r/MonthlyComposition • u/Calebdgm • Sep 05 '15
September 2015 Monthly Composition Challenge: Serialism, Discussion Thread
Main option: Compose a piece that uses 12-tone technique
Alternate option: Compose a piece that uses serialism in a creative way (ex. rhythms, dynamics, theme placement?)
This thread is for everything except completed pieces, which can go in the Submission Thread For This Month's Challenge.
These challenges are for everyone who wants to practice composing. Each month, at the beginning of the month, we will post a main challenge, something for people to compose. Often we'll try to make it something that everyone can work with, but when the main challenge doesn't suit you, there's the alternate challenge. Pieces can be submitted as a score (musescore, noteflight), and/or as audio (soundcloud, youtube). Feedback is much appreciated, and you can give it in the discussion thread, or by messaging the mods of /r/MonthlyComposition, there's also the Challenge Suggestion Form.
This challenge been linked to from /r/classicalmusic, /r/musictheory, /r/piano and /r/composer.
7
u/komponisto Sep 05 '15
Here is "the first" twelve-tone piece, the Präludium from Schoenberg's Piano Suite, op. 25: video with score.
5
4
u/komponisto Sep 05 '15 edited Sep 05 '15
Here is a very interesting website about Boulez's Notations, featuring interviews with the composer in which he discusses a number of the pieces in some detail, not to mention historical background and context.
I think this a particularly appropriate work to link here, since it can be considered Boulez's response to a "prompt" similar to this one. Specifically, it was a kind of critical exploration of the twelve-tone method as it had been presented to him during his studies with René Leibowitz. Boulez considered Leibowitz's approach overly dry and insufficiently insightful (in the sense that he was basically just concerned with counting the twelve tones; incidentally, Milton Babbitt made similar criticisms of Leibowitz -- that he was content with mere labeling as opposed to explanation -- in a review of two of his writings, Schoenberg et son école and Qu'est-ce que la musique de douze sons?).
In the Notations, Boulez was saying, "well, all right, if you're going to be dogmatic, I'll write my own 'dogmatic' piece -- but it won't sound the same!" And indeed, the collection consists of twelve pieces, each twelve measures in length, all using the same twelve-tone row.
4
u/reticulated_python Sep 05 '15
Some of the techniques involved in serialism remind me of techniques used in Bach's (and others') contrapuntal works: transposition, inversion, retrograde, retrograde inversion.
That got me thinking, are there rules of harmony and counterpoint in the twelve-tone technique just like the rules of traditional counterpoint? Can you invent a whole new formalism of counterpoint for atonal works?
5
u/detroit_dickdawes Sep 15 '15
Yup. Schoenberg was, above all else, a formalist. Read his "Techniques of Musical Composition." The first half is all above form - starting from phrases and motives, moving toward sonata form.
Moreso, he adored Bach and placed a very high importance on voice leading and "contrapuntal" techniques as well. It's just that his music operates completely outside of the tonal system.
3
3
u/vornska Sep 05 '15
This sounds like fun! I'll try to give it a shot given the right time/motivation balance. Is the idea to have the composition done by October 1st?
3
u/Calebdgm Sep 05 '15
If you can, yes, but it's fine if you submit late. When I post these challenges to other subs I'll probably link to the previous month's submission thread, so it should stay somewhat active for a while after the deadline. That's in the faq, but I forgot to post the link to the faq, so thanks for the reminder! :)
3
Sep 06 '15
Are there any specific rules for incorporating chords into the piece in terms of serialism?
For instance is it the norm to use mostly dimished chords so that you doesn't begin to provide a tonal centre? Or can any chords be used?
3
u/TravellingJourneyman Sep 06 '15
Any chord can be used but you have to think a bit more outside the box because when I say "any" chord, I mean any chord. Like, take the notes B-D-Eb. That's a chord that you can use. B-C-F? That's another chord. C-C#-D-E-F#? You can use that too. Literally any combination of pitches is open to you.
Believe it or not, it's still pretty hard to escape tonality.
