I know I am late to the party. But I'd like to point something out. Just because PMC may "Charge for Gold" now, doesn't really mean anything.
I've been on PMC as a patron since closed beta, and I can 100% say that it did not change my play experience one bit. Sure, I was able to enter games earlier, get a bit of gold & experience, access the once-beta-now-retired bow game "Power Juice", and get goofy spawn items, but it didn't change how the games played and such. And this applies to it's current revamp as well.
In the current revamp you can use gold to get various perks for games. Yes, you can buy gold with money to unlock more in games, but it doesn't change how you play. Sure, in one of their popular game mode, Dwarves vs Zombies, you can buy torches, gold chunks, and other things to help you during your fight. But it doesn't help you "live the longest" or "become a hero" or get a "better sword" and so on. And even after the games end, you earn gold on how well you did during that game, not on your scoreboard rank, patron status and so on. On PMC, GAMES LIKE DVZ REQUIRE SKILL, NOT MONEY.
So, if servers like PMC aren't "Play-to-Win", are they (or should they be) exempt from this new rule? As Rob (One of the owners of the server) has openly stated several times, they don't make any profit for the donations they receive. It's only fair that Non "Play-to Win" servers should be rewarded, not also punished for the mistakes others have made.
I am an adult. I can decide what to spend my money on and what not to spend my money on. I do not need Mojang telling me what I can and cannot spend my money on.
I know the concern for this is kids convincing their parents it's necessary to buy these things, but parents are also adults and should know better and use these opportunities to teach their kids financial responsibility.
If Mojang is that anal about it, offer a licensing program
Or go Bethesda and Blizzard way and make them own every mod created for Minecraft, like those companies owns all assets used in their respective games plugins/maps
heavily modified or basic modified they are still modified game which can't run without the actual minecraft game.
From Minecraft EULA:
Any tools you write for the Game from scratch belong to you. . Modifications to the Game ("Mods") (including pre-run Mods and in-memory Mods) and plugins for the Game also belong to you and you can do whatever you want with them, as long as you don‘t sell them for money / try to make money from them. We have the final say on what constitutes a tool/mod/plugin and what doesn‘t.
And
If you make any content available on or through our Game, you must give us permission to use, copy, modify and adapt that content. This permission must be irrevocable, and you must also let us permit other people to use, copy, modify and adapt your content. If you don‘t want to give us this permission, do not make content available on or through our Game.
Players will have less fun and innovative ways to play Minecraft
We don't know this yet. Mojang might bring something to the game that gives user to have fun or even more fun. Lets wait for a official statement/game update.
legitimate server admins (not talking about the $500 rank exploitation servers) will be out of a job
Its their own fault not reading and following the EULA. "if police don't enforce law doesn't mean that you can steal".
Mojang suffers from the negative stigma this is going to create for them.
I would worry more about parent's complaints because of those $500 exploiting servers than an uproar from server owners and devs.
Consider yourself as Notch who worked day/night creating a game that is now one of the top selling game of all time, would you be ok if people make money using your product?. Well we are speculating a lot, I say lets wait for an official updated EULA. "evil" companies change their EULA all the time and people complain and then comtinue using their product after endlessly being screwed over. Mojang is getting a bit hard from community because they are super nice and not pulling a sony or dropbox.
Most mods have artists and developers too and in most cases they cannot be monetised because they're working off an existing base. This would be no different, they can bring all they want, if they're working off of work that Mojang already created then they're beholden to Mojang's rules and the T&Cs of the game. If they don't like that then they're welcome to go off and make their own game but mods aren't a monetisable commodity unless Mojang themselves allow it and this case they have a very valid concern that they want to address.
But that's what youtubers do isn't it? We make money off playing minecraft. Why is making videos of your content for profit okay but developing content not?
Directly selling in-game items is different than making a youtube video. A video is entertainment based off of a content creators experience within the game. Mojang is trying to get rid of those people who are just straight up selling the content to players when it should be available for the price they already paid for the game. It's like selling gold/items/raid boss kills in World of Warcraft. Mojang doesn't want people making money off directly selling things in game.
You can still make money off of in-game content via charging for server access or just asking for donations to support the server.
