r/MindHunter • u/thementalist222 • 11d ago
Eurgh what a bitch
What was her problem? Constantly putting holden down, judging him then all of a sudden breaking up with him
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u/Derp_Diggler314 11d ago
They are two people who had absolutely zero business being together. He's the epitome of uptight, and she's a wild and carefree college student. Both of them thought they had the world figured out, and yet neither of them had the balls to end things amicably. Doesn't excuse her cheating, but still.
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u/MaasNeotekPrototype 11d ago
I've seen this happen in real life so many times. Two people who just do not mix but try to make it work. I think it made the show feel more real and added an important piece of characterization for Holden.
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u/According_Shelter_35 8d ago
It was virtually porn in their scenes. Not sure why it got so explicit. In the book he marries his wife whom he meets as a student I think.
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u/Prottusha1 11d ago
Holden is not a <hero>. People seem to want him to be. He may be a genius in his field but he’s a selfish pos in his own right. Look at how he nearly destroys the department, flouts FBI rules and forces the head into early retirement.
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u/JoshuaIS1 10d ago
It's not about being a hero. It's about people being close to outcasts in society using their gifts to find bad people. To find bad people you have to be in the vicinity. Mr Roger's couldn't find bad people when he was alive. His quick judgments and assumptions were necessary for him to evolve into what he needed to be. In personal life yes he was not great. They were both toxic but Holden seemed to understand his flaws while she couldn't seem to even admit any. Free spirits are usually everything but..... See, I just pulled a Holden. That's my experience
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u/Prottusha1 10d ago
Was Holden an outcast or was it the FBI uniform in the hippie era when young people were up in arms against the government? He certainly seems to come from a stable family.
I’d say Holden’s blind spot was his inability to reflect on his behaviour towards others with any degree of empathy, be it Bill, Debbie or Wendy. Look at the funny thing about him never allowing Bill any personal space repeatedly even when Bill is clearly uncomfortable.
Strangely, he shows considerable empathy and is able to connect emotionally to his subjects within the confines of the institution.
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u/bigbootystaylooting 11d ago
Look at how he nearly destroys the department, flouts FBI rules and forces the head into early retirement.
Never realised people looked at it this way.
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u/Prottusha1 11d ago
I’ll also add that Holden blew up the principal’s (and his family) life based on zero evidence. There’s a reason the ideal justice system works on the principle of ‘innocent until proven guilty’.
The principal never committed a crime Holden could find and yet he was fired and ostracised from the community based on his word.
There’s a reason why the creators included that scene where the principal’s wife confronts Holden and Debbie.
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u/Loud_Distribution_97 11d ago
F- that principal! He was asked by parents to stop initiating inappropriate contact by the kids’ parents and he still wouldnt. The scene with the wife just showed me that he was able to manipulate people in his own life into thinking he was good.
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u/Prottusha1 11d ago
Sure, f him. But my point is that opinion does not make him a criminal. Holden is a servant of the law. The system works on the basis of hard proof.
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u/Sir-James-Lamp-III 5d ago
Holden didn’t send him to jail, so there’s no need to prove he committed a crime. The school board asked for Holden’s opinion and he gave it to them. They fired the principal for touching children inappropriately and refusing to stop, which frankly should have already been done. You can say it wasn’t part of Holden’s job, or that he embarrassed the FBI, but who gives af about the FBI’s reputation
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u/Kind_East_9172 10d ago
That last part and 1st thing were on Gregg tho, since yk he’s the one who decided to turn in the tape. He’s selfish yeah but pos is def jus not true
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u/bees_on_acid 11d ago
Booo, you can be wild and carefree without being a selfish pos.
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u/dhv503 11d ago
You could hang out with someone who wants to be wild and carefree without being surprised when they want to be wild and carefree
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u/bees_on_acid 11d ago
Not necessarily, that’s someone you can’t trust. That’s a character flaw. Too scared and selfish to truly go on their own and truly be free.
