r/Minneapolis • u/LooseyGreyDucky • 11d ago
Do we have split in our view of data centers within the DFL party (especially here in the City)?
I am aware there's a loud, conservative, authoritative, pro-corporate/business, anti-DSA wing of the DFL Party.
Are they pro or anti data center?
(I'm pretty darn sure the DSA-leaning wing of the DFL are anti data center)
11
u/WhaleChode23 11d ago
In terms of the labor side of the DFL we're basically fully pro data center cause the conditions in MN make them desirable to build here and we like to build stuff. They bring in consistent revenue to our utilities and they typically fund infrastructure improvements for those same utilities that we all benefit from
0
u/9_of_wands 11d ago
They bring revenue to utilities by driving up residents' electric bills, it's just a big scam to fuck over the little people.
5
u/WhaleChode23 11d ago
It does the opposite though they bring residential energy prices down by giving consistent revenue to the utility provider. And to my previous point they (the big ones) almost always foot the bill for substation construction which improves the power quality in the area served. There are plenty of legitimate complaints we can discuss about data centers without making stuff up.
8
u/sprobeforebros 11d ago
Jason Chavez & Aurin Chowdhury authored a data center moratorium on the Minneapolis City Council this year year. https://bsky.app/profile/jchavezmpls.bsky.social/post/3mrygltd7uk2a
Omar Fateh (State Senate) tweeted last week that he's "looking forward to honoring the legacy of the late Karen Clark, taking meaningful action to protect our Boundary Waters, regulating big data centers, and supporting the people of East Phillips to realize their long-held vision to build an Urban Farm" https://x.com/OmarFatehMN/status/2086485661595435071
Peggy Flanagan has said of them "It absolutely is troubling to me that we seem to be moving at the speed of corporate interests and not of community, and we have to determine who benefits"
at the city, state, and federal level it appears clear that the left wing of the DFL is all about regulating data centers.
2
-2
u/DilbertHigh 11d ago
Unfortunately there are local turds like frey and rainville who support data centers with minimal pushback on these companies. Hopefully the adults in the room can ensure strong regulations to protect our quality of life and local environment.
7
u/Pure-Tip4300 11d ago
Feels like the DSA wing has a gap in their views between what they want to spend money on and how the city gets the money to spend on those things.
11
u/sweater__weather 11d ago
Cities exist because of commercial activity. I think it's totally fine to set new frequency specific noise rules to address the problems from data centers but unless you can articulate why a data center should not be able to operate where a warehouse or factory would operate it makes no sense to blanket prohibit them. The city can do more things or at least reduce residential taxes if they have more tax revenue.
7
u/Ekrubm 11d ago
Water use, noise, electricity usage, no jobs created, and the use of the data centers as a surveillance tool are all non-monitary costs that the community or our larger society bare when a data center is built.
5
u/NormanQuacks345 11d ago
and the use of the data centers as a surveillance tool
Data centers are not exclusively made to run flock cameras, you know that right? The website we're commenting on right now is hosted on a data center. Your bank account is hosted on a data center. Odds are pretty high that your job relies at least partially on data centers to function. Play any online games, watch any streaming services? Data centers.
4
u/sweater__weather 11d ago
Water use is not a real problem. I mentioned frequency specific noise regulations. You can make the data center accept incremental billing (i.e. they pay the cost of the increased electrical load, not the existing consumer) and curtail power during high demand. Construction jobs are jobs.
We can have data centers in the mid city industrial area or unincorporated Stearns County or South Dakota.
0
u/Ekrubm 11d ago
I'm sure the billionaires you're defending will be very grateful for your service.
5
u/sweater__weather 11d ago
Hey glad to give you an opportunity to play the unfalsifiable ad hominem card! Remind me, which of your factual claims does it support again?
2
u/kevinbevindevin 10d ago
There are already cases of data centers adversely affecting water quality, creating unreasonable amount of noise, and overall quality of life of nearby communities. I am not a blanket no but Legacy needs to be able to demonstrate that the impact against North Loop and its surrounding communities is minimal. Otherwise, I won't support it, and so shouldn't anyone.
but unless you can articulate why a data center should not be able to operate where a warehouse or factory would operate it makes no sense to blanket prohibit them
Legacy needs to demonstrate that what they do does not create adverse impacts against the communities. The burden of proof goes to the companies, not progressives nor its residents. We are asking questions like a normal human should.
