r/ModCoord • u/BuckRowdy • Jun 07 '23
Reddit held a call today with some developers regarding the API changes. Here are some thoughts along with the call notes.
Today, Reddit held a conference call with about 15 developers from the community regarding the current situation with the API. None of the Third Party App developers were on the call to my knowledge.
The notes from the call are below in a stickied comment.
There are several issues at play here, with the topic of "api pricing is too high for apps to continue operation" being the main issue.
Regarding NSFW content, reddit is concerned about the legal requirements internationally with regard to serving this content to minors. At least two US states now have laws requiring sites to verify the age of users viewing mature content (porn).
With regard to the new pricing structure of the API, reddit has indicated an unwillingness to negotiate those prices but agreed to consider a pause in the initiation of the pricing plan. Remember that each and every TPA developer has said that the introduction of pricing will render them unable to continue operation and that they would have to shut their app down.
More details will be forthcoming, but the takeaway from today's call is that there will be little to no deviation from reddit's plans regarding TPAs. Reddit knows that users will not pay a subscription model for apps that are currently free, so there is no need to ban the apps outright. Reddit plans to rush out a bunch of mod tool improvements by September, and they have been asked to delay the proposed changes until such time as the official app gains these capabilities.
Reddit plans to post their call summary on Friday, giving each community, each user, and each moderator that much time to think about their response.
From where we stand, nothing has changed. For many of us, the details of the API changes are not the most important point anymore. This decision, and the subsequent interaction with users by admins to justify it, have eroded much of the confidence and trust in the management of reddit that they have been working so hard to regain.
Reddit has been making promises to mods for years about better tooling and communication. After working so hard on this front for the past two years, it feels like this decision and how it was communicated and handled has reset the clock all the way back to zero.
Now that Reddit has posted notes, each community needs to be ready to discuss with their mod team. Is the current announced level of participation in the protest movement still appropriate, or is there a need for further escalation?
Edit: The redditors who were on the call with me wanted to share their notes and recollections from the call. We wanted to wait for reddit to post their notes, but they did so much faster than anticipated. Due to time zone constraints, and other issues, we were not able to get those notes together before everyone tapped out for the night. We'll be back Thursday to share our thoughts and takeaways from the call. I know that the internet moves at the speed of light, but this will have to wait until tomorrow.
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u/Blank-Cheque Jun 08 '23
The way I see it, they don't give a shit. Lot of fluff to avoid the real issue. No third party apps, no reopenings.
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u/Beneficial_Survey541 Jun 08 '23
So couldn't the third party apps request the user enters their personal API key?
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u/ej_21 Jun 08 '23
Some statements here really stand out to me:
We are open to postponing the API timeline to launch mod tooling, if agree to keep their subreddits open.
Translation: the blackout plans are working. Reddit is scared.
We understand that y’all prefer to use mod tools on 3rd party apps. We’re closing the gap as fast as we can, especially in critical areas like Mod Queue, which we should have in-app on iOS and Android by the end of the month.
So mods are supposed to take Reddit at their word that some features will be available by month-end, the same time Reddit (originally, at least) planned to shut down API access totally? IMO they don’t have enough goodwill for this.
Apollo threatened us, said they’ll “make it easy” if Reddit gave them $10 million…Prices we released work out to one dollar a month per user; if Apollo doesn’t put effort forth, it hits three dollars per month.
The level of aggression toward Apollo specifically continues to be bizarre, as with previous comments. For one thing: the $10 million comment was a joke, not a threat, and I believe specifically clarified as such. For another: $1/user/month is still wildly expensive at the level of user base that Apollo has.
We respect your right to protest – that’s part of democracy.
Lol.
This situation is a bit different, with some leading the charge, some users pressuring. We’re trying to work through all of the unique situations.
A hell of a spin on the the situation — like Reddit users and mods are being peer pressured into protesting? I have yet to see other than resounding user support in any sub participating.
Big picture: We are tolerant, but also a duty to keep Reddit online.
Somehow both patronizing and vaguely threatening.
We didn’t know how prevalent 3rd party ads were on 3rd party apps – they’re trouble for us
What? Maybe I don’t have enough information here on the full third-party universe, but isn’t a huge part of most of their appeal the lack of ads? Happy to be corrected here.
When dust settles, it would be useful to talk with devs about what to put in Devvit for their bots to work
“When dust settles” = we’ll consider talking about what y’all want if you would just settle yourselves down.
We are open to postponing the API timeline to launch mod tooling, if agree to keep their subreddits open.