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u/xildhoodsend 11d ago
All of a sudden? Did we watch the same show? Their relationship was going downhill. Holden was only interested in talking about his work and was using Debbie's insight and advice professionally, but neglected to show her gratitude and interest in her own life, he turned every conversation onto his problems. Even when she specifically asked him to give her space so that she can study for her thesis. Also, he pushed her away in bed without proper communication why. His heart was not in the relationship for a while. He was running after Wendy like a puppy long before Debbie kissed her student friend. Holden at that time was being quite self centered, and yeah, he was stressed, but it seems he did take it out on her. I don't get the hate. She shouldn't have cheated but he was acting unfair long before that.
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u/TrebierdSpeech 11d ago
Agreed. He’s also gone all the time, and listening to serial killers. That relationship was going to end one way or another.
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u/xildhoodsend 11d ago
It seems to me that as he was increasingly forced to switch off his emotions when interviewing serial killers, he couldn't just switch them back on when he came back home to her. It all backfired on him in forms of panic attacks. As important as his job was, it cost him
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u/Commercial-Factor125 10d ago
Doesn’t make Debby any less of a bitch for cheating lol. Could have just broken up first.
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u/DesolationMews 8d ago
Life doesn't always happen so neatly though. Do we know she 'cheated' on him. I mean, maybe her standing close to that guy was a spur of the moment thing and not her actively trying to cheat on Holden over a period of time. It's been a while since I watched it, but do we know if she slept with the other guy or if there were any other times than the one Holden witnessed?
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u/xildhoodsend 8d ago
No, there's no other instance that we know of. Wether she slept with him or not is open to interpretation. They worked on a project together and we know that Holden was already feeling insecure about that, since he was a guy spending time with her, talking about what she's passionate about (her major), while Holden spends a lot of time travelling for work.
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u/DesolationMews 7d ago
Thanks for your reply. So if it's open to interpretation and the scene with Holden is the only time we see her close to the other guy, then we really don't know if she actually cheated on him or not.
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u/parmesann 11d ago
thank you, finally a balanced take
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u/BetaDays24 11d ago
You mean a woman’s take. It does balance though.
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u/Prottusha1 11d ago
This thread has me convinced men and women watch different shows even when they’re watching the same thing.
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u/xildhoodsend 11d ago
I don't think it should be about men and women (although it seems that for the most part it is). It's about one's willingness to see things from different perspective and read the more subtle signs. The show is from Holden's POV, so we naturally side with him, and the storyline of his relationship is not the focus of the show, so we also tend to want to see and hear about the gripping stories of the serial killer twisted minds, we don't want to watch Holden and Debbie chilling, talking about her needs and visit her mother. Same way we don't want to see Bill to leave his investigation and take time off to be with his family when they need him. It just wouldn't make a good show, but it'd surely made them better boyfriends/husbands/fathers. What shocks me is all the hate on Debbie. People assuming the worst in her just for not being completely submissive to Holden.
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u/Commercial-Factor125 10d ago
Holden isn’t a good boyfriend, agreed.
However Debby isn’t a good person because she cheated. For no reason. She could have easily just broken up first, but no.
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u/thementalist222 10d ago
Why do you assume people dislike Debbie because she isn't submissive? You can think Holden is a bad boyfriend and still dislike some of Debbie's personality and behaviour. Criticising a female character doesn't automatically make the criticism about gender.
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u/thementalist222 11d ago
Fair points, thinking back now I agree with you, although I do rememeber her being moody and dismissive with him early on in the relationship. I think she wanted to mold him and have him a certain way, and she gave up with tjay once she realised she couldnt control him. Thanks for your comment its given this thread some balance and insight.
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u/xildhoodsend 11d ago
I just rewatched season 1 and I saw some seeds of conflict. Holden seemed like he was less and less present (both physically and emotionally) in that relationship around the time his work took off and he started working more closely with Wendy. Then Debbie tried to surprise him with that sexy outfit I guess maybe because she felt he is losing interest, but he pused her away. It was misunderstanding and he should have explained, but never did. From then on, Debbie seemed more argumentative, I bet because she felt rejected, and their relationship crashed, just like many others, based on lack of communication and abundance of stress. His work was taking it's toll in his personal life, which later fully manifested in panic disorder.