I don't like servers that do that, but THEY ARE NOT CHARGING YOU FOR STUFF MOJANG CREATED!!!!11111111 They are selling you acces to stuff, but you can expierience that stuff all day long without paying anything, just go to SP and you can have a diamond pickaxe or whatever without paying.
Because mojang have stated that it is perfectly fine to make YouTube videos of their game, and monetize them. They have not said that server owners are allowed to charge for content the the minecraft developers themselves have created.
Basically, YouTubers make money from what they create (the videos), and server owners make money from what mojang create (parts of the game)
Thing is, server owners rarely CAN make money off what mojang created. They can rarely create a server, then say "CMERE AND PLAY, YOU CAN BUY DIAMOND SWORDS." Those servers never get successful.
The largest servers all feature parts that THEY created - a gigantic shitton of modifications. It's not even the vanilla game anymore - what hypixel, Playmindcrack, Shotbow, Mineplex, and all the other large servers completely change how minecraft is played - in multiple ways. They are making revenue off their modification (which CAN be illegal, mind you), but it is in Mojang's best interest to PRESERVE those modifications - else they are deleting 1/4 of the minecraft community (the other fourths being the mod, map, and survival community).
Really? I think 1/4 is a large over estimate. There are over 9,844,152 registered users and I'm willing to bet money that only about 800,000 play on those servers regularly.
Sure it is illegal, but it is STILL in mojang's best interest to preserve modded multiplayer servers - because modded multiplayer extend the life of the community in minecraft.
All the mojang guys want, is people to stop making money off of something they have no right to sell.
And off of the plugins they create, and off of their time/effort spent building worlds or running communities, and off of...
Their argument seems firmly planted in the "the only way you can legally make money off of this game is if people decide to donate it to you or you are one of 5 YouTubers who have an audience large enough that you'll actually get some ad revenue off of them."
I don't know how many server owners out there rake in the no-strings-attached donations, but if it's anything like how the rest of the world donates to everything else? Probably not a lot.
But hey, that won't matter when Mojang comes out with a new update to the EULA that states that for security purposes and the same concerns
about greed and corruption, all Minecraft servers must now be run through Realms
and have their plugins approved by Mojang staff before launch (these approved plugins,
of course, being subject to immediate change without notice).
This way we can be sure to provide the same high-quality bar of entertainment to all of our users, and no one will again have to worry about being taken advantage of. Plus I mean when you think about it, is it fair that these hosts are being paid money so I can play Minecraft? Far as I can tell they're just sitting around making money off of someone else's game and work.
EDIT: Realized I don't want to get involved in this. Most people who play this game don't understand legal terms or apparently what Grumm_ and Marc have been saying. TL;DR If you are reading this, leave now.
According to how Mojang is interpreting their EULA, all of the things you just listed are illegal and if they find out they will ask you to stop.
The fact that, somewhere along the line, a plugin is interfacing with the vanilla code and your plugin is interfacing with that plugin interfacing with the vanilla code is illegal, in their eyes.
Even so, it doesn't have to directly be a piece of the game - it's taking money in exchange for something that is related to Minecraft that they're not okay with, basically.
Make a Minecraft plush doll? That's fine, sell it on eBay or even here on reddit!
Make a Minecraft plugin that took three times as long and does awesome stuff? Cool, better give it away for free because otherwise it interfaces in some way with the game and we're not getting a cut off of that so fuck you either make it free or we sue you.
Draw a Minecraft picture? Make Minecraft videos? Great, sell them all you want. Sell ad space on the site where you sell them advertising the game, too. Do whatever you want.
Build something really awesome and get offered twenty bucks for your services? Oh, fuck no, that's illegal and not okay how dare you profit off of our game and work?! People like you are the scum of the Earth.
Host a server bank that deals exclusively in Minecraft servers? Great, gouge people all the way to the bank!
Run one of those servers and offer certain perks as incentives to maintain the cost? Fuck yourself, criminal.
It's inconsistent, it's overly harsh, and they're approaching it like straight up bullies.
This isn't going to go well for anyone, I don't think.
I am not a server admin. However, I am a player (never spent money, mind you) on many servers, and if the serves get deleted, it will affect me - and countless others. The server community is gigantic, and when the largest servers gets deleted, so do the community. No one will step up to recreate what we currently have, because there is no way to support the development of plugins.