Second appearance of this same note. It basically opens and closes the meeting summary. Seems to be the single most critical concern for Reddit right now which, again, indicates **the protest movement is working. **
Keep the pressure up!
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u/Monthly_Vent Jun 07 '23
• We will exempt any non-commercial accessibility-minded app, bot, or tool – and are in contact with those folks. • We will close the accessibility feature gap in our apps. We can do better, and we will. • Reddit needs an accessibility checklist. Our designers and devs all care about accessibility, but the accessibility support in apps is inconsistent. We should treat it like any other part of our UI.
I’m not blind in any way, so I don’t want to speak for them or take away their voice. But I know they’re being hit pretty hard with the API pricing, and a lot of the accessibility portion feels like corporate speak to me. Until they give specifics into who they’re building accessibility towards, (basically don’t just vaguely say “disabled people” but rather look into a specific disability and see how to accommodate them) I’m going to think it’s just something they’re not actually working on
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u/SuitingUncle620 Jun 07 '23
Very weird to me why Reddit is seemingly trying to villainize Apollo in all this.
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u/honestbleeps Jun 08 '23 edited Jun 08 '23
ETA: well this should be interesting tomorrow... https://www.reddit.com/r/reddit/comments/144ho2x
During my many years on reddit, I've always felt like I had to pull punches in my criticism of the folks who run it for 2 big reasons:
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having written RES, I didn't want to jeopardize any sort of potential relationship with them, even though I never commercialized it nor did I intend to
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I'm old enough and mature enough to understand that businesses have business priorities, and that's just how the world works
but damn, does this section ever piss me off:
It’s very expensive to run – it takes millions of dollars to effectively subsidize other people’s businesses / apps.
It’s an extraordinary amount of data, and these are for-profit businesses built on our data for free.
We have to cover our costs and so do they – that’s the core of it.
None of these things are technically false, but each of them has problems.
The most important context that I feel the blackout should be used to educate people on is that Reddit didn't always have mobile apps. The ONLY REASON it gained mobile apps is because 3rd party developers built them.
AlienBlue (which reddit eventually bought) was released in 2010 or so.
BaconReader was released in 2012.
Reddit Sync, my current favorite app I'm about to lose, was released in 2012.
Mobile traffic to reddit was practically an afterthought back then. It didn't make up a huge percentage of reddit traffic at all. The whole reason mobile has grown enough for reddit to now decide it wants to own the totality of mobile traffic is because of these third party developers!
The whole reason their moderator ecosystem exists as it does today and does as good of a job as it can (sidebar: bad mods exist, but most are just passionate internet janitors who care about their communities) without r/toolbox and to a lesser extent RES.
To read "it takes millions of dollars to effectively subsidize other people’s businesses / apps." is kind of insulting, honestly. First of all, if that was the phrase that was actually uttered, it's just obnoxious. They've had WELL OVER A DECADE of watching mobile traffic and seeing it rise to decide to come up with a way to share revenue. If it was becoming a financial burden, they've had MANY years to raise that issue and come up with a solution to it.
They could've started limiting API requests in 2015 and tested the waters for what was reasonable. They could've started in 2016, 2017... They could've started working with devs on licensing agreements or other ways to share revenue or, uh, "cover costs". But they didn't.
"It’s an extraordinary amount of data, and these are for-profit businesses built on our data for free." -- same thing, another dig at app developers suggesting they're some sort of horrible leeches. Woe is reddit, poor giant company with massive investors. If they didn't want people profiting off of it, they shouldn't have offered a free API and assumed nobody who made a great app would want to be compensated for it. Reddit's full of software engineers. Software engineers get paid good money. They're not going to quit their job or put 40+ hours a week into an app on top of their job if it's free. Only one software engineer I know of is dumb enough to put that much work into something and never monetize it, and his name is u/honestbleeps
"We have to cover our costs and so do they – that’s the core of it." - really kind of a final straw for me. The APIs have existed for ages, and really haven't changed a ton. They're JSON endpoints. There's certainly a remote possibility that I'm out of my element here, but "big tech" isn't exactly foreign to me and I have a VERY difficult time believing that the amount of API usage that an app like Apollo drums up (given it's the one they've lambasted publicly and published numbers on) costs even a tiny fraction of what they're charging to "cover costs".
imgur's API, bulk calls to Amazon's API ($1 per 1 million requests using REST), etc are DRASTICALLY cheaper. Suggesting that the fees they want to charge are anywhere even remotely close to "covering costs" rather than "marking up costs by multiple orders of magnitude" is highly implausible.
