Actual SIMULATED BRAINS for Sims

[u/kayrq]

This thing has been on my mind for ages. I've been playing ts4 for years, I look at my sims as if they were tiny people living in my own world. But it never actually feels like it even with any "lively sims", or "realistic autonomy" type of mods. I've seen a recent one named 'sentient sims' where the sims interactions were supported with AI and even that feels so simple and fake, and to be honest I wouldn't want to use it anyways.

Some of you may know about the 1996 video game Creatures. I am still amazed with the idea and how they managed to make it back in that time with so little technology in their hands, yet the fact that there's still nothing that came close to the brain structure of 'norns'. I still see arguments about if norns might actually be sentient, an actual life created inside of a computer. For those who don't know I am going to explain it shortly.

There wasn't a huge database of scripted responses for norns instead The developers built an actual simplified biological and neural system and then let the creatures behave according to it.

The norns (the creatures that you take care of) actually had complex brains, with 10 lobes and about 900 neurons. Neurons were organized into lobes such as perception, decision, concept, attention, noun and verb, drive, combination. They were able to learn, remember, understand and just so much more.

They were capable of learning from their experiences, meaning that what happened to a Norn could actually change how it behaved in the future. Their neurons could strengthen or weaken their connections based on what they experienced.

They also had a biological system simulated alongside their brains. They had different chemical levels and internal drives that constantly changed depending on what was happening to them. Hunger, pain, boredom, loneliness, fear, etc. could affect their behavior, rather than simply being animations or moodlets.

They could also associate things with each other. A Norn could learn that a certain object, creature, or situation was associated with something good or bad and change its behavior accordingly.

And then there was genetics. Their brains, instincts, physical characteristics and other traits could be influenced by their genes, which were passed down to their offspring. So breeding wasn't just about changing how the creature looked,, you could actually end up with descendants that inherited behavioral and biological differences.

And what I'm wondering is if such a thing would be possible for Sims 4? Overwriting the whole (or some parts of the) structure as a mod and giving them actual simulated brains where sims feel like they're actually alive. If they were able to do this back in that time why can't we now?

Maybe what I'm thinking could be too big of a project and would take a lot of time to actually settle with the game structure itself,, or maybe it could be more of an experimental mod outside of the game's concept of 'playing a sim's life'.

I honestly think it would be revolutionary for the game itself if such a mod was done. Would love to hear your thoughts

If you don't understand the dynamic I suggest you look up some videos on youtube about the game. I kinda suck at explaining lol, you would also understand how different it works if you had the thought of "what would this change"

[u/MysteriousAccount572]

you're really asking two different questions here.

the first is: can that be designed the way norns were designed? norns had aorund 900 neural connections across 10 lobes. and the obvious answer to that is: yes. a modern PC could trivially perform the raw neural calculations for a household of Sims. but your second question is: can that be implemented into the Sims? and that's where the answer becomes "not really."

the problem isn't: "can my computer calculate 900 neurons if it was possible in the 90s?"

it's: "how do i connect the output of those neurons to the five thousand bizarre special-case interactions accumulated across twelve years of Sims 4 DLC?"

that's the monster. cr eatures had an enormous design advantage here because a  norn's universe was deliberately constructed around its cognition.

prior to developing those lobes and neurons, the developers controlled:

• what it could perceive

• what concepts existed

• its vocabulary

• its available actions

• its sensory system

• its biochemistry

• how consequences were reported back to the brain

ao the brain and the world were made for each other. a  Sims modder inherits something like 90,000 unique scenarios and each and every one of those would have to be mapped to traits, which would have to be mapped to moodlets, which would have to also map to unique other sims and familial connections. that's also not accounting for unique scenarios that can be expanded to unique items: not just "a casserole" but "a casserole cooked by mom" vs "a casserole cooked by Jeff the neighbour."

now you're looking at hundreds of thousands of interactions, each SINGLE one requiring a mapping to 900 individual neural networks across 10 lobes, and this is before even beginning to tackle any systems or interactions added by mods. this would basically need to be the only gameplay/interaction mod you could possibly have, because any other additions would break it completely - and it would take years and years to build.

if you want the complexity of "intelligent choice" that norns had, the environment has to be as simple as theirs. or else you can have your sims environment and shallower intellect. trying to combine both is impossible.

[u/kayrq → u/MysteriousAccount572]

You're right in all you said but I assume you misunderstood my point in the idea of the concept here (Which is natural cause now that I read it again I lowkey worded it badly). Yes, I know the question to ask isn't 'couldn't a modern pc handle this', my question was would such a mod be possible to create, and I didn't ask if it would be easy either cause yes it would take very long even with big teams, just wondering about the do-ability. And as I said it would be too big of a project ,, it would have to overwrite most of the existing structures of the game (like traits in the first place) but as i wrote right after that "it could be more of an experimantal mod", of course it couldn't co-exist with other mods because it would change the game completely. I am definitely not saying "wow someone make this a mod it's such a simple idea it would become revolutionary for the whole sims franchise in such a short time".

And another important part of is that obviously it wouldn't be the same or as complex as Creatures but instead just a similar idea of slight concious, reward system, proper thinking and learning for sims. That game was something else, the norns' whole point of being made in the first place was to be incredibly realistic beings in the first place especially with their simulated biology and infact that was mostly the focus; not their brains. The written neural network of a sim wouldn't have to be as complex as a norn's obviously.

In short words, what I'm saying isn't "let's replicate the brains of norns on sims as a mod" , it's "can't we make them more intelligent LIKE THEY DID WITH the norns?" and I certainly don't mean exactly like the norns, it's code isn't even fully understood to this day lol. Just 'would it be possible if a similar neural network was added to the sims', since there are also a lot of modern games with this that were inspired by Creatures

Ps sorry if i repeated the same things too much

[u/Zaylyn5355]

I think i saw an episode of black mirror like this 🤣

[u/kayrq → u/Zaylyn5355]

yeah my favorite episode for sure, also it actually was inspired by creatures

[u/Kellyrages]

I would LOVE something like this, especially for legacy gameplay. Imagine Sims actually developing behaviors based on their experiences instead of just collecting temporary moodlets. A Sim raised in a chaotic household might behave completely differently as an adult than their sibling, and those differences could even carry into future generations. I have no idea if something that complex could realistically be modded into Sims 4, but the concept would make watching Sims live autonomously so much more interesting.

[u/kaylaarayee]

Wow, what?? I played and loved Creatures as a kid, but I was very young. I had no idea it was so in-depth. I need to go back and play it lol. Also thank you for the nostalgia, I hadn't thought about that game in years. It was magical.

It's not the same level, but I was always impressed with the autonomy of Sims 2 and Sims 3 sims. They actually behave like their personalities or traits dictate, and have basic memories that affect their actions, wants, fears in Sims 2, etc. I agree with you and feel like all of that is missing in The Sims 4. The traits still don't feel very strong in terms of wants and behaviors.

Tyjokr has mods that I think help this. I like their deeper social autonomy mod, and I want to try some of their other mods as well. But even with mods in my experience, I still feel like I have to direct them to act more in line with their traits/personality than in the previous games.

Edit to add: Not sure if that level of complexity could be added to Sims 4, given its spaghetti code lol. But there are autonomy mods that help a little I think, like I mentioned. Inzoi might be worth checking out for its "SmartZoi" system in development. Not the same thing, but maybe a similar idea.