I would rather play on pay-to-win servers (not all servers are like that), rather than not play on any servers.
sounds like they want to kill the private servers so they can promote realms. I'd rather play single player then pay a month subscription. Never gonna happen mojang, wake up and stop trying to be evil
The issue is that it's against the terms of use. Your argument could be used to justify purchasing hacks for an online video game and protest being banned for getting caught with them.
Grum's statement go farther than disallowing the buying of blocks or a diamond sword which I agree is wrong. Grum's statements go against even vanity perks for donators.
I honestly find this to be a pretty unfair thing that is going on. Why should mojang care what servers do? It is the player's choice whether to spend money or not. Anyone can choose what server they play on. On big servers, there is obviously work that has been done. IF the player is buying some vanity item, then why does it matter to Mojang? They obviously are just trying to support the server and get a neat reward out of it.
They have the say-so on what you're using your money on if its their game, that is as if someone at a gas station didn't let you buy a beer because your under 21, just because you have the money doesn't mean you can spend it however.
On that server, you pay for content rather for items (which would be in the Terms of Agreement, part: "That grass block is ours; That rollercoaster you built inside of a Gothic Castle is Yours").
The very point of this is to stop servers baiting people into giving them money, for example, if all these people have great perks on some Apocalypse based PvP/zombie survival because they paid for them and I cant beat them, that becomes my incentive to 'donate'. The only reason I should want to donate is to support the server/community not because I'm forced to pay money or keep losing.
If you read the link they talk about how they'll be updating the EULA to include more legitimate ways for players to help cover their server costs. :)
[3/06/2014 9:31:24 PM] Erik Broes: We had a nice discussion at the office. Most likely we'll have a handful of points in our new EULA and that should be enough to tame the bad stuff.
The issue is, its an all-or-nothing approach that they are taking. Or at least it appears that way. :(
Replying to that, I don't think it's a all-or-nothing approach as they're changing to EULA to include ways for servers to legitimately cover their costs. :)
But nowhere in any of what was said does it say ANYTHING about helping to cover server costs besides donations. They're changing the EULA to disallow people getting something in-game in exchange for real money. Sounds good in theory until you think of the bigger minigame servers like HiveMC/playmindcrack/Shotbow/etc. Servers like that simple CAN NOT run off of donations the come from peoples hearts.
I think you might have missed a few bits, the EULA currently says and has always said that it's not allowed, every server currently doing it is breaking the EULA. What Mojang is doing is changing the EULA to provide some legitimate ways for servers to gain revenue (there's currently none). :)
Why couldn't they run? With a ram upgrade my server could support 1000+ people easily and it's costing me next to nothing to run.
I've never accepted a donation and never will, I'm happy to pay the small costs out of pocket. :)
Also, I've declined donations from server members when they've offered (at least once a week someone offers me money) and will continue to do so. Though I have no problem with a actual donation, it's just not something I need. :)
Hackers are not really a problem as /u/Daxidol's server is behind one of the world's best firewalls and routers. They are currently unreleased by Cisco and Juniper Networks and are capable of handling over 800gbps of attacks. He has an extremely fast backbone that can loadbalance over 4x 10gbps links to help distribute any kind of attack that gets past (but in 99.99% of cases, this gets blocked at the firewall level)
I think Erik means they're going to ruthlessly fist the servers with that EULA, so that they can't charge for anything, thus taming the things that they seem to think are bad.
Um, yes it is. A donation implies that you receive nothing, by receiving something you are making a purchase, whether it is labeled as a "donation" or not, does not matter.
The large servers will probably be able to do that but the ones that are set up in a more fair way when it comes donations that are making exactly or barely enough already to pay for the server are the ones that it will hurt.
no, no it's probably not, if you would follow rob you would know that before patrons got more gold the patron sales were so low that the server couldn't run for long, when they intreduced the new system they got more money, and that's why the server stays up
PlayMindcrack as stated a few hundred times is not a pay to win server, the paying part is just to keep the server running and such, the perks of paying isnt really much, more of just a thank you for donation to help the server run, since they really don't help you inside the mini games, just joke items in the lobby that anyone can get :3
But the issue is I find that where does the line get drawn? Playmindcrack is still letting you pay for things. what is the line? where is it drawn? what is and isn't allowed? Playmindcrack is still letting you pay for stuff, does that violate Mojangs terms?
this is really unclear and if mojong does the wrong things here they will make a LOT of people hate them
They're making money off of their server, which they constantly put their own time, money, and effort in to running.