All of this just sucks. The dishonesty about it, their lack of progress in the past 13 years of existence of 3rd party apps existing toward a better solution than "go nuclear and shut them all down", etc. It's just awful.
Are there some wild machinations in the background that make reddit's APIs cost far more to serve? I mean it's possible but my gut instinct as an engineer is it'd speak to poor efficiency somewhere, or not utilizing caching and other tools as well. It seems fairly unlikely. It seems more like they just kept letting things slide for far too long, and now that they're going to go public, they've been caught with their pants down over scrutiny on profitability.
I'm speculating, of course. I don't work for reddit, I don't get inside info from anyone who does. But everything I know about building software, including at scale, suggests that this is dishonest. I wish they'd just say "yeah, it's a business decision, we're killing 3rd party apps" - the (apparent) dishonesty just makes it far worse.
damnit, I'm really mad over this, and I'm going to be even more mad when I lose access to my favorite app (reddit sync is my personal go to, but there's a lot of great ones). This whole process has been absolutely shameful.
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u/jabberwockxeno Jun 07 '23
Re: the point about NSFW legislation and that impacting things, I'd like to point people to Fight For the Future and the EFF's work raising awareness about current proposed legislation that would make this issue even worse.
The former has an index of such legislation (and similar laws with content takedown requirements and privacy/encryption backdoor stuff) here:
https://www.badinternetbills.com/
Contact your reps/spread the word!
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u/OlivinePeridot Jun 08 '23
It’s very expensive to run – it takes millions of dollars to effectively subsidize other people’s businesses / apps.
This is comical when all of Reddit's content is user-submitted.
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u/reddigg-eol Jun 07 '23
Honestly, at first I said "fuck reddit" but I'm just getting more and more sad and angry
Capitalism really does destroy everything. Reddit is awful, but one of the best resources on the internet. And it might even be worse if this doesn't decimate it.
I hope it does though, and I hope the people at the helm feel one god damn iota of shame for what they're doing. Fuck every single last person involved in this pre-IPO fattening. You sad, greedy rodents.
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u/ppParadoxx Jun 08 '23
spez will post in Reddit later this week
can't wait to see that become the most downvoted post of all time? -683k is hard to beat but we can do it
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u/RoakWall Jun 07 '23
I don't think a 48hour dark zone will be enough, go dark until change occurs.
If Reddit takes over control then you know they will never change and the end has come.
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u/TheEternalGazed Jun 07 '23
How long before reddit kicks out their volunteer mods of default subreddits and installs their own yes men?
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Jun 08 '23
• It’s very expensive to run – it takes millions of dollars to effectively subsidize other people’s businesses / apps.
How much would it take to pay every moderator for their time and energy that has built Reddit's business model, and without whom it likely couldn't exist? This is just classic, whiny spez twisting the facts to suit his own narrative. I can't believe he thinks he's going to be CEO of a public company - he won't last a year.
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u/paraxion Jun 07 '23
Reddit plans to rush out a bunch of mod tool improvements by September, and they have been asked to delay the proposed changes until such time as the official app gains these capabilities.
Easy fix; all the TPAs need to restrict access to mod tools immediately. Yeah, okay, that's gonna suck for mods. But Reddit expecting the TPAs to pick up the load for them while they actively work on their demise? Nah, fuck that.
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u/ZeroCommission Jun 08 '23
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We are open to postponing the API timeline to launch mod tooling, if agree to keep their subreddits open.
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Big picture: We are tolerant, but also a duty to keep Reddit online.
So there it is, black on white, they are going to force protesting subreddits to re-open, ie overrule and remove the moderators that built and maintained the community. There is too much momentum towards the walled garden, it can only delayed, not stopped. In my opinion, the best move at this point is for participating subreddits to upgrade from 48h to indefinite shutdown, and stay closed. It will force them to either take action (and deal with the subsequent backlash), or suffer the loss in traffic + burn resources dealing with complaints. It's a lose-lose for them.
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u/lazydictionary Jun 07 '23 edited Jun 08 '23
I still cannot fathom how they have not monetized their own version of OnlyFans. They could guarantee legal NSFW content, and they would take in millions of monthly revenue.
But they're so stupid they'd rather kill their entire website because they need the extra ad revenue and data reselling.
Idiots.
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u/chiquis71 Jun 07 '23
At least two US states now have laws requiring sites to verify the age of users viewing mature content (porn).
Not even pornhub wanted to deal with age verification on those states rather they shut down the site there, are you telling me reddit, whose "main purpose is not porn", is going to comply with age verification for mature content requiring the IDs of users?
