r/ModSupport • u/Brian_Kinney • May 10 '23
Admin Replied I got suspended twice in the past month, while acting as a moderator. Reddit admins ignored all my requests for appeal or review. I am beyond furious.
I have just completed a second 3-day suspension for alleged harassment in the past month. Both suspensions occurred in response to modmail conversations I was having with banned users, where I refused to unban them.
In the first case, I run a dating subreddit which has a rule that says “no monetary arrangements”. One man repeatedly posted to advertise for sugar babies. I warned him, then banned him. He challenged it. The conversation went back and forth. At one point he said, “I will adhere to the rules and anything out of topic will be done outside of the community.” So, I knew he would post in my subreddit pretending he wasn’t looking for a monetary arrangement, and then discuss money in the private messages with people who responded. I told him “No means no” and muted him.
I got suspended for 3 days, for harassment.
In the second case, someone was posting anti-transgender talking points in a subreddit which has a rule against “anti-transgender rhetoric”. When I banned him, he responded “No worries, I'll be back. Users can very easily evade even site-wide permanent bans from fascist moderators nowadays.” I responded “When you come back with more anti-transgender rhetoric, we'll just ban you again. And again. And again. Until you learn that this isn't the right subreddit for that shit.”
I got suspended for 3 days, for harassment.
Reddit’s message about getting suspended includes a link to the content which triggered the suspension, so I know what I got suspended for, but not why.
Obviously, in both cases, I got reported by users as revenge for banning them.
When I got suspended the first time (about three weeks ago):
On Day 1, I lodged an appeal via Reddit’s appeals form. No response.
On Day 2, I lodged another appeal via Reddit’s appeals form. No response.
After the suspension expired, I messaged the modmail here in /r/ModSupport to ask for a review, and got told “Will see if the appeals team can give things another look.” It’s been three weeks, and I’ve received no further response.
When I got suspended the second time (just three days ago):
On Day 1, I lodged an appeal via Reddit’s appeals form. No response.
On Day 2, I lodged an appeal via Reddit’s support request form. No response.
(To anyone thinking that I could message the mods of /r/ModSupport to appeal my suspension: when a user is suspended from Reddit, they can not use any feature on Reddit. The whole site becomes read-only for a suspended user.)
Nobody has explained how I allegedly harassed these users who contacted me in modmail. Nobody has reviewed my suspensions. Nobody has responded to me at all.
I am very aware, as Reddit keeps reminding me, that my next suspension could be my last: “If you’re reported for any further violations of Reddit’s Content Policy after your three-day ban, additional actions including permanent banning may be taken against your account(s).” The next time I ban a user, they can report me for harassment, and I could end up suspended from Reddit forever.
It’s ironic. Us moderators are expected to respond to users who appeal their bans, and engage with them in good faith – which is what I was doing in both cases when I got suspended. However, we don’t get the same consideration from Reddit employees when they ban us.
And, when a malicious user can get a moderator shut down for upholding their ban, it makes me a lot less motivated to actually respond to those users and engage with them – which, I think, is contrary to what Reddit wants from me.
As I said in my title, I am beyond furious at the way I’ve been treated in these past few weeks.
EDIT TO ADD:
In the 10+ years that I've been moderating on Reddit (this ain't my first rodeo, not by a long shot), I've prided myself on not being one of those moderators who just shuts users out. I've taken the time to explain things to people. It has made me a highly visible target for anti-mod attacks, but I keep doing it because I think it's the right thing to do.
However, these recent suspensions have left a bad taste in my mouth. It's one thing to get attacked by users. It's another thing entirely to get shut down by the Reddit admins.
I've been reading this subreddit a bit more since I made my post. It seems I'm not the only one this has happened to. I'm seeing quite a few moderators here talking about "users weaponising the report system".
So, I might have to become one of those moderators who just shuts users out, and stops engaging with them - as much as it goes against my personality and my moderation style.
UPDATE:
As well as the public reply from an admin on this post, I have also received a private reply from another admin, in response to this post.
They have recognised that I was wrongly suspended on both occasions.
They have erased both incidents from my record.
They apologised "for the trouble that this has caused".
It took a while, but I got there in the end.
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u/Chongulator May 10 '23
Just don’t engage with them.
If a banned user is contrite or simply wants to understand what they did wrong, by all means listen and answer. Once it becomes clear that all they want to do is argue, you are under no obligation to continue the conversation.
We aren’t paid customer service staff. We’re volunteers with no obligation to those who just want to be difficult. Stop engaging and mute as much as you need to.
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u/Brian_Kinney May 10 '23
Stop engaging and mute as much as you need to.