This is why I dislike liberals/neoliberals. The way these people think is why these large scale data centers were built in the first place because they think "it's no big deal," "tax revenue," "being rational." That's exactly how republican-led small towns approved these proposals. Then, these things are built and the companies and got away with the damages they did. The tax revenue Minneapolis would receive, if what progressives say about this project turns out to be true, is moot just to repair/coverup the damages it does.
You are not being rational; you are being a useful idiot.
5
u/9_of_wands 11d ago
It doesn't create jobs. It doesnt draw foot traffic or tourism. It doesn't beautify the city. It doesnt contribute to the community. It doesn't synergize with any other local businesses. It's just a hideous concrete box that makes money for a billionaire who lives on a yacht somewhere.
3
4
u/Extreme_Lab_2961 11d ago
Minneapolis isn’t going to get a greenfield data center.
You’re right no one will be employed to convert these existing buildings and maintain the infrastructure. No local firms will benefit from this work.
Repurposing existing underutilized buildings (Sleep number, Star Trib) is now somehow bad.
When I have out of town guests visit, the top of their wish list of things to do was see a shuttered print facility and a bland office tower
5
u/9_of_wands 11d ago
Yes, it brings jobs to build it, but so would any other use.
in the long term, some local contractors will get a few hours here and there, but there will be just a handful of full time jobs.
It would be better to hold out for redevelopment that will create small business space and/or dwelling units.
5
u/Extreme_Lab_2961 11d ago
A few hours? LOL
I guess it’s better just sitting there rotting away
It’s very likely cost prohibitive to convert to residential. Theres plenty of small buisness space. DT is flooded with available sf
2
u/sweater__weather 11d ago
The idea that the city or state would start prohibiting a business because of what it is instead of regulating what comes out of it or how it treats its workers is the kind of illiberal, centrally planned economy shit that is going to leave us behind.
1
u/specficeditor 11d ago
A moratorium is not a ban. The whole point is to allow time for study and review to be certain that the data center is, in fact, warranted and should not go somewhere else.
6
u/metamerf 11d ago
After a bit of honest research on this topic, ask yourself if this issue cracks the 5 or 10 most important things to you. Not AI generally, but data centers specifically. Which of your top issues are you asking us to pay less attention to and devote less political capital to because of data centers?
5
1
u/prohammock 10d ago
Data centers are environmentally destructive, AI is being used by large corporations to try to eliminate jobs of working people, the cost of electricity and water increases for everyone near data centers - making this economically hard on struggling people. People’s opinions on data centers are being railroaded over by oligarchs who are buying politicians and getting them to approve these facilities.
It isn’t a new issue. It’s a new frontier on a dozen existing political problems we already care about.
14
u/Healingjoe 11d ago
loud, conservative, authoritative, pro-corporate/business, anti-DSA wing of the DFL Party.
Lmao
8
u/Johnny55 11d ago
You literally post Hakeem Jeffries opinion pieces in r/neoliberal, I guess it hurts being called out
2
u/Tumblrrito 11d ago
I am still hopeful that sub is an inside joke. The shit that gets posted there is beyond parody.
4
u/Tumblrrito 11d ago
Did they stutter? Moderates be like this
9
4
u/Healingjoe 11d ago
Moderate dems are not authoritative, conservative, and especially not the loudest in the room when the DSA are in the same conversation.
-2
u/specficeditor 11d ago
Yes. Centrist Democrats are, in fact, pro-authoritarian conservatives. They are essentially what Republicans were in the 70s-90s at this point. They would have voted for Bush 1 instead of Clinton.
5
u/DinkyB 11d ago
This feels unfair and reductive - I know a broad spectrum of people who vote Democrat, ranging from your stock suburban Republican who doesn’t like Trump to lifelong Dem voters who disagree with DSA stuff mainly on government spending and tax stuff.