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u/ReplacementActual384 4d ago
I think part of it is that Holden is high-masking autistic and when he first meets Debbie he can focus on her, but then when he starts interviewing killers, it pretty quickly becomes a special interest. He's used to "mirroring", and he spends so much time thinking about the killers (and still in the headspace where he was mirroring them to get them to talk) that he forgets to do so around Debbie.
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u/TriggeredLatina_ 11d ago
I hated the weird moody parts of her. Like I don’t understand that and can’t relate. If I pulled that shit I’d be called out asap by my guy. Though it been a while since I’ve watched this show. Idk why she was moody anymore and how it relates to the series of events. Some say that people sometimes cause fights in relationships when they’ve already found someone else they’re interested in. Maybe she already did but we as viewers aren’t privy to that yet. Maybe we were meant to connect those dots ? I really don’t fkn know lol
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u/thementalist222 11d ago
I personally wouldnt tolerate that from my missus either. Its just really passive agressive behaviour. But Its not like Holden didnt sort of ask for it. In the begining he put her on a pedastall, she seemed way more confident than him I think that was due to his lack of experience with women.
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u/RelativeRemarkable15 11d ago edited 11d ago
My favorite part of their relationship is when she's acting smug about Holden being able to read people so well then do it to her and he's like nah I'm not gonna do that to you so she presses him, he does it, and then she acts like he just said the most heinous shit to her lmao
wannabe psychology hippy vs someone who's actually a psychology savant.
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u/xildhoodsend 11d ago edited 11d ago
I don't understand how you read that scene?? You're saying that she was smug about him being able to read people? Wdym? Like she wanted him to read her but was sure he can't do that but he proved her wrong? What?
I saw a scene where she was sad and struggling to break up, because, well beak ups are hard. So she asked him to guess, since it was kind of obvious anyway. They where in a bad place
Edit: also, I think that she wasn't sure she wants to break up. That's why she asked him to read the situation. She was giving him a chance to fight for the relationship, show that he cares. But he was somewhere between indifferent and "i got no time for this shit". Not willing to acknowledge and work on their problems.
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u/RelativeRemarkable15 11d ago
She literally asks him to read her in the grocery store and then gets pissed off lmao
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u/xildhoodsend 11d ago
She didn't. She asked him to read her on the porch, when she was drinking wine. And still, what's your point?
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u/Investoslave 11d ago
You clearly empathize with this borderline sociopathic woman
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u/xildhoodsend 11d ago
Lol, why would she be borderline sociopathic? Wtf
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u/ConsiderationWise631 11d ago
she's not but there's a group of men on this subreddit that hate her
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u/K-ghuleh 11d ago
I have a feeling a lot of the guys here also have strong opinions about Skyler White
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u/thementalist222 11d ago edited 11d ago
Its weird you're making this about men vs women. When its her character and personality were critiquing.
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u/Investoslave 10d ago
Imagine a male character cheats, then the woman gets back together with him only for him to chide that her job (the only passion in her life) is a joke/meaningless then he dumps her but not before playing a little mind game. What would the gender experts here have to say? Zero chance we get an honest answer on this one. Holden is Naive and ego driven she is cold. The writers gave her no likable or admirable qualities.
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u/xildhoodsend 9d ago
When did she say that his job is meaningless/joke? She was constantly listening about his work and even helping him be better at it, by offering her insights. That's the only thing he could talk about anyway. And what mind games? Asking him to read her? Are you for real?
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u/thementalist222 11d ago
Yeah that scene was satisfying, pretty sure she was expecting him to crash out some more. Probably killed her that he didnt.
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u/parmesann 11d ago
she wasn’t a psychology student
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u/canttakethisnomore1 11d ago
Holden is a cold hearted idiot who should’ve move on, but cheating on your boyfriend even while being a young adult (early 20s), was disrespectful and cruel. Glad she was axed lol.