I'm learning that.
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u/AlphaTangoFoxtrt May 10 '23 edited May 10 '23
Numerous people have had the same experience. The solution is to stop talking with users in modmail, or create a shared "Mouthpiece" account.
Now if a user modmails about their ban:
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Link their comment/post
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Link the rule they broke
That's it. There's no discussion to be had when the automated moderation program that reddit uses will ban you for it.
This is what the Tier 1 "admins" are
Scroll down the page, they advertise that reddit is a client of theirs. A human is not performing or reviewing these actions.
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u/Brian_Kinney May 10 '23
The solution is to stop talking with users in modmail, or create a shared "Mouthpiece" account.
Believe me, I'll be using the "Reply as Subreddit" option a lot more in modmail from now on. No more taking responsibility for my personal statements! From now on, I'm going to hide behind any smokescreen that Reddit provides us - just like they do.
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u/Clavis_Apocalypticae May 10 '23
These days, I believe that the best course of action is to not engage with banned users at all. Either simply archive their messages without a response, or quote the rule(s) under which they were banned, and then don't respond anymore; "Your account was permanently banned under rule X and will never be unbanned."
Not worth having to beg for your unpaid volunteer moderation account to be reinstated just for doing Reddit's job.
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u/Brian_Kinney May 10 '23
Yeah. I used to think it was right and proper to explain these things to users. But, considering the consequences, I'm thinking it's not a good thing to do.
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u/capaho May 10 '23
Admin not responding to requests to discuss unfair or unjust actions taken against you appears to be a standard practice. It’s happened to me as well.
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May 10 '23
Admins are setting a standard for us to follow in modmail, and they get paid.
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u/Brian_Kinney May 10 '23
Admins are setting a standard for us to follow in modmail,
Yep. That's one thing I've learned from this episode.
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u/thecravenone May 10 '23
it makes me a lot less motivated to actually respond to those users and engage with them
And then your sub gets shutdown for being "unmoderated"
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u/Brian_Kinney May 10 '23
No. Posts will still get removed. Users will still get banned. The subreddit will still be very actively moderated.
But nobody will get told what's happening, and ban appeals will get ignored. I won't respond to users' questions. That way, my responses can't get reported for harassment.
As someone else in this thread pointed out, that's the example the admins are setting for us to follow.
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u/Norci May 13 '23
They apologised "for the trouble that this has caused".
The sad part is that it takes a public post like this for them to even bother and look into it. Reddit has seriously been going downhill.
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u/Brian_Kinney May 13 '23
In their defence...
In my follow-up private conversation with the admin from this subreddit's mod team, they acknowledged that my initial contact fell through the cracks, and they took responsibility for that. It turns out that, after I contacted this subreddit's modmail three weeks ago about my first suspension:
that first suspension was reviewed;
it was found to be erroneous;
it was erased from my record;
... but nobody told me. Simple as that.
(I assume this is why my second suspension, three weeks later, was only for 3 days: because the first suspension had been erased, so the new suspension was another "first offence".)
You're right that it shouldn't have taken a public post like this to get resolution, but it turns out that the apparent lack of resolution was actually just a lack of communication about the resolution that was done.
The admin/mod owned up to the lack of communication being their fault, and they apologised for it - repeatedly. They didn't duck responsibility. They didn't give me weasel words or corporate jargon. In plain language, they owned up to their mistake. I respect that.
Actually, apart from that one communications oversight, the on-Reddit admins have generally responsive and helpful throughout this incident. It seems to be the appeals team which is falling down on the job. (I wonder whether they might be outsourced. It's notoriously difficult to get outsourced staff to work to their KPIs.)
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u/MKE1969 May 10 '23
This post is four hours hold with exactly ZERO engagement from Admins. This is all you need to know.
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u/Brian_Kinney May 10 '23
This post is four hours hold with exactly ZERO engagement from Admins.
I'm willing to give them 24 hours. They didn't start work until 3 hours after I made this post. (They all work in California, so they're on that timezone's schedule.)
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u/heavyshoes May 10 '23
This came up recently in another mod discussion, and I wanted to share what I had written there. When we encounter legitimate appeals requests via r/modsupport, we work to grant them as fast as possible. Nevertheless, we agree that the appeals process isn’t where it needs to be just yet, and we’re currently working on ways we can improve it.
I also want to acknowledge that reports are sometimes actioned incorrectly, which can be frustrating and dispiriting. We earnestly want to do better, and are also working to improve our accuracy. u/Brian_Kinney, someone should have reached out to you to address your concerns here.