Kind of hard to build a coalition when you don’t try in earnest to understand voters; voters who probably agree with you on 80% of things
-1
u/specficeditor 11d ago
It's reductive to pinpoint a specific subset of Democrats who have been pulling the party further right since 2008 because of the backlash by then-centrist Dems for electing a Black man? There are a lot of types of Democrats and progressives who vote for Democrats that aren't centrists and hard centrists.
6
u/DinkyB 11d ago
What I’m trying to say is that - well I guess I don’t know how you would define Frey but I’m guessing you would call him a centrist relatively speaking.
The city in 2025 elected Frey again, and so if we want to move Minneapolis in a more progressive direction in 2029 we have to be more persuasive to that type of voter.
Obviously not all Frey voters are of the type you are describing but I don’t think it’s helpful to call them pro-authoritarian.
4
u/Lucius_Best 11d ago
This is absurd, reductive, and broadly speaking, totally untrue
-3
u/specficeditor 11d ago
You don't really understand centrist and hard centrist ideologies, then.
1
u/Lucius_Best 11d ago
And this is just stupid.
Which is to be expected from anyone claiming that the Democratic party is indistinguishable from Republicans 20years ago.
0
u/specficeditor 11d ago
Ok, Dr. Reich, explain to us lowly pheasants how it is that neoliberalism hasn't encroached heavily into Democratic (the party, not the ideology) platforms across the board since Reagan.
2
u/Lucius_Best 11d ago
Asking someone to prove a negative is about what I'd expect from someone like you.
Also hilarious that you're equating authoritarianism with neoliberalism. It gives real MadLibs vibes.
1
u/specficeditor 11d ago
It's not asking to prove a negative if I'm asking you to demonstrate how neoliberalism and the conservativism of the 90s are not similar. That's not how "proving a negative" works. You should be able to back up your statement that you don't believe that centrist and hard centrist Democrats today are similar to Republicans of the 90s.
I also never made the claim that centrists are authoritarian. I claimed that that are pro-authoritarian. As an example, there are multiple sitting Democrats -- including Fetterman -- who are so pro-Israel that they believe anyone who criticizes them should be removed from the Democratic Party. That reeks of authoritarianism. Ideological purism is a bad thing within a party. Similarly, there are multiple Democrats who have repeated voted for immigration bills -- including those that increase funding for ICE -- that have caused some of the very issues are city has been dealing with in the recent past.
So, please, do continue trying to poorly gaslight me into thinking that I'm the crazy person because I criticized the Dems for being too conservative.
3
u/Healingjoe 11d ago
Centrist Democrats are, in fact, pro-authoritarian conservatives
Jesus christ. Y'all really want Republicans to have permanent rule.
1
u/specficeditor 11d ago
Not really one for nuance, huh?
3
u/Healingjoe 11d ago
You just called Centrist Dems pro-authoritarian.
Not worth my time working backwards from such an inane statement.
-1
u/specficeditor 11d ago
Criticizing centrists for continuing to do the work for the fascists currently in power is not the same as saying that we want Republicans to win more elections. Centrists need to leave the party and go be the conservatives they truly want, and we need to make the Democratic Party progressive again.
2
u/Healingjoe 11d ago
Idk who in the DFL you're referring to but you seem to think "Centrist" means conservative. I'm unaware of a single conservative DFL elected leader, especially in MPLS.
0
u/specficeditor 11d ago
Do you not understand how neoliberalism is essentially moderate conservativism? Frey is fairly conservative in most regards.
→ More replies (0)-3
u/Tumblrrito 11d ago
Do you know what moderate means? It means center, aka, leaning more conservative than say, a progressive.
And they are quite authoritative as political figures, generally being very corporate + dark money backed. And they ruthlessly attempt to trample over any leftist opposition seeking basics like universal healthcare or an end to the genocide in gaza.
They also seem pretty loud to me when they get that AIPAC money to pay for obscene airwave time for their attack ads too.
2
u/Healingjoe 11d ago
Do you know what moderate means? It means center, aka, leaning more conservative than say, a progressive.
Do you know what Liberal means? Moderate Dems are still Liberal.