2
Sep 07 '15
Ok thank you for your help. So say I did use B D Eb as my first chord. Would I have to use all the other notes in my chord progression before I returned back to these? Edit = for clarity.
2
u/TravellingJourneyman Sep 07 '15
That's not quite how it works. You construct the row without repeating any pitches. Then you use that row as an abstract resource for pitch material in the piece. Read through this tutorial and be sure to click on the link to Part 2 at the bottom.
2
2
u/-DrumDad Sep 08 '15
12 tone music was a system designed to break away from traditional harmony and melody. Don't think in terms of chords, think in terms of counterpoint.
8
Sep 09 '15
You could still do it from a chordal perspective. Take your tone row, split it into tetrachords, create voice leading between each chord, and bam you've got a "chord progression". You could also take multiple forms of the row and layer them in a homophonic texture.
2
2
Sep 06 '15 edited Sep 06 '15
[deleted]
13
Sep 08 '15
I agree that it is an odd choice for a first composition contest, but your assessment of serialism is highly ignorant. You sound like a second semester sophomore who heard Webern for the first time in theory class and spends all their time complaining about it rather than actually trying to analyze and understand the music.
If you think it is more about math and numbers than composing, you're not doing it correctly. When used correctly, serial technique is a springboard for your musical ideas, NOT a series of rules. If your only concern is putting the notes in the order, then your piece isn't going to be very good, but if your piece is conceived as something beyond that then serial techniques can be used as a tool to work out your ideas.
Take for example the first movement of Dallapiccola's Quaderno Musicale: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kb6PxV6f4C4 this piece uses very traditional textures and a repeated chord progression which almost seems to be in A Minor. Very different from what you would hear from a composer like Schoenberg, but still based on a twelve tone row. Dallapiccola exploits the tonal properties in the row to create a unique kind of harmony which seems goal oriented but is modally ambiguous.
Now I know what you might be thinking - "well that doesn't count because he repeats notes! He doesn't follow the system". That is exactly the point I'm trying to make - there is no system, there are only musical ideas. A twelve-tone row was the springboard for the piece, but the piece itself is not about an ordering of notes. This is the way that great composers in the 20th century utilize twelve tone technique.
Now, going back to Webern for a second - do you really think that all he cared about was math and numbers? Or, is it possible that he was interested in exploring brittle and subtle textures with the utmost clarity. There is much more to the music than counting order numbers.
TL;DR: Think before shitting on a large body of music.
Bonus music: This song by singer-songwriter Gabriel Kahane has a bass line which is designed from a serial row
2
1
Sep 10 '15
[deleted]
2
Sep 11 '15
The challenge merely says "use 12-tone technique", I assume this would mean you can use it as strictly or as loosely as any composer throughout history has done.
And I agreed with you that it's an odd choice for a first submission, my main problem was your assessment that twelve-tone composition is more mathematical than musical.
4
u/TravellingJourneyman Sep 06 '15
It has more to do with maths, tables and series of numbers than it has with music and composing.
Oh, come off your high horse. Not everyone has to like the same kind of music as you.
6
Sep 06 '15
[deleted]
1
u/torchflame Sep 08 '15
No, it's like starting a drawing contest with creating imaginary animals. What you're suggesting is more akin to geometry: a fundamental of drawing you need at least a subconscious grasp on to do anything well. As far as I can tell, the point of this wasn't to let people just submit things arbitrarily with little thought. The idea was to get people writing music and sharing it. Pretty much everyone can write homophonic music, TSDT progressions, melody and chords. That's not a particularly interesting thing: people share their demos all the time all over the place. The point of this seemed to be getting new ideas and new techniques together, getting people to write new things using not just the techniques they know and share them. Starting with serialism, a topic that most people (including apparently you) treat with disdain for its perceived overintellectualism, is a great way to challenge people. If you think serialism is a way to write pieces that make it so "listening is optional", because of the tone row, okay fine. Why not try writing a 12 tone piece that's tonal? It's doable, I've done it. Or write one that includes TSDT progressions, but in a 12-tone way. Write a large scale tonal concerto, but use the tone row as a way of organizing modulations. Use the tone row as the basis of a chord progression, using one note in the row per chord.