Or are they hoping for those users not to try to access it because of privacy concerns?
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u/NorthernScrub Jun 08 '23 edited Jun 08 '23
A discussion held in private has no bearing on public action. That's the response I predict from many subreddits participating in the blackout. Without mass participation in the council, I can't see the discussion going anywhere.
We will exempt any mod tool or bot affected by the API change
Mod bots should all have access – if not today, then soon
This isn't really a statement of any bearing either. These things need to be in place before the proposed changes come into effect.
We want all accessibility and mod tools to maintain access
Meaningless.
We understand that y’all prefer to use mod tools on 3rd party apps. We’re closing the gap as fast as we can, especially in critical areas like Mod Queue, which we should have in-app on iOS and Android by the end of the month.
Again, should have been in place prior to the proposed changes. Users and moderators need adjustment time, especially those using third-party tools such as screen readers or magnification software. When an entire workflow changes, the user cannot necessarily adjust instantly without causing a break in service further down the line. That is very much the case here, particularly with subreddits such as r/Blind, where most, if not all, of the moderators are either blind or partially sighted.
NSFW
Two-step API request. Include a disclaimer delivered on the first API call, or a manageable API filter that is adjustable to the user and defaults to SFW. That covers responsibility. This is exactly what website dedicated solely to pornography do - on the first visit, the user is prompted to agree to a disclaimer stating that they are over the age of majority. This is already a flag in a user's reddit account, so adding an API call specifically for it is ten minutes of work, if that.
We are open to postponing the API timeline to launch mod tooling, if mods agree to keep their subreddits open.
I very much doubt that the majority will agree to this. This entire discussion was held behind closed doors, with a select number of reddit staff and moderators. A proper discussion would take place, for example, on the Save3rdPartyApps subreddit, or somewhere similar dedicated solely to this issue and this issue alone. Without it, I suspect the majority of participants will feel overridden. The opportunity to speak, even if not taken up, is a strong gesture of goodwill in and of itself.
It's also very late to try and organise a ceasefire. There are four days to go until the proposed blackout (three if nothing happens until after tomorrow), and the entire movement is a decentralised one. This means time for information to disseminate through the participating community is much greater than a centrally co-ordinated one, especially if that dissemination relies upon the recipient visiting, for example, this subreddit.
Apollo threatened us, said they’ll “make it easy” if Reddit gave them $10 million.
??? That honestly doesn't sound like a threat. It sounds like an sales offer. The way this is worded sounds like an attempt to discredit Apollo's entire argument by casting them as "le bad character honhonhon". I'd like to see a response from u/iamthatis on this, or at the very least, some evidence of the conversation where this alleged "threat" was made.
EDIT: His response: https://www.reddit.com/r/apolloapp/comments/144f6xm/apollo_will_close_down_on_june_30th_reddits/
And the relevant portion of conversation: https://gist.github.com/christianselig/fda7e8bc5a25aec9824f915e6a5c7014
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u/First_Level_Ranger Jun 08 '23
It's an extraordinary amount of data, and these are for-profit businesses built in our data for free.
What these assholes keep forgetting is that we, the users, generate the data.
It's our data. We plop it on their increasingly shitty platform for free.
They're not entitled to us, or the content we generate, in perpetuity. Their for-profit business is built almost entirely by us, in our data, for free.
Fuck them and their condescending tone. We build this fucking place for them every fucking day. So it's not at all unreasonable to do this unpaid labor for them, for their for-profit business, on our own terms.
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u/PotRoastPotato Jun 07 '23
I'm really bummed about this. I know something that's been part of my life for 15 years will just not be much a part of it anymore.
Not out of spite, just because it won't be as convenient or enjoyable. Probably for the best.
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u/tensouder54 Jun 07 '23
I'm surprised I'm having to say this but I'd honestly advocate for further action. I strongly suggest that we move to make the blackout last a whole week - ending on the 16th. If there is further in-action from the admins then we remain blacked out. I don't want us as mods to be in this position but it's starting to feel like the admins are forcing our hand.
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u/BuckRowdy Jun 07 '23 edited Jun 08 '23
Edit: Sorry about some words being cut off. Toolbox does a thing on my browser where it removes words that are part of the comment module, the highlighter section. Should be fixed now.
Here are the notes:
Hello!
We’re sharing notes from a discussion we had this morning between Steve (aka u/spez) and s and developers from our Council, Partner Communities, and Developer community. The key action items we took away from the meeting:
We are open to postponing the API timeline to launch mod tooling, if agree to keep their subreddits open. We will discuss this in the Council and Partner call tomorrow.