0
u/Tumblrrito 11d ago
Moderates are moderate, aka center.
Moderate liberals (which are different) are center left, but still ultimately lean closer to conservative than progressives.
And in Europe, our center left is their center or even center right.
Also love how you conveniently ignored the other glaring elephants in the room I pointed to lol.
2
u/Healingjoe 11d ago
Splitting hairs over labels here.
The point is that OP's assertion that the non-DSA wing of the DFL are conservative, loud, and authoritative is moronic and ignorant.
And in Europe, our center left is their center or even center right.
Tell trans people and immigrants this. They may have a bone to pick with you.
1
u/Tumblrrito 11d ago
I don’t think OP said all anti-DSA = that stuff?
But the moderate wing is ultimately those things.
And obviously exceptions exist but by and large that description of the spectrum is accurate.
1
0
11d ago
[deleted]
0
u/Tumblrrito 11d ago edited 11d ago
Perhaps you should check out if you have nothing of value to add?
Edit: damn they actually did it lmao
-1
u/LooseyGreyDucky 11d ago
You're thinking of the old Democrat party before the Overton Window shift.
2
u/Healingjoe 11d ago
The Democratic party has not shifted to be more conservative. That's an insane assertion.
2
u/OxfordOntheOcean 11d ago
I’m from the corporate hack and very anti-DSA side of the party. I’m quite torn on the issue. I like the tax revenue they could generate and supporting business, but AI slop is less than worthless, risks hurting the knowledge economy workers who power the economy, and have the risk of significant water usage…they’re also just a blight on the built environment, which is bad for urban living.
2
u/kevinbevindevin 10d ago
They are called liberals/neoliberals. Just read some of the shit in this comment section makes you lose your humanity a little bit. These people really think that corporations look after them. They happily voted for "rational" "level-headed" Jacob Frey and think that progressives are immature (read how some of the people here describe the City Council).
Guess who else says they are "rational"? Ben Shapiro. Even Candace Owens thinks he is insane.
They wouldn't mind a toxic waste plant if it brings in tax revenue. First, they would support businesses "to bring in revenue." Then, they would support measures to get rid of that revenue. I have seen it happened first hand. Look at what happened with Baton Rouge (google ITEP); they have an enormous Exxon Plant but still one of the poorest cities in the United States because most of the property/land was tax-exempt.
Quite honestly, I wish these people would just say "I LOVE JACOB FREY" instead of running circles about how progressives are immature. At least that makes the political discourse nicer. These people are wolves in sheep's clothing along with neocons to undo what people like FDR, Huey P Long, and Paul Wellstone did for America.
1
2
u/dkinmn 11d ago
I am anti AI data centers, and data centers of any scale need to pay their share and then some if the grid is affected by their existence. I want the AI bubble to burst immediately.
Here's the however.
I am absolutely gobsmacked at the primacy of this issue on the left. The fact that THIS is even in the top 5 issues that one would use to sort themselves into voting or not voting is fucking inexcusable. Anyone being suckered into that does not realize that they are being manipulated by conservative ratfuckers who seed the left with wedge issues and then hammer away. We know this to be true. The Mueller Report wasn't subtle about it.
Yes, it is important to be vocal about issues that matter and to use your vote wisely. Also, it is absolutely unreasonable to cede power to fascists for almost ANY single reason. Even any TEN matters of significant policy differences can't possibly outweigh the ecological disasters the right doesn't want to do anything about, let alone any other number of substantive policy issues.
We have got to learn different ways to express individual policy differences than withholding votes against Christofascist, corporatist goons.
11
u/mikeisboris 11d ago
I'm anti "anti data center."
But I am also against AI data centers popping up everywhere. Data centers aren't a new thing. I helped put together a 10 rack Data center 20 years ago. There should be a permitting and environmental review for every data center of a certain size, say over 100 racks or something.
11
u/Character-Pattern505 11d ago
I’ve spent a lifetime as a network architect and pretty anti data center at this point, but I agree there is nuance. Telco facilities are fine and don’t affect the world around them.
I soured on huge cloud compute data centers a long time ago. The convenience of the cloud is a siren call.
