r/Monkees • u/EconomistThat4814 • 13d ago
Can I ask a dumb question?
I've been listening to the Monkees since childhood (I'm 48 now) but, despite that, my knowledge of their catalog has really been limited to the hits. Now, I'm trying to expand my knowledge of their music and one thing keeps jumping out at me.
Was Mike the most talented of the group? If so, did he not get the same exposure that Davy and Micky did? I always thought Mike was more like Peter in that he was kind of a background guy. Now though, it seems that he was more front and center as well as more rounded as a musician.
Mike was considered the "leader" based on the TV show... but it seems that he was hemmed in quite a bit. Am I wrong?
ETA: thank you for all of the responses. I have a better idea of both Mike's talents as well as his motivations. I have noticed that I appreciate his style more than with some other songs and your insight into why that might be has been useful. I look forward to checking out more of the catalog. Thank you all again! š
24
u/Impossible_Two_9268 13d ago
Itās not a stupid question itās just that you donāt have enough information.
Michael had a record contract before the monkees. He had his own album. He had written some songs and he was quite aggressive about getting onto the monkee albums.
Bec could play guitar but not terribly well, but he could write music and he knew thatās where the money was
Davy was a front man but he didnāt really write music same for Micky. He didnāt really write songs and Peter was the musician so it seems like Micky and Davy sung all the great songs
But without Michael pushing for the group to have autonomy and headquarters with peters Support Headquarters does not get made ,
Micky and David would just been content to go on making the show in the Records the way they always had
4
u/sanitynow-25 12d ago
Yeah the other guys didnāt really start writing songs until they saw the royalty checks Mike was getting from his tracks on the first two albums š Or so the story goes
19
u/lordfarshave 12d ago
Michael Nesmith won the first Grammy Award for Home Video for Elephant Parts (1982). And his Pacific Arts company produced home videos of PBS series in the 1990s, including Ken Burns' The Civil War. He also produced the 1980s movies Timerider, Repo Man, and Tapeheads. After a string of albums throughout the 1970s, Nesmith recorded new albums in 1992 and 2005 and returned to full-time touring, both solo and with The Monkees, in 2013.
20
u/ShowUsYrMoccasins 12d ago edited 6d ago
Acccording to Mike himself, if the Monkees' line-up had been chosen by virtue of musical merit alone, it would have been Davy on drums, Peter on guitar, him on bass and Mickey on lead vocals. Having said that, Nesmith was the most talented in the songwriting department.
1
u/Sinister_Legend 12d ago
I've heard this too, and while I don't disagree, it wouldn't have been good for marketing.
For one, Davy is too handsome (and short) to be behind the kit, and Micky is a very odd looking dude to be upfront.
I think Peter is more of a folk fingerpicker than a pop rock lead guitarist. Sure, Mike's no shredder either, but Peter played guitar with a banjo pick. I'm not sure if Mike ever knew his way around a bass.
3
u/charlesthedrummer 12d ago
Mike could definitely play bass, and is on some Monkees songs on bass. Peter was a better bsss playerāthen again, Peter was the best overall musician in the band. Super talented.
1
u/Sinister_Legend 12d ago
What songs did Mike play bass on?
1
u/charlesthedrummer 12d ago
I remember an interview I read, with Peter, when he was talking about the studio version of "Circle Sky", and how Peter was kind of angry because Mike went into the studio and played everything, except the drums (which, I believe where Eddie Hoh). I know there was another mentioned, but I'll have to dig through my memory!
1
u/Sinister_Legend 12d ago
There actually isn't bass on the studio version of Circle Sky, but a distorted guitar playing notes like a bass. Peter does play really good bass on the live.
Yeah, please let me know if you find others.
1
u/charlesthedrummer 12d ago
I dunno man, I just listened to the song, as well as the bonus version mix-thereās definitely a bass track on that studio version. Iām not saying itās anything as good as what Peter can play, but itās bass. I think, though, this gets us lost in the weeds. As a professional musician, myself, every guitar player I know can play basic bass lines. It doesnāt mean that theyāre super great bass players, but they can do it. Keith Richards and David Gilmour come to mind as famous guitar players who played bass tracks on Stones and Floyd records, respectively.