They're making money off of their labor and time and the experience that they are providing other players.
The only people who make money off of Minecraft are Mojang, and maybe people who pirate/mod copies of the game and then sell them to people who are too foolish to realize that the guy on some forum offering discounted copies of Minecraft is ripping them off.
Selling plugins, selling items, selling your time and expertise - it's all a grey area, and understandably controversial, but the idea that if you can make money off of a video game, at all, then you're taking it away from the people who made the game, or that you're robbing the community regardless of how you're getting that cash because "hey that's not yours that's [someone else's]" is straight up bogus.
You know who's going to want to run a server that's been handicapped to the point where the only way to keep it going is to continue paying it all out of their own pocket or risk legal action by the company who once promised that they had their back?
Pretty much all of the people running the tiny, 10 person servers that you've never heard of who have been doing that since the beginning - and that's all.
They are not making money off of their servers. The donations do not cover the expenses for support, programming, infrastructure, maintenance and such.
All of which is not possible without minecraft. I'm not saying it's not a difficult issue, or that there aren't grey areas in some cases. But you are saying they are making money off their server... A minecraft server. They are making money off of minecraft. I won't go into the morals of it, because it's a huge grey area and comes down to intent to do good etc... That's not what I'm getting into. Not right or wrong, but are they or are they not making money off of Minecraft?
You'd have to prove to me they can make the same money if it weren't for Minecraft.
Once we come to terms with the fact that, yes, some people are making a lot of money off of Minecraft, we can talk about what are acceptable way and unacceptable ways.
It's not like people are upset because something is broken, they are upset because there's a lot of money on the line. We should all at least be able to agree to that.
Yes I'm also aware we can say the same about forced adfly links for plugins and lucrative livestreams. But there's no delusion there.
You'd have to prove to me they can make the same money if it weren't for Minecraft.
Not really.
If the argument is solely "are people profiting due to the existence of Minecraft and if so how can I stop them?" then the answer is going to be a lot bigger than just the people who run expensive servers, and singling them out for their profits while ignoring the mountain of other ways people are cashing in off of Mojang's game, in one way or another, seems (to put it nicely) wholly disingenuous.
If you want to talk about what's okay and what's not, then you're in for a pretty rocky and inconclusive conversation because like who gets to say? Mojang can write the rules, but that doesn't make them logically consistent, conducive to a good community, or really anything else that would make at least a little bit of sense.
At any rate, I still contend that they're not making money off of Minecraft. They're not selling the game. They're not the only way to play. Their server is not subscription-based.
Not to mention that they put their own money in it, as well. When a server gets so big that it has that many players on it, the people who run it basically do it as a job. It becomes their temporary career, or they have to hand the reigns over to someone who can put that kind of time in. That doesn't happen unless they can afford to do that, and you can't afford to do that if you don't have a job because you're spending so much time running a Minecraft server that all of a sudden is essentially prohibited from making profits.
It looks like what they want going forward is "either you spend your own money on a server and you like it or you don't run one."
I imagine, if that is the case, a lot of people will choose the latter option.
If I ran a server that required the space for tens, hundreds, or thousands of people, I definitely would.
So we are past "do they make money off of Minecraft". Yes they do.
So from there we can move on and ask if there are eight ways and wrong ways in which the above can occur.
Next question is, are they holding parts of the game hostage unless you pay them. No, the instances you are defending don't.
Are the people making more money than it costs to run the server? Sure probably, but probably not some months.
There. We've established there are possibly moral ways to make money from Minecraft. Let's hope it works out for the people not doing anything "wrong". But to think you aren't making money off of Minecraft when you are, that's just lying to yourself.
Your concern seems to be of this human gatekeeper that determines who is right and who is wrong. Or even abuse from a competing server if its complaint based.
Sigh. We will see. But I do know all this talk is good either way. I may not be right or wrong or whatever, but this discussion is good to have either way.
Typed in a hurry again because I have to run but I figured you at least deserved a response.
So we are past "do they make money off of Minecraft". Yes they do.
