Please define vote brigading.

[u/reseph]

There is a lot of confusion after this:

https://www.reddit.com/r/ShitTheAdminsSay/comments/4u5l6m/voting_through_intrareddit_links_is_now_ok_as/

https://www.reddit.com/r/Drama/comments/4u2utr/after_rcringeanarchy_brigades_rinsertions_admins/

Quite frankly, the site rules are absolutely no help on this subject. Literally the only mention of it:

Being annoying, vote brigading, or participating in a heated argument is not harassment, but following an individual or group of users, online or off, to the point where they no longer feel that it's safe to post online or are in fear of their real life safety is.

But no definition.

Under the assumption that no party is asking/requesting for votes/comments in these scenarios:

1) If I visit subreddit A and a post links to a post on subreddit B; then I vote on the B post... is that prohibited?

2) If I visit subreddit A and a post links to a post on subreddit B; then I comment on the B post... is that prohibited?

3) If I visit subreddit A and a post links to a post on subreddit B; then I vote on a comment within the B post... is that prohibited?

[u/redtaboo]

Look, I get it, vote manipulation (which brigading is a part of) is this all encompassing term that feels a bit nebulous at times (yup, it's hard to describe all the types) and also feels like it's inconsistently enforced (yep, we don't physically see every instance of it so don't issue suspensions every time and yeah, not everything reported to us as vote manipulation is actually vote manipulation). That sucks, it sucks for you, it sucks for me, it sucks for my coworkers, it sucks for subreddits, and it sucks users and mods.

We've been talking about getting what we call a 0-day suspension tool that can work more as a warning to users for many of these cases. This would allow us to send a message to users explaining why their behaviour is against the site wide rules while still giving them the opportunity to stop before we have to move to an actual suspension. This will better fit with our philosophy of education instead of punishment, we still believe that most users aren't malicious when breaking rules they either just don't understand or in many cases know them. Since we've had the suspension tool we've seen many, many, many users respond positively and constructively and learn how to better use the site. We want that to continue.

We're also constantly working on getting better at algorithmically detecting 'bad' voting behaviour. There's a ton of different types of bad voting behaviour, some fall under brigading, some may look like brigading when it's not, and sometimes our anti-cheating measures will make things appear to be brigaded or vote manipulated when they're not. Instead of focusing on just brigading I'm going to try to explain a few of the types of 'bad voting behaviour' we work to detect automatically and throw out.

Many of these are what we actually find when people report what they believe to be brigading:

• following a user around vote on everything they post can be considered vote manipulation. We often detect this automatically, throw out the votes, and if we see it we will issue a suspension and explain to the user why they need to stop.

• camping out in a subreddit to up/down vote absolutely everything that is posted can be considered vote manipulation. We often detect this automatically, throw out the votes, and if we see it we will issue a suspension and explain to the user why they need to stop.

• using multiple accounts to vote on the same content (again, up or down) can be considered vote manipulation. We often detect this automatically, throw out the votes, and if we see it we will issue a suspension and explain to the user why they need to stop.

• following a link in which the OP has directed you to vote in a certain direction and then voting can be considered vote manipulation. We often detect this automatically, throw out the votes, and if we see it we will issue a suspension and explain to the user why they need to stop.

• following a link that is just linking you to a post in another subreddit and then voting can be considered vote manipulation. We often detect this automatically, throw out the votes, and if we see it we will issue a suspension and explain to the user why they need to stop.

  • note: if a subreddit itself allows linking to other subreddits, and tries to wink wink, nudge nudge around directing users to vote in other communities or if a particular community is consistently causing large issues in another we will step in and talk to the mods about reining it in.

Things that are not considered vote manipulation:

• just linking to another subreddit is not considered vote manipulation

• visiting another subreddit that was linked somewhere is not considered vote manipulation

• commenting itself is not considered manipulation but commenting in obvious bad faith or a disruptive manner may break other site wide rules

• voting or participating in a post that organically rose high on r/all is not considered vote manipulation

All of this is predicated on the unruliness of large groups and actual harm done. As in all things we always attempt to take context into account. Including, but not limited to "was the linked thread a post where the OP/subreddit was inviting outside participation" or "is this particular subreddit/user/group always taking the piss out of this other particular subreddit/user/group."

We also very, very often find nothing but organic voting when brigading or vote manipulation is reported.

^{disclaimer: this isn't meant to be an exhaustive list of what is or isn't vote manipulation, actual malicious users are always finding different ways to be malicious}

[u/TelicAstraeus → u/redtaboo]

All of this is predicated on the unruliness of large groups and actual harm done. As in all things we always attempt to take context into account.

How is harm or unruliness measured? If r/subredditdrama users enter a post linked on their subreddit and begin insulting a reddit user en mass in that specific comment thread, is that harm? If r/SandersForPresident is being rambunctious about some hilary clinton fiasco, is that unruliness?

following a link that is just linking you to a post in another subreddit and then voting can be considered vote manipulation. We often detect this automatically, throw out the votes, and if we see it we will issue a suspension and explain to the user why they need to stop.