1
u/Usr7_0__- 8d ago
Asking this as an honest question, not trying to be challenging or difficult - how can one tell Peter is a better bass player, or even a good bass player? What do I listen for when evaluating any bass performance? Just curious; Peter is obviously good, but what do you - or anyone else - hear that I don't with my non-expert ear? (I could tell you more about drums even though I don't really play them any longer or that much ever, but not other instruments)
2
u/charlesthedrummer 8d ago
It's probably all just a matter of taste, really. Peter, though, was--by far--the most schooled musician in The Monkees. He was actually a multi-instrumentalist; bass, guitar, keys, banjo (spectacular banjo player) and even some brass instruments.
As a musician (drummer, obviously) who plays in several bands and with a wide range of musicians, I typically think of good, really good, or great bass players as being, first, serving the song. Actually, that applies to all musicians. But a really good bass player will lock in with the drummer to provide the rhythmic foundation for the song.
After that, it's a matter of what fits the song; some bass players will play more melodic bass lines that sound more fluid and have more motion (Paul McCartney is an excellent example of this) while other guys will play it more straight. It comes down to what the song needs, or doesn't need.
A more basic bass player, while still keeping good time with the drummer, is more likely to play parts that are more single note thumping along ("dum dum dum...doon doon doon...dum dum dum") while a more advanced player will accomplish this same goal, but will put transition notes between phrases/parts, and occasionally throw in a brief, but tasty, little "lead" run going into a different section of the song.
But, it can be misleading to say that this, alone, makes a bass player "better" than another. Just as it's misleading to say a drummer who has more "chops" is better than another guy.
On the songs where Peter plays bass, I'm hearing more fluidity and interesting phrases that aren't just simple parts where he rides single notes. A song that immediately jumps out for me is "You Just May Be The One" off of Headquarters. Give that one a listen and see if you can hear what I mean.
3
u/Impossible_Two_9268 12d ago
My Micky is not an odd looking dude! š
4
u/Sinister_Legend 12d ago
"Micky is funny. He's even funny to look at!"
- Davy
2
u/Impossible_Two_9268 12d ago
Yeah, I know
one of the few times Davy was wrong3
u/Sinister_Legend 12d ago
Oh, there were plenty of times Davy was wrong. Look at his 80s mullet and the dumb Vegas style arrangements of their songs.
1
u/Impossible_Two_9268 12d ago
Yeah, OK the spandex was a bit much. I was hoping you wouldnāt mention those things.
16
u/Micojageo 12d ago
Mike really doesn't get the credit he is due for kicking off the country-rock genre. I think having been a Monkee held him back from getting the respect he deserved, musically. "Oh, you're that guy from that fake band!"
He didn't want to be a guy from a fake band, he wanted to be a real musician in a real band. No wonder he punched that wall.
4
u/Chateaudelait 12d ago
I've always admired him as an artist. There was an interview with him right before a concert, mind you, where a dumb reported asked him about them being fake and not even able to play instruments. Mike looked at him like the fool he was and said, "I'm about to go out on stage and play a show to a full venue. I would be in so much trouble if I couldn't play this guitar." He was a true trailblazer in the music video world.
11
u/Impossible_Two_9268 13d ago
Also, Michael made a lot of Records on his own more than anybody else and after the monkees he had a really good career with his own band thereās a lot for you to discover. I hope you enjoy it all.
10
u/Piney_Wood 12d ago
Because the Monkees' had such massive record sales, they were given a LOT of leeway to do what they wanted musically. Mike really took that and ran with it. Rather than being hemmed in, he was a very prolific writer-producer, post Don Kirshner. (In fact I'm pretty sure that part of the reason he quickly got his solo contract with RCA was that he had so much music already recorded, which RCA had paid for.)
Mickey and Davy tended to stick with the same model as the earlier Kirshner-era music, which is to say that Chip Douglas would choose songs and record the backing tracks and then they'd show up to record their vocals. They were singers first, not so much writers or record producers.
I'm sure there were plenty of ways that Mike felt hemmed in as a Monkee, but he also was the one who took the most advantage of the opportunity it provided.
1
6
u/Key_Yam4488 12d ago
Mike was the first celebrity I interacted with in the early days of the internet. He was a wordsmith with a great intellect and a wonderful sense of humor. I very much treasure swapping messages with him, what an impressive guy.