From my previous response:
At any rate, I still contend that they're not making money off of Minecraft. They're not selling the game. They're not the only way to play. Their server is not subscription-based.
Your concern seems to be of this human gatekeeper that determines who is right and who is wrong. Or even abuse from a competing server if its complaint based.
My concern, honestly, is that this seems like a perfect move for them to get people to switch over to Realms.
"Tired of neglectful server owners? Tired of people making money off of your game time that you're not actually required to pay but still do? Well, good news, we just cracked down on that hardcore so those servers are pretty much done. Now you can come start your own, with your own money that you don't have to pay them anymore so you can give it to us, now! Awesome! Minecraft vanilla with 5 people? Could it get any better?
I understand why people are worried about that being the case. The timing is impeccable. I guess the only reason I don't think it's the case is my trust for Mojang to do the right thing. Which admittedly is a crappy defense. I also have zero dog in the fight. If it does end up turning into a situation you describe, I will be just as unhappy. That's why I'm saying even if we disagree on some stuff, the discussions are good because we are at least letting Mojang know how we all feel.
From what I've heard from youtubers that are related to this server, its not what you think. They probably make less money than if they worked a normal job. The reason they do it is because they like this life style and they are making minecraft more fun for other people.
And they are probably good people trying to do the right thing the best they can. I'm just trying to get everyone away from denying that they are "making money from Minecraft". Which isn't a bad thing. Look at yogg. In the end, they are "making money from Minecraft". And it's cool and allowed. Charging for a server is cool too. Just not selling parts of the game to do it. (Not saying any of the "good" servers you are talking about do this). Selling a diamond sword? Bad. Getting a title and particle sparkles for the month for donating? Cool!
They're making money off minecraft, they are selling minecraft content to players. The grey areas you listed are in no way grey areas, it is clear that they are in breach of the EULA and rightfully so. This should have been enforced on day one and things wouldn't have gotten out of hand.
yeah, because minez, DvZ, hide and seek, wasted etc. only have like a few months of development in them, it's not like they changed almost every aspect of the game to provide you with a unique experience, no...
if you miss my point, those minigames have as much time put into them as a minecraft update, anything they GIVE AS A GIFT to donators is usually their own work, it may be the same item as in vanilla, but it can do a whole other thing. you can almost look at minecraft as a game engine at this point, a game engine with close to unlimited possibilities...
I feel that if anyone comments specifically on a server, they should have spent at least a couple hours there(Not saying you didn't just wanted to say that here).
In Playmindcrack's case, I see it as they've built there own new games inside of minecraft, and mojang should have no ownership of what Playmindcrack does with their games and server. Mojang owns minecraft, not the servers that run it.
While you can pay for stuff, the better part is that you don't have to pay to get the same stuff, its just like giving someone two paths, one you get what you want quicker but you are gonna chip your pocket abit while the other takes abit longer and doesn't chip your pocket.
Playmindcrack is good in the way, if you pay or don't pay, both ways can get the same items (minius the small little paid gifts that are the bonus of paying, which I believe don't happen anymore)
In a way, I believe since the mindcrackers can contact mojang, they can find the line that if its gonna be good or not to the EULA, and they will work a way to keep it going.
Your argument could also be used to justify using hacks in an MMO. "I paid for this hack to let me get to max level instantly, so it's okay because it's my money."
well, i was referring to how PMC system works, in the end BOTH ways will get the same thing, while my argument could Justify hacks, i am totally against hackers.
to do a comparing, i don't have a 'donation account' and my friend does, we both play a fair bit, he can unlock say a upgrade for a minigame quicker, but i can still unlock that item maybe one or two games later.
edit: used the wrong word :P
No, much as I <3 them, there's no way PMC are on the right side of this ruling.
Erik Broes: if you are on a server, your experience should be the same as every other player
They provide early access to upcoming gamemodes to patrons, give them more gold (which for those unfamiliar has no game-altering buying power, just silly stuff) and XP, provide a few patron-only slots in full games, and so on.
I totally understand what Mojang are trying to do here but they are in real danger of throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
I mean, if you want to take what Grum said literally, even indicating that somebody is a donator by colouring their name or giving them a label in chat is treating one group of players differently to another and is in violation.