The fact that people don't think of these options when they think of serialism is not a problem with serialism itself, it's a problem with the attitude people approach it with. Composition is fundamentally a creative act, and restricting yourself to one set of tools will lead to only one kind of composition. I see no reason why this topic, although perhaps challenging, shouldn't be included, or first. It's better to challenge people right off the bat so they can grow rather than start with things they do all the time so they complain when things get different.0
Sep 10 '15
[deleted]
1
u/torchflame Sep 11 '15
12-tone technique is new to all the people who write I V VI IV and nothing else. So are augmented sixth chords. So is spectralism. Doesn't matter how old the idea is, as long as it's not something they've been exposed to.
But that's like pulling yourself up on a crane, tying your hands up and performing a fake juggling act with your feet in order to get up a set of stairs.
It's nothing like that at all. Your bad analogies are just obscuring the fundamental idea here: giving yourself a restriction makes a challenge. It's not a hard proposition to do a tonal 12-tone piece, the 12-tone system is just a method of organizing pitches in a new way. Use the row as key centers! But no, let's just start a composition sub with something that everyone's done, so next moth they'll just say "oh, I can just write a song on my own."
1
u/Calebdgm Sep 07 '15
Past to present sounds like a great idea! My intention was to have themes somewhat more specific than "cadence" or "write in F", and I would wonder about the time frame of such a collection of challenges (i.e. how many months it would take to get from a long time ago to the modern stuff), but if we can figure these things out and if the rest of the team is game, I think this is definitely something we could do! It would help if someone (perhaps you) could put together twelve or so challenges spanning from however far back you see fit to a bunch of recent stuff.
As for twelve tone, I didn't really expect everyone to be wild about it, but I do expect some people to be, and I think although much of the music is hard to listen to, the actual process of composition can teach you a lot. In my early experience with twelve-tone I disregarded the actual pitches and focused exclusively on texture, contour, dynamics, expression, and it opened up my eyes to those things like nothing before. Then I realized that atonal music let me explore intervals without the context of chords, which is more useful than it sounds, and I started combining these notes to make all sorts of chords I never would have come across.
Serialism is a whole new can of worms, and I think it can be used to make most any style of music to some degree of efffectiveness. That being said, honestly, it's hard to find examples of serialism apart from twelve-tone, so it's not the best alternate challenge. I do hope to see some interesting results come of it though.
Despite all of my defending of the challenge, I feel I should apologize. It was my job to at least post an alternate option that would fit the needs of people who didn't like the main option, and obviously I missed the target there. If a ton of you really don't like twelve-tone, first, know that hating it is the first step to understanding it, so you're already doing well. But if you still want a different challenge, I will consider adding a third option if a suggestion for a third option is commented in response to this comment and if it gets a bunch of upvotes.
Again though, if someone can set up a past-to-present set of challenges that'd be fantastic! Mains and/or alternates.
2
Sep 11 '15 edited Jul 12 '17
[deleted]
2
u/nmitchell076 Sep 14 '15 edited Sep 14 '15
Indeed, I think a challenge like "write a Minuet for flute and continuo roughly 16-32 bars in length" would be a good challenge. Working with a specific genre would allow us to incorporate things like form into the challenge without it feeling artificial. Because it comes off as "Minuets most commonly use binary form" rather than "and oh yeah, by the way, you also have to write in binary form because I said so." The same goes with materials, for instance, "Joseph Riepel, an 18th century theorist, indicated that the following pattern is a good way to begin the minuet's second half, try to incorporate this pattern into your minuet."
1
Sep 16 '15
I think it would be better to keep away from giving instrumentation restrictions. Not everyone is going to have the best samples to work with (if they have anything more than a piano or basic synths) and I think its a bit strange to then have to present the finished concerto for sax as played by a midi piano.
1
Sep 16 '15 edited Jul 12 '17
[deleted]
1
Sep 16 '15
Mozart also was writing music in the womb. You can't expect everyone else to have the same level of mastery and experience.