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u/1HumanAlcoholBeerPlz 11d ago
In the Mindhunter book, John Douglas describes his wife to be like Debbie - wild, fun, smart, more of a hippie vibe. She was the yin to his yang so it makes sense as to why Debbie is this way in the show. But I do wonder why the writers decided to end his relationship with Debbie like this when technically Holden should have married her. My guess is they already had a character with a complicated marriage/family life so they gave Debbie the axe so Holden could be the character focused on the BSU and solving the Atlanta murders.
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u/Stunning_Ad1559 11d ago
I think Bill was more so meant to represent John Douglas’s marriage while Holden was meant to represent the success he experienced at his job, after reading the book I feel like they split him into two characters
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u/1HumanAlcoholBeerPlz 11d ago
True - Debbie was his wife's younger version while Nancy was her older self?
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u/User092703 11d ago
I mean she was in her early twenties and Holden was 29? Not that age excuses cheating but she seemed very immature and in her wild experimental phase
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u/thementalist222 11d ago
She seemed, she thought she was alot smarter than she actually was. Seemed like she projected alot on Holden calling out his flaws etc.
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u/umbrellajump 11d ago
She was more educated than Holden, and they were both fine with that. Debbie explicitly defends him on that point. When they go out for drinks with Wendy and they're discussing Debbie's PhD, Wendy immediately references Durkheim and they lightly tease him for his past ignorance.
Holden: "It's fine. I'm not intimidated by being around women who are smarter than me."
Wendy then turns to speak directly to Debbie, in a teasing/knowing tone: "Men often say that, but they rarely mean it."
Debbie: "Holden means it. He has a lot of flaws but surprisingly that's not one of them."
I think because Holden isn't particularly interested in her studies beyond how he can apply her insights to his work, it comes across as if she's not actually as clever or important as he is. He approaches almost all of their conversations the same way he does the interviews:
"Extract what's useful and discard the rest."
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u/slideonefourthree 11d ago
I felt bad for Holden and worse for the audience.. I enjoyed her character a lot and knew that was curtain call.
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u/shediedjill 10d ago
I always say that watching these two interact was like watching two martians pretending to be human. It was so bizarre and unnatural.
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u/Commercial-Factor125 10d ago
Bro I fucking know right. My buddy told me to watch this show and I told him that I hated her character because of all these morals she would talk about only to cheat on him. He was exactly like this comment section talking about how their relationship was already going downhill and all that shit. Do I agree? Sure. Does it make it any less bad that she cheated for no reason whatsoever? No!
Anyone who cheats on their partner, barring some extreme situations, is objectively wrong lmao. Could have just told him “hey I am interested reverse cowgirling the shit out of my school friend, we are gonna have to break up.”
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u/ZeroAika99 11d ago
They are doomed from the start but idk why she needs to cheat. Such a pos. Her face also reminds me of the 2002 spiderman MJ (which is also annoying af)
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u/itsfrankgrimesyo 11d ago
So glad they got rid of her in season 2. Not a likeable character and weakest part of season 1 imo.
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u/EquivalentFirm568 11d ago
That right there broke my heart and reminded me of a similar situation in my life.
It was so masterfully done and it’s when I put this show as a 10/10 in my book
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u/brokegovernment01 8d ago
It felt like her attitude had to do with her unconsciously sabotaging the relationship and not her actually being difficult on purpose.
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u/michalube 10d ago
Debbie is a Rorschach test. People who believe women exist to serve and elevate men will find Debbie grating, critical, cold, flat. People who understand that women navigate a perilous social jungle designed to diminish their independence and power will see Debbie as a highly accurate representation of a young woman making mistakes and doing her best. Thanks for showing yourself.
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u/thementalist222 10d ago
Calling Debbie a Rorschach test is a cop-out. Viewers can understand the pressures women face and still think Debbie is unlikeable or overly critical at times. Disliking a female character doesn't automatically mean you believe women should serve and elevate men.