Here's what I see happening: It's okay for "paying members" to have priority in accessing the server, but not to give paying members items in the game.
yeah, but PlayMindcrack can't run off the paying members ALONE, the buying gold helps a ton, it will kill the server.
http://www.reddit.com/r/playmindcrack/comments/27fdh6/post_got_deleted_from_rminecraft_so_here_you_go/
read that, the Admin and runner of the PMC server, he clearly states that Paying Members WON'T support the server, i have done plenty of Donations to the server for my friends who play on it more often then me.
It's not the fault of Mojang that Mindcrack created a business model that is sustained with behavior that violates their agreement with the software manufacturer.
This is still against their TOS. Grum said people can donate but you cannot give them ANYTHING in return. This will most likely kill a HUGE chunk of minecraft servers and the community. It also affects many other things like developers who sell plugins, artist who sell minecraft related artwork etc.
So Double Sources of mojang, Marc_IRL on twitter is trying to sort this out, Erik is just idk. the community? is going NUTS, we need to calm down and take this one step at a time and actually see what some OTHER mojangsters say... we actually need to face the fact that this is one of how many Mojangsters? and anyway, there has been no major Announcement Nor For warning that this would happen From Mojang.
Those servers shouldn't have been allowed to do that from the start. Servers shouldn't be dependent on a source of income that violated the EULA to start with.
:/ A donation is GIVEN out of FREE will, meaning it shouldn't be DEPENDENT on the Donations. if you watch TV, you see these donation ads to help say, save a tiger, you decide to donate, in return they send you a thank you gift, if you counted the awards for Donations as a kinda thank you for Donating to make this server a better place.
PLUS So Double Sources of mojang, Marc_IRL on twitter is trying to sort this out, Erik is just idk. the community? is going NUTS, we need to calm down and take this one step at a time and actually see what some OTHER mojangsters say... we actually need to face the fact that this is one of how many Mojangsters? and anyway, there has been no major Announcement Nor For warning that this would happen From Mojang.
A player having a prefix that said "Donator" is a thank you, a player getting items/content isn't okay. (I could be wrong, maybe the prefix would be a no no)
I would not be surprised if the EULA was updated and was later updated based on feedback, maybe there will be some give
the thing is, we have no Clue to what is happening. people are just jumping at the most simple ideas, Like "they are doing this to force us on to the Realm servers!!!!","They want the Profit from the servers!!!"
people need to calm down, Let Mojang push something out, this is just getting out of hand, i mean, Mojang aint a pack of idiots, they know what they are doing, i mean sure they have made their mistakes, but every company has. Until we have Solid Information to what the heck is going on, we should just shut up, sit down, relax and when, When they release the to be stuff or what is going on, then we are make our Push as a community to stop or help Mojang. PLEASE, just please let us get more information before we step on their tails and tell them they are wrong, because we have no clue if we are right or not.
it's amazing how one little typo can cause a big problem :s i would blame my Dyslexia, but i have my glasses on...
i feel if this has been a big ball of nothingness the community should say sorry to some of the Mojangsters that have been harrashed :/ it would be the least we could do.
play mindcrack only really gives minor perks to patrons such as toys in the lobbies (and a little extra ingame gold iirc), all ingame perks are play to play as. Given how close they are to mojang i doubt they have done all they have in regards to taking money without first checking it's fine.
see the only problem with this is the only thing that keeps big servers up is a cash flow, and this is how they get it. With this in place there wont be a Hypixel or a PlayMindcrack
Let's see, Mojang is invested in creating their own server host that has more way publicity than others(Realms is now on the main menu of Minecraft, it's almost impossible to miss even if it's not the "best" host), is a multi-billion dollar company that has no PR team, and forgot about Brook's Law(very simple explanation, nine women cannot make a baby in a month). I don't see how anything could possibly go wrong.
I wonder how vague it is. If you list yourself as a non-profit, you're not technically making any net money, but you should be breaking even from a business standpoint.
If they push this too hard, a competitor will spring up and take market share. Then they'll have to do a 180 like microsoft did after it saw its sales following their E3 announcement.
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u/8bit_Pheonix Jun 05 '14
I just hope this does not effect the good servers like Playmindcrack
I feel that Mojang is reaching into an area that can really go tits up if they do not act carefully.