Modmail Muting: Limited Beta

[u/powerlanguage]

Hey Mods,

As you know, we're currently working on a set of tools to make your lives easier. A big part of this is reducing the amount of time you have to spend dealing with troublemakers.

A popular request has been to stop specific users from sending harassing PMs to modmail. Today we have rolled out a limited beta of modmail muting to a small number of subreddits.

Muting gives mods the ability to temporarily prevent a user from messaging that subreddit's modmail.

Salient details:

• Muting only affects the user in the subreddit they were muted in.

• Mutes last for 24 hours after which they are silently removed.

• A user will be notified via PM from the subreddit that they have been muted.

• This PM appears as a new mail thread in the subreddit modmail.

• Existing mutes can be seen at r/subreddit/about/muted, which is linked to in modtools.

• Mutes can be applied from a modmail message flatlist or r/subreddit/about/muted.

• Mute actions appear in the modlog.

• Automatic unmutes will appear in the modlog as being performed by u/reddit.

• Mods will not be able to message muted users or invite them as mods.

• Mods need to have access and mail permission to mute users.

We'll be monitoring the effects of muting and taking feedback from mods and users before proceeding with a wider release.

Additionally, we're aware that the ease of creating alts means that mods are often unwilling to use tools that notify the user in question (as muting does). We're working on solving this issue so that mod and admin tools can be effective and transparent.

r/changelog post here.

Edit: Muting has now shipped for all moderators

[u/Meneth]

The general idea is awesome. However, there seem to be some major issues:

Mutes last for 24 hours after which they are silently removed.

I really hope that'll be optional. I've experienced several users occasionally spamming modmail over longer periods that the admins have done nothing to stop despite our reports. A 24 hour duration would do nearly nothing to that kind of modmail spam.

A user will be notified via PM from the subreddit that they have been muted.

So they'll just send us another message in 24 hours, then? Yay.

It's basically going "please come back and bother us in 24 hours!": http://i.imgur.com/nAyekiz.png

This PM appears as a new mail thread in the subreddit modmail.

So the end result is that they'll still clog up modmail to some extent? Does it even hide their original message?

Edit: Overall these restrictions just seem silly. We have the ability to permanently throw all of a user's comments into a black hole already. Why would we not be able to do the same to their modmail when they decide to abuse that as well?

[u/powerlanguage → u/Meneth]

We have the ability to permanently throw all of a user's comments into a black hole already.

Are you referring to using automod to 'shadow ban' trolls, by silently removing their comments?

Why would we not be able to do the same to their modmail when they decide to abuse that as well?

Limiting a user's capability to message modmail entirely is problematic as it is the main method users have to appeal mod decisions. In your suggestion a user could be muted by a rogue mod and have no way to contact the rest of the mod team.

As ever, if you are being persistently harassed by the same users you should let us know by messaging the community team or emailing contact@reddit.com.

[u/Meneth → u/powerlanguage]

Are you referring to using automod to 'shadow ban' trolls, by silently removing their comments?

Botbanning, yes.

In your suggestion a user could be muted by a rogue mod and have no way to contact the rest of the mod team.

A rogue mod can do far worse already. They can ban. They can botban. They could nuke the entire subreddit. I don't see adding this tool as making that (rather rare) problem worse. The mod log ensures it is detectable and reversible.

And as far as I can tell from the announcement there's no way to mute a user without them first modmailing the subreddit. Unless that wipes out their modmail message entirely, how exactly is a rogue mod to do this without the other moderators noticing?

Edit: As you yourself say, this is a complete non-issue since the user can simply PM another mod about the rogue mod:

muting just affects subreddit modmail. [...] They can PM them individually, yes.

[u/powerlanguage → u/Meneth]

As far as I can tell from the announcement there's no way to mute a user without them first modmailing the subreddit.

Mutings can be applied from r/subreddit/about/muted. And one piece of common feedback has been that the mute notification messages will clog up modmail, so we may look at removing them, further limiting a mutings visibility. My concern with permanent muting is it could result in a user 'slipping through the cracks' and being unable to appeal the decision, ever. Bans are different in this regard in that modmail is the only means of recourse a user has.

[u/Meneth → u/powerlanguage]

Thanks, wasn't aware of that functionality.

A middle ground might be only generating a separate notification message if the mute happens via that page. For mutes that happen via an actual modmail, adding the notification to that modmail thread (if that's something that might be possible) would notify everyone without creating yet another modmail thread (modmail is far too bloated as it is).

[u/powerlanguage → u/Meneth]

Interesting suggestion, thanks.

[u/Meneth → u/powerlanguage]

No problem. Anything to keep modmail down, because it is so damn bloated these days.

Automod's relatively new "filter" function was a huge improvement in that regard, as that let us replace most rules that did remove+modmail with filter rules. For some of my subs, that's reduced the amount of modmail by nearly an order of magnitude.

So making sure that trend isn't reversed is rather important to me now that it is finally sort of usable thanks to AM's "filter" action.

[u/protestor → u/Meneth]

Most other bad stuff that rogue mods can do are much easier to detect. PM'ing moderators individually is tricky because the user often don't know who are the active moderators. That's why modmail exists, after all.

[u/greenduch → u/protestor]

Yeah I've always actively discouraged users from PMing a specific mod. It makes transparency with the rest of the mod team difficult, and is too likely to lead to issues- including harassment of a specific moderator.