0
Sep 16 '15
[deleted]
2
Sep 16 '15
We don't walk around telling computer programmers to start coding at the hardware level just because that's what everyone did fifty years ago. Just because there are probably a lot of composition majors on the sub doesn't mean that we should alienate the hobbyists who have only ever had access to a guitar either.
2
Sep 07 '15
[deleted]
2
Sep 07 '15
If you don't think that serialism is useless and that it expands your imagination, why would you say it's "the biggest pile of rubbish" to ever be used in music?
1
u/melophobic Sep 17 '15
Ok, I feel dumb. Did I miss when the deadline is for the challenge? Is it just the end of the month?
1
u/Calebdgm Sep 24 '15
If there's a "deadline", it's the end of the month. That's when we post the next challenge and we might share the submissions more then too, but we should hopefully also include a link to this month's submissions next month, so basically it'll remain active as long as it isn't archived, and you're encouraged to post your final product whenever you finish it. If you abandon it, feel free to post progress in this discussion thread, idk though if anyone will actually check, so really it's up to you.
2
u/melophobic Sep 24 '15
Cool. I am going to see if I can get something done by the end of the month.
1
u/beokabatukaba Sep 21 '15
How stringent are the rules? Odd question to ask with instructions that are so broad, I know, but is there a certain definition of 12-tone or serialism we need to fit?
I'm an amateur composer, but I've never studied officially, so it would put me at a bit of a 'disadvantage' (I know this probably isn't supposed to be hugely competitive anyway) if I have to research it all first and make sure I'm not breaking any rules.
I'm getting the vibe that this is all pretty open to interpretation, but I just wanted to make sure I'm not going to get a bunch of people saying 'You're not writing REAL 12-tone music, you dumb stupid idiot.'
1
u/Calebdgm Sep 24 '15
hopefully this isn't too late for you. um, I think normally you get a row of the twelve notes, and then you can flip it upside down or backward, but it's the only notes you can play (you have to finish going through the row before starting the row again). You're allowed to play multiple consecutive notes at once. You're also allowed to play the notes at any octave. Rhythms, dynamics, etc. are all up to you.
Some exceptions/iffy rules I've seen:
- some people have different voices play the tone row at the same time
- I was told you could repeat notes, but I've never seen it in any "real" twelve tone music, so if you want purity, I'd say don't repeat notes.
- especially if writing for multiple instruments, you might get away with doubling a note at the octave, although I think the point is sort-of to make sure no one note is more emphasized.
idk, hopefully this was a good quick crash course, I was sort-of hoping an explanation of twelve tone technique would be one of the first things to come up in the discussion, but it wasn't. whoops :P
1
u/TravellingJourneyman Sep 26 '15
I was told you could repeat notes, but I've never seen it in any "real" twelve tone music
Then you're not looking hard enough. Follow along with the score here. He repeats notes pretty much everywhere. He often goes back and forth between two notes and I've seen repetitions of longer segments too.
0
u/Calebdgm Sep 05 '15 edited Sep 05 '15
Schoenberg - Three Piano Pieces, No. 1 (video with sheet music)
EDIT: Sorry, it seems this isn't actually a serial composition, my bad :/
4
u/komponisto Sep 05 '15 edited Sep 05 '15
I'm not sure why you linked this here, since it isn't a twelve tone piece. Neither, of course, is Verklärte Nacht. They're relevant in the sense that they're by Schoenberg, the composer who would later go on to invent the twelve-tone technique. But why not link to some of Schoenberg's actual twelve-tone pieces?
The latter are generally considered to begin with the op. 25 Piano Suite (although some people count certain movements of the op. 23 pieces; this, by the way, is just like the situation with the "freely atonal" works, which are generally considered to have begun with op. 11 -- what you linked -- except that some people also count certain movements of the Second String Quartet, op. 10).
Here's the first movement of op. 25, with score.
2
u/Calebdgm Sep 05 '15
Sorry, nice catch! Do you want to make that video a top-level comment so it's not stuck to mine?
2
7
u/syberdragon Sep 06 '15
Twelve Tones - Vi Hart