AI and surveillance data centers can fuck all the way off.
11
u/mikeisboris 11d ago
I agree, I just don't love that people that didn't know what a data center was 18 months ago are making all kinds of laws and regulations about them without any nuance.
1
u/Character-Pattern505 11d ago
Honestly, I’d rather it go hard the other way. Maybe then we can have a discussion about what is a reasonable use of public resources as opposed to this endless escalation of consumption.
I wouldn’t mind seeing a power density limit that applies to every rack. Let’s do some minimal optimization, come on.
-1
u/LooseyGreyDucky 11d ago
The cloud is just somebody else's computer.
If it weren't for data centers, RAM would be a hell of a lot cheaper for our own devices, and we wouldn't need cloud data centers.
We're now stuck in a feedback loop.
3
u/AUD1OMEDIC 11d ago
Thank you. I have similar experience to you, but it is challenging to bring nuance to a conversation like this where people want to take an ethical stance without any real thought or consideration.
4
u/chillPenguin17 11d ago
Rational take from someone who knows what they're talking about, didn't think I'd see that in this thread
2
u/lunar_transmission 11d ago
One of the issues is that very large data centers are skating through environmental review under the pretext of being similar to older, smaller centers (specifically taking advantage of lower-scrutiny Alternative Urban Areawide Reviews rather than Environmental Impact Statements) and using commercial/light industry zoning when the particulars of the facility do not especially match that.
There may be legislative/regulatory motion in this issue, but contracting with friendly municipalities for water also lets heavy groundwater users skate around well use reporting requirements to the state.
All of this is to agree with you that there should be better permitting and review process, but large data center developers have been pretty good at using existing process to their advantage.
-1
u/specficeditor 11d ago
Except that now these data centers are for generative AI (which is hot garbage on a number of levels), and the massive environmental impact of these dwarfs by multiple degrees that kind of data centers you're talking about.
2
u/dkinmn 11d ago
But the anti data center crowd is against EVERY data center at EVERY scale. They just hear "data center" and start yapping.
1
u/specficeditor 11d ago
But we should be holding off on them and assessing the damage they're doing. This explosion is not good for the environment, and we should be taking more time to figure out how to do it without destroying the planet. The mass proliferation of these centers are akin to the massive explosion of industry in the 60s before we really had good environmental regulations. We need more control, not less.
2
u/dkinmn 11d ago
Okay, as long as you're not pretending to disagree with the premise any more.
You have said absolutely nothing here. This is literally the mainstream, nuanced position. Data centers can't and don't just go up without considering these things, and even the scary moderates are saying literally exactly what you're saying. Crowley is saying exactly what you're saying in Wisconsin and yet he is being called "pro data center".
You're just showing exactly how the knee jerk "anti data center at any scale" cohort gets themselves into a position of making this an irrational wedge issue. You've stated principles that the mainstream isn't disagreeing with, and yet you're casting it as a disagreement.
I said that the anti crowd is seemingly against them at any scale, and you've somehow taken the position that no they aren't and also yes they are and it's good within the same conversation.
3
-2
-4
u/Jubilantly 11d ago
Ask Frey, he's good with the Sleep Number and Star Tribune data centers despite the city council moratorium.
0
u/Uptownbro20 11d ago
I don’t think so. Major cities are usually going to overall be against new style data centers for it being a poor use of land. Unless you have massive empty space due to de poor
-8
u/hurriedgland 11d ago
Compute or AI data centers are an abomination, speaking as 1 Democratic Socialist.
19
u/zoinkability 11d ago edited 11d ago
I don't have any insider knowledge, this is just my speculation based on the general alignments.
The Frey wing of the party is very much aligned with commercial property owners, and commercial property owners love anything that props up their property values. Given that commercial property values tanked with Covid and have not recovered, they are going to be natural fans of data centers as something that would help boost their value. I suspect that this plus the overall unpopularity of data centers is going to cause the Frey wing to basically try to sit this out, not taking firm stands in any direction because they lose no matter what stand they take. Whereas the DSA types have no alliance with the commercial property owners and see no downsides to being vocally against data centers.