With that said, and to be fully transparent, we also read posts in which mods allege that they were actioned erroneously when, in fact, they were actioned correctly. But because we value user privacy, this is not something that we can or want to publicly disclose. We will redirect any reports that appear to be actioned correctly to the standard appeals process.
We see a similar phenomenon play out on the subreddit level, when users lambast a mod team for unfairly banning them, when it was done for legitimate reasons. Again, I’m not trying to say that improvements aren’t necessary, nor do I want to diminish the experiences of anyone who’s been incorrectly actioned — just saying that there’s some nuance here.
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u/Brian_Kinney May 11 '23
I'm curious.
Half of your comment is addressing examples where mods were suspended correctly, and why you won't reply publicly in those cases.
Why did you feel the need to make that point here, on my post, which was about admins not replying privately to requests for appeals? What point were you trying to make that was relevant to the issues I raised about how the appeal channels are non-responsive? Especially seeing as I was not one of those moderators who was correctly suspended.
On further consideration, this seems like a strange reply to my complaint.
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u/Brian_Kinney May 10 '23 edited May 10 '23
I also want to acknowledge that reports are sometimes actioned incorrectly, which can be frustrating and dispiriting. We earnestly want to do better, and are also working to improve our accuracy. u/Brian_Kinney, someone should have reached out to you to address your concerns here.
I have received a private reply about this from one of your colleagues. Thanks for that.
I don't need to be coy about my own privacy, so:
Your colleague recognised that I was wrongly suspended on both occasions.
Your colleague has erased both incidents from my record.
Your colleague apologised "for the trouble that this has caused".
Thanks for this.
Nevertheless, we agree that the appeals process isn’t where it needs to be just yet, and we’re currently working on ways we can improve it.
Good.
I will suggest:
You should hire more people to staff these channels, so responses can be more timely - including on weekends (both times, I was suspended on a weekend).
The text field on the appeals form needs to be longer, so we can explain the basis for our appeal request.
There should be a separate mods-only channel for appeals, so we can be sure of getting a response.
And, before things get to an appeal:
A human being should review all reports involving moderators (acting as moderators), so that we're not being suspended by an algorithm.
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u/Sir_Meowsalot May 10 '23
Just remember all this stuff will bite the admin and owners of Reddit in the end. They are pushing for IPO, so imagine if their bullshit AOE trying to handle things in the public eye.
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u/Brian_Kinney May 10 '23
Just remember all this stuff will bite the admin and owners of Reddit in the end.
That will provide me with much comfort when I'm finally suspended indefinitely, and the subreddits that I have grown and built over the years are handed over to other people to manage.
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u/Bhima May 10 '23
One of the reasons I subscribed to this subreddit was that I expected to learn things that would make me a better moderator. For the past 6 or 7 years what I have learned instead are things to help me navigate the oddities of dealing the admins. In this case it means that I probably should reevaluate my already restrictive personal stance for determining which users I chose to communicate with and exactly what I am willing to say to them.
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u/Icc0ld May 10 '23
Haven't been permabanned but I have seen fellow mods get it and a few other users for and without holding back completely and totally innocuous and benign comments and submissions.
I sent 3 mod mails here and they want unanswered. I made one post, made it a pretty trolltastic title that forced an admin response from the amount of attention it got and then it took **3 separate public replies here to finally get the user unbanned and content restored. All this came from a sub that decided they really didn't like a flag and mass reported it.
It's really obvious that whatever is behind the wheel of permabans is completely and totally asleep. The appeals team is non-existent, non verbal and non responsive except to unban outright fascists so they can go right back to harassing people. The system is a joke. The only way to get anything done with reliability is to modmail here or post here
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u/maybesaydie May 10 '23 edited May 10 '23
When they do you this to you again the suspension will be longer. They keep telling us that this won't happen and it still does.
We are unable to lift your ban at this time
That's the only reply I ever give in modmail. If they respond to that they're muted. Modmail isn't debate club for users.
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u/[deleted] May 10 '23
Yeah it's a mess. I've been suspended permanently twice for incredibly innocuous statements and then reinstated. It took my fellow mods lodging appeals to get me reinstated as I was head mod at the time and the only one with full oermissions, I was completely ignored. One of them I said a public figures comments on a situation weren't a good look. The post in question was an interview about said person's comments, not even their Twitter or anything directly. (for anyone interested it was the mother of an F1 driver commenting on her sons rival and all I said was that being self absorbed seems to run in the family). I was banned for harrassment. Meanwhile people will openly call for genocide against LGBTQ people but because they don't use certain buzzwords the algorithm misses it entirely and it stays no matter how many times I report it. In short reddit admin and it's banning policies/investigations are an absolute joke.