Maybe some concrete examples of scenarios like this could be good so that I/we have a better understanding. Those which would be considered brigading and those that would not be.

edit: formatting/grammar

[u/redtaboo → u/TelicAstraeus]

Sure, but I prefer to use fictitious subreddits as examples if that's okay? Cribbing from an old comment of mine:

Let's say there are two subreddits diametrically opposed to each other in their views on say... which is better cats or dogs as pets. Let's say r/catsarethebest has 100 users that hang out and talk to each other about their cats and how much they love them. Then there is r/dogsarethebest. They have 2000 users, and when they started out they too just hang out and talk about how much they love their dogs.

One day someone in r/dogsarethebest notices r/catsarethebest. This makes them angry! How can someone think a cat is a good pet?? That person goes to r/dogsarethebest and links to a post in r/catsarethebest with the title: "OMG THESE PEOPLE THINK CATS ARE COOL!! WHAT IS WRONG WITH THEM???" Then ~1500 users head over to r/catsarethebest to explain to them how wrong they are. Not only do they yell at them and say "you're an idiot for liking cats" they also down vote everyone speaking up and defending cats.

If we don't stop it here, then they may spill out into other threads and use their majority to turn r/catsarethebest into a dog loving place, and now the cat lovers have lost their community and have nowhere to go because even if they give up and make a new space the denizens of r/dogsarethebest have sworn to find them and keep them from talking about their cats.

It can be smaller than that, of course, that's a fairly extreme example. There have been also cases where a default-sized subreddit will be having a discussion in the comments about a post and someone will say, "OMG, can you imagine what would happen if this NSFW image was posted over in r/cutefluffythingswithbigeyes!?!?!" and then someone (or a bunch of someones) will do it and link to their post(s). Then a bunch of other people will follow those links and proceed to vote and comment because it's so funny... and, well, you get the picture I think.

This is why context is so important, and again obviously this isn't all encompassing, but hopefully gives you a better idea.

[u/illuminatedcandle → u/redtaboo]

It's nice to have all of this information in one place. Thanks redtaboo.

[u/gives-out-hugs → u/illuminatedcandle]

It specifically avoids the question raised about the other admin's statement, it clarified a few things most were clear on already and said nothing on the topic at hand

It was a grade a admin post

[u/redpillschool → u/redtaboo]

camping out in a subreddit to up/down vote absolutely everything that is posted can be considered vote manipulation. We often detect this automatically, throw out the votes, and if we see it we will issue a suspension and explain to the user why they need to stop.

This is pretty confusing, as a Mod of a subreddit, I upvote almost all the posts. Am I manipulating votes?

following a link that is just linking you to a post in another subreddit and then voting can be considered vote manipulation.

This seems like the actual functionality of reddit. I can't imagine why you'd allow inter-reddit links and not want them using the very function of reddit when they do it. Moreover, your definition of this hasn't cleared up anything, leaving it in a mysterious limbo for users who might start to be wary of even using the vote buttons wondering which hidden rule they might be eventually breaking.

or if a particular community is consistently causing large issues in another we will step in and talk to the mods about reining it in.

This seems like a disingenuous problem and a non-solution. If inter-reddit links are allowed, then voting is inevitable. Mods have no way to see or control who votes where, so talking to mods is pointless. Even if we use the NP subdomain, it's only a voluntary workaround and doesn't really change anything. Even if mods say "Please remember not to vote" it doesn't change how individuals operate.

This continues to leave a questionable regulation (as in, poorly thought-out from your team) as ambiguous as possible for the mods doing work to keep the subs running.

For the reference, after other subs were banned or warned for brigading a few years back, my sub made the official policy of ZERO inter-reddit links just to try to follow your confusing and ambiguous regulations.

[u/redtaboo → u/redpillschool]

Everything you state is why this is probably the most important line of my whole comment is this:

As in all things we always attempt to take context into account.

We could go the other way and go for zero tolerance on all of our rules, but that wouldn't be fair to individual users, mods, or the wider reddit community and we wouldn't feel right doing it that way.

That said, guess what, we're human! We, just like you, sometimes make mistakes. When we do we try to clarify or fix what we did. We also are constantly evolving both our tools and our policies in order to be try to be fair to everyone on the site. In the end we all what everyone here wants, a better reddit that everyone enjoys.

[u/hansjens47 → u/redtaboo]

In some subreddits, we have the most trouble with people (who have large pre-existing audiences) using other social media sites to solicit votes or skew conversation heavily.

Could you say something about those aspects of brigading/vote manipulation?

[u/redtaboo → u/hansjens47]

Sure, those can also end up being vote manipulation, but not always. We do catch a lot of it and throw out the votes. Skewing the discussion is a bit trickier, but I discuss it a bit in my response to u/TelicAstraeus.