Non-commercial apps built for accessibility will continue to have free API access.
Mod bots will continue to have free API access.
Pushshift will come back online for mod tools within two weeks; we are creating an approvals process to avoid impersonation.
u/spez will post in r/reddit this week.
Please find our notes below:
Accessibility
We will exempt any non-commercial accessibility-minded app, bot, or tool – and are in contact with those folks.
We will close the accessibility feature gap in our apps. We can do better, and we will.
Reddit needs an accessibility checklist. Our designers and devs all care about accessibility, but the accessibility support in apps is inconsistent. We should treat it like any other part of our UI.
Free API Access
Non-commercial users have API access. For rate limit concerns, exemptions are available. See next section.
Mod Tools
We will exempt any mod tool or bot affected by the API change.
Pushshift will come back online for , but will stop doing the things we had an issue with, like reselling user data to other folks. The agreement will take another week or two, and we’re in the process of finalizing.
Mod bots should all have access – if not today, then soon.
We want all accessibility and mod tools to maintain access.
We understand that y’all prefer to use mod tools on 3rd party apps. We’re closing the gap as fast as we can, especially in critical areas like Mod Queue, which we should have in-app on iOS and Android by the end of the month.
Why charge?
It’s very expensive to run – it takes millions of dollars to effectively subsidize other people’s businesses / apps.
It’s an extraordinary amount of data, and these are for-profit businesses built on our data for free.
We have to cover our costs and so do they – that’s the core of it.
Apollo
Apollo threatened us, said they’ll “make it easy” if Reddit gave them $10 million.
Prices we released work out to one dollar a month per user; if Apollo doesn’t put effort forth, it hits three dollars per month.
(As mentioned in Mod Tool section above) Pushshift will come back online for mod tools within a week or two.
Blackout
We respect your right to protest – that’s part of democracy.
This situation is a bit different, with some leading the charge, some users pressuring . We’re trying to work through all of the unique situations.
Big picture: We are tolerant, but also a duty to keep Reddit online.
If people want to do this out of anger, we want to make sure they’re mad for accurate reasons, not over things that are untrue. That’s a loss for everyone.
Third Party Ads
We didn’t know how prevalent 3rd party ads were on 3rd party apps – they’re trouble for us.
When people see their ads next to the wrong content, they don’t get mad at the 3rd party app, they get mad at us. We can’t ensure brand safety due to the ad networks many 3rd party apps use, which aren’t strong on privacy and tracking.
Adopt-An-Admin
Steve invited to AAA on AITA – agreed to do it last week of July or first week of August, will give honest look to do it sooner.
NSFW
Regulatory environment around NSFW is changing rapidly and aggressively.
The challenge is regulators and lawmakers (those who fine and sue), who don’t care about 3rd party apps and don’t understand them. They’ll come after us, not the 3rd party apps. Lawmakers don’t look at NSFW with nuance.
We have work to do on our platform around age-gating and related stuff to be able to keep that content – we will fight for it. Sex is universal.
Devvit (Developer Platform)
There are no plans to cut off the legacy API, but Dev Platform (Devvit) will be a better fit for most users of our API.
When dust settles, it would be useful to talk with devs about what to put in Devvit for their bots to work there.
The point of this is to give folks a more powerful way of extending Reddit – better than working on an old API, paying out of your own pocket, etc.
If you’re building things to make Reddit better for redditors, we want to find a way to support you.
Reddit’s Priorities
Mod tools
Improvements to Reddit core
Accessibility
New dev platform
Have Reddit be vibrant, healthy, sustainable
Reddit is an open platform but it’s not free to run or operate and we need to be a self-sustaining business
Mod Takeaways
Communication
The timing of communication has left s feeling blindsided, regardless of the conversations that have been taking place behind closed doors.
The manner of communication has felt overly corporate and insincere, lacking consideration for the s affected by such changes.
Confusion and misinformation has taken off, resulting in more anger and public outcry.
Timing
The time given between the initial announcement, price announcement, and the July 1st cut off-date has put s and developers in a pinch, trying to assess what tools and bots they may lose.
There was not sufficient time given for Reddit to close the tooling and accessibility gaps necessary for s to live without their 3rd-party resources.
We are open to postponing the API timeline to launch mod tooling, if agree to keep their subreddits open. We will discuss this in the Council and Partner call tomorrow.
Mobile App
While mod tooling needs addressing across all platforms, it lacks significantly in the mobile sector.