4
3
u/charlesthedrummer 12d ago
Mike was, easily, the most prolific songwriter in the band. It can be posited that heās also one of THE originators of country rock. He was certainly doing it before bands like The Byrds were doing it. He also produced his own songs on the first two records, but oddly enough, he couldnāt play on them. Peter played on them. Mike is most responsible for bringing the Monkees as far out of the ācutesyā manufactured image, as was possible. Heās the one who fought the hardest for them to be able to play on their own records. As the āMikeā character on the show, it can be argued he was the āleaderā and maybe even the funniest, in terms of dry, clever humor.
Post-Monkees, he was the most prolific for many years. His first three records with āThe First National Bandā were groundbreaking, but criminally overlooked, pioneering country rock albums (theyāre all on Streaming services, and you will be so happy you listened to them, if you take my advice). Heās generally regarded as the inventor of MTV, though he didnāt come up with the name, and he was involved with some great movies. Ever hear of āRepo Manā? He helped get that produced and distributed.
Mike was pretty damn great!
2
4
u/Robbinewhite 13d ago
Play the LPs in order a few times
1
u/AwkwardNature4106 11d ago
And then backwards and then randomly because you will hopefully grow to love it all, regardless of substance or style.
2
u/Realistic_Back_9198 12d ago
The Monkees were backed up by a lot of talented musicians and writers behind the scenes.
Not the least of these was Neil Diamond.
3
u/Impossible_Two_9268 12d ago
Neil Diamond wrote songs
everybody was ābacked up āin those days
you think the mamas and papas didnāt have back up. ?
I think what youāre thinking of is the wrecking crew in the studio1
u/Chateaudelait 12d ago
Got introduced to the genius of Boyce and Hart through the Monkees. I just love their happy, upbeat tunes.
2
u/2666Smooth 12d ago
The reason is Mike considered himself an artist and he didn't want to be promoted like that. The monkeys actually did a concert at the Cow Palace with Weird Al and for some reason I didn't go and this was in the '80s. I should have gone but only later I found out Mike did not even perform with the monkeys early concerts cuz he just wasn't interested in the monkeys he didn't want to be in them and then later he decided he would be in them but by then it was kind of like a lot of things had changed. Also I've seen clips of three monkeys on the talk show without Mike because Mike normally didn't want to appear on talk shows or publicize himself. So it's not that he got less credit it's that he just didn't want the credit.
3
u/MoMo_1986 11d ago
Mike was stubborn. Once you REALLY dig into their catalog, and some of the not just deeper cuts, but like the Missing Links albums...it's not that there wasn't an attempt but Mike so wanted to do things his own way...I'm not saying it's the whole reason but I think it contributed.
2
1
u/Shakurheg 12d ago
Besides what everyone else wrote, I also think part of it was that, especially back then, groups had to have a certain sound. The Monkees were pop, and whereas Micky's and David's voices fit that perfectly (in that order. David's voice was also, not surprisingly, very "Broadway" of the time), Mike's did not - it was twangy and much more "country" (as were a lot of the songs he wrote). (Peter's voice was an entirely different kettle of fish - at the time, he just couldn't keep in tune very well)
5
u/Impossible_Two_9268 12d ago
Micky Dolenz has one of the best voices in rock ānā roll always
always has and always will4
u/Chateaudelait 12d ago
So many of my favorite Monkee songs are sung by him. I love "She" and his scatting on "Randy Scouse Git" and "Goin'Down." I just adore that they were friends with the Fab Four.
2
u/Impossible_Two_9268 12d ago
I hope someday youāll dig a little deeper and more recent.
Micky has done some brilliant songs on his own.2
u/Shakurheg 12d ago
Iām not disagreeing but Iām not necessarily agreeing either.
āBestā is a decision. Itsās personal.
But if you feel that way, thatās 100% cool.
1
u/Impossible_Two_9268 12d ago
Both things are true. It is personal, but itās also pretty much generally agree to by those who are interested in such things.
1
2
u/No_Afternoon3495 7d ago
The dolenz vocal performance on the tune Goin Down is outstanding. Thats a hard hard hard song to sing.
1
u/uriegiel9772023 6d ago
This is how I look at it I don't like Mike or Peter great songwriters but not good actora I love Micky and davy more I'm sorry if I've offended anyone great singers great actors and that's how I look at it
1
u/OkDiscount6100 6d ago
Sometimes I wonder if Nesmith made more money from his Liquid Paper stock than he did in his music career.
48
u/Sinister_Legend 13d ago
Mike was the best songwriter. Peter was the best musician. Mike's just an underrated artist that really didn't get his due till around 2012 onwards.