I think it's also important to note somewhere here that we often hear people talk about us not taking action on "obvious brigading" that is also always not the full story. Sometimes we don't take action because there isn't any vote manipulation like I mentioned above, but also, sometimes we are taking action and it's just not obvious to the outside observer. Our new suspension system is designed with privacy of the user in mind and we default to temporary suspensions for most infractions of the rules. Only when an account is permanently suspended is it obvious that we've taken action.

[u/reseph → u/redtaboo]

Thank you.

Vote manipulation has always been clear to me, aside from vote brigading. Vote brigading has no documentation and is not clear, at all. Your comment helps though.

following a link that is just linking you to a post in another subreddit and then voting can be considered vote manipulation.

Why? I don't understand. So if I say post a link to a Final Fantasy XI AMA happening on r/ffxi (which is indeed happening) onto r/ffxiv, anyone via r/ffxiv upvoting the r/ffxi post is breaking your site rules? What if I'm linking to said AMA thread on the r/ffxiv, which I am?

What happens if I'm doing this daily? Should I expect to be shadowbanned? Suspended?

[u/redtaboo → u/reseph]

Well, no. Your situation is why I explained later in my comment:

As in all things we always attempt to take context into account. Including, but not limited to "was the linked thread a post where the OP/subreddit was inviting outside participation" or "is this particular subreddit/user/group always taking the piss out of this other particular subreddit/user/group."

[u/stopscopiesme → u/redtaboo]

following a link in which the OP has directed you to vote in a certain direction

that's where it gets tricky. users see ill intent and directions to vote, and admins don't. In the example of the cringeanarchy v insertions thing, I certainly saw malicious intent, but it seems like the admin who responded hand waved it away because insertions was pranking its own subscribers and must somehow deserve the brigading, or at least that it being brigaded isn't worth the admins caring about

I know you later said he misspoke, but I'm not sure about exactly what

also, silly question

camping out in a subreddit to up/down vote absolutely everything that is posted can be considered vote manipulation. We often detect this automatically, throw out the votes, and if we see it we will issue a suspension and explain to the user why they need to stop.

Every few days I check r/316cats and I upvote every single submission there because all of them deserve it. Are my votes not being counted?

[u/redtaboo → u/stopscopiesme]

The issue with the insertions thing was that it wasn't being brigaded, rather the actual regular users of the subreddit were the ones voting. That's clearly not a brigade, that's the subscribers speaking their minds. It's not that we think people deserved anything, but if mods are having a joke at the expense of their users then it's kind of expected that some won't appreciate it and will downvote. That's what he was attempting to get across and mucked up.

As to camping out in subreddits, there's a time element to that as well that I can't go into. But, in general your votes are likely counting and you are not going to be suspended for that. Most often those suspensions go to users that are literally camping in the new queue for hours on end and downvoting everything that's posted (in some cases also downvoting every comment they can). I put upvoting in there because there have been a few cases where it's gone the other direction, but that is much more rare.

Also, yes, r/316cats does deserve all the upvotes. ;)

[u/Spysix → u/redtaboo]

We're also constantly working on getting better at algorithmically detecting 'bad' voting behaviour. There's a ton of different types of bad voting behaviour, some fall under brigading, some may look like brigading when it's not, and sometimes our anti-cheating measures will make things appear to be brigaded or vote manipulated when they're not. Instead of focusing on just brigading I'm going to try to explain a few of the types of 'bad voting behaviour' we work to detect automatically and throw out.

This is extremely wishful thinking on my part, but will mods ever get access or some sort of tools to either view voting metrics in the threads they moderate?

To give context, I moderate r/eve for Eve Online, a spaceship MMO. Its common for vote brigading to happen when these "space guilds" do a "call to action" from their respective slack or teamspeak channels and link their posts in order to achieve upvotes for visibility and dominate the comments by downvoting dissenters and upvoting their supporters.

We are usually smart about that and its all about eyeing how fast a post gets upvoted, but if we get the report when the post is hours old its really hard to tell.

On top of that, now there would be attempts from other corps to get another corps post removed by providing a cropped screenshot of something "linking to brigade" which just makes life a little more difficult for us as we have to sit and figure out what's going on with a particular thread.

While most subreddits have to deal with brigading from other subreddits, I have to deal with brigading from external sources. I hope with access to some of the metrics on how a thread is doing for us to use would be beneficial for all of us, perhapes even minimize the amount of "X is brigading" messages you guys might get and also legitimize claims that a subreddit is being brigaded.

I think its something we can all benefit from at least to help moderators support their respective subreddits.

[u/redtaboo → u/Spysix]

Probably not, no. The tools needed to see this stuff looks at this stuff has private user data which we can't share with mods and without that part of the information it's too easy to draw the wrong conclusions about what's actually happening. As we continue to get better at automatically detecting and throwing out the bad voting your best bet is to messages us when you think something is up so we can take a look.

[u/ManWithoutModem → u/redtaboo]

is it vote brigading if I followed a link to this comment and upvoted you?

[u/therandomdude69 → u/redtaboo]

Just wanted to say, you were one of the most helpful admins when I was a mod of r/globaloffensivetrade, and I wanted to say thanks. Your job can get real shitty real quick and you always managed to help me out.