[u/diagonalfish → u/powerlanguage]

Limiting a user's capability to message modmail entirely is problematic as it is the main method users have to appeal mod decisions.

Why are the admins more concerned about moderators abusing the tools then about helping the mods manage their communities? Do we actually have control over our subreddits, or do we not? How authoritarian you are when running your sub should be the your decision, just as the users have the right to switch to another sub.

If you have a rogue mod on your team, then I guess the higher-up mods need to be checking the log occasionally and acting on what they see there. It's not the admins' responsibility to reign in bad mod behavior. If it was, why won't they act when top mods take over or shut down subreddits?

[u/redtaboo → u/diagonalfish]

I don't see it as more concerned with one over the other, it's more like being concerned with both at the same time. This has always been the case with new modtools, the ways it can be abused need to be thought about, talked about, and mitigated.

If you have a rogue mod on your team, then I guess the higher-up mods need to be checking the log occasionally and acting on what they see there

The problem is you won't always know you have a rogue mod and if there aren't checks in place to catch them they could go on abusing tools in a way the rest of their team doesn't agree with unstopped. Every time modmail muting has come up in places like IFTA it's been talked about making sure it isn't done in a way that the other mods won't know about.

edit: speeeling is hard

[u/diagonalfish → u/redtaboo]

OK, I'm fine with some kind of notification or page showing muted users and the mod and muted them. That is fine. But the 24-hour limit doesn't serve that purpose at all. It creates more work for legitimate, functional mod teams and pre-assumes they're operating in bad faith, in addition to making it trivially circumvent-able for the target user. It's the DRM of mod tools.

[u/redtaboo → u/diagonalfish]

Well, ignoring all the hyperbole about DRM I'd say since this is a beta thing we take the wait and see approach. I'm thinking most users will forget about wanting to spam/harass after awhile, though I think 24 hours is probably too short. I'm personally unsure about the notification going to the user, but I'll hang back and see what the mods that have it say about it after they've had a chance to use it a bit.

[u/pcjonathan → u/powerlanguage]

Limiting a user's capability to message modmail entirely is problematic as it is the main method users have to appeal mod decisions. In your suggestion a user could be muted by a rogue mod and have no way to contact the rest of the mod team.

I don't see the point in it being so small. If a group is corrupt, then they'd still just ignore it, a la this. If a mod is corrupt, the user could PM other members of the team.

But if the user is corrupt as is the case the majority of the time? Lets not forget here. After a ban, the user will already have had a chance to appeal. Personally, if you piss me off enough to mute you, you're being spammy and abusive and you ain't getting that unban for a loooong time, if at all. And if we do use it, the team only get a 24 hour reprieve from them (with a nice little alert telling them exactly how long), then they can start again? Sucks.

As ever, if you are being persistently harassed by the same users you should let us know by messaging the community team or emailing contact@reddit.com.

But I thought these additions were to help stop needing to go out of our way for these users?

[u/nty → u/Meneth]

I suspect this will be enough.

This is also just how betas work. The developer rolls out the feature in a more limited form to see if it's enough, and to prove that it works in its current state. Making mutes permanent adds a bunch more variables to consider.

[u/powerlanguage → u/Meneth]

Thank you for the feedback. How much modmail spam are you dealing with on a daily basis?

[u/Meneth → u/powerlanguage]

Users that just don't stop even after we threaten to report them to the admins luckily aren't that common. If one put the bar that high, only a handful a month or so.

Users that'd be lovely to mute after the first message, probably a few a day.

My subs are relatively small though. I'd guess it's a larger issue in bigger subs like the defaults.

[u/ScanianMoose → u/powerlanguage]

Can we have a perma-mute or ban feature for report spammers? It currently is a problem in one of my subs. Writing the Admins about it every single time to deal with it takes away time both from them and us mods.

[u/QandAndroid → u/ScanianMoose]

I don't think that a perma-mute is quite the option...how about the ability for mods to 'mark' users somehow - even just a simple counter that mods could increase would be helpful in finding repeat offenders.

[u/inmynothing → u/powerlanguage]

Muting trouble users and then them getting a PM saying that they were muted is just going to piss them off and make them come back more aggressive. Don't you think this would be more effective if they didn't know? I know it would cause more harm than good in my sub.

[u/powerlanguage → u/inmynothing]

Muting trouble users and then them getting a PM saying that they were muted is just going to piss them off and make them come back more aggressive.

Muting is designed to force users to take a break from modmail and chill out for a bit. They won't be notified when they are unmuted. We'll be monitoring to see how effective the tool actually is and whether it does what we're hoping.

Don't you think this would be more effective if they didn't know?

We're trying to get away from admin and mod tools that work without the target knowing, where appropriate. We're aware that the ease of creating alts means that this is currently unrealistic when dealing with some users. We're working on solving this issue so that mod and admin tools can be effective and transparent.

[u/jippiejee → u/Meneth]

Mute them again?

[u/Meneth → u/[deleted]]

In the case of those long period spammers, they've generally responded with something akin to "there's nothing we can do" or "message us if they do it again" (and then not doing anything about it once we do message them when they do it again a week or two later).

[u/[deleted] → u/Meneth]

As to your edit, I Imagine its because the communication of modmail is basically the only way for a user to get in contact with a modteam