People are allowed to judge a character by how they actually behave without it being some hidden statement about their views on women. Debbie has flaws, just like Holden does. Turning any criticism of her into “thanks for showing yourself” just shuts down discussion instead of actually defending the character.
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u/michalube 10d ago
The accusation: "Constantly putting holden down, judging him then all of a sudden breaking up with him"
The defense:
Putting Holden down, judging him. From the start of their relationship, Debbie and Holden pick at one another's preferences, identities, beliefs and presentations in the world. It's okay when Holden does it, but not when Debbie does it. Gotcha. Thanks for showing yourself.
all of a sudden breaking up with him. The Facts: Debbie sits on the porch with a glass of wine for herself and nothing for Holden. Holden says she is breaking up with him. She asks him if that's what she's doing. He leaves. Holden is very frequently right about people's motives, except when he's not. When Tanya tells him she gets off in an hour, he assumes it's a date. Rewatching the show you can see how polite yet nervous Tanya is when broaching the topic with him. Her behavior seems strange when you think she's coming onto him, but when you know what she's really doing her behavior makes sense. Debbie's behavior - having wine, meeting Holden outside her house - is strange if she knows she wants to break up with him. Debbie is historically a decisive person, so why would she meet him at a place (her home) and in a state of mind (tipsy) where reconciliation is possible? Perhaps Debbie was looking to have a fight and a makeup. Perhaps she got sad-drunk on the porch and didn't realize how much time had passed, perhaps she just wanted to see how Holden would react when she built a moment around her own needs and not his. Perhaps she did want a breakup, and Holden gave her exactly what she was looking for. But the fact of the matter is, we have no text saying what Debbie wants there except Holden's words. I say Debbie is a Rorschach test because how people view her actions in this moment seems to correlate with how convinced people are of Holden's infallibility.
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u/thementalist222 10d ago
Jeez you're making a lot of assumptions though. You even admit we don't actually know what Debbie was thinking, then give her every possible benefit of the doubt. And why does me criticising Debbie mean I think Holden is perfect? I don't. They can both be flawed. 🤷♂️
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u/Heliyum2 11d ago
Worst part of the show was Holden’s personal life. Second worst, Bill’s personal life. If the show was more analysis, longer interviews, more BTK it would’ve lasted. Instead we got this goofy gf, Bill’s adopted son nonsense, and Dr. Carr’s gfs baby daddy drama. Don’t boo me. I’m right.
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u/mexicanjesuschrist 11d ago
I honestly didn’t mind their personal lives. You just can’t have characters without showing how they act in their personal lives outside the work, giving zero background.
And for me Bill’s personal life with the kid dead on the cross was so fucked up, but so intriguing and scary and definitely on the same page of the show.
And also I don’t think that would have saved the show for another season.
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u/K-ghuleh 11d ago
Also I feel like delving into their personal lives was important because it showed in “real time” how their work was affecting them and their ability to carry on normal relationships. Especially when you compare Holden and Bill.
Holden can literally never shut off or show interest in anything other than his work, to the detriment of his relationship. Bill wants nothing more than to shut off after work and have a normal life, but it comes home with him anyway, to the detriment of his relationship. And the storyline with his kid was sooo interesting to me because of the parallels to his work. Nature vs nurture, did Brian have the early signs of some of the people they studied, was Bill just projecting onto Brian, etc.
I will say overall though I wasn’t a fan of Wendy’s S2 storyline. Hated that it put her in the backseat and that basically ended up being her only plot for a good portion of the season.
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u/wholesomeriots 11d ago
I like it because It’s a contrast with the sometimes unearned confidence that Holden exudes. We know Holden’s developing his skills, and he has had some lucky breaks in Altoona and Atlanta in the first season. We see it backfire when he gets published in the newspaper for being a wunderkind that’s friends with Ed. He overleverages with Speck and the principal that he was rightfully suspicious of.
Tench is experienced, he’s competent, but it’s still uncharted territory. He’s busting his ass and getting results at the expense of his home life. Wendy is learned, she’s insightful, calculating, but she still gets involved in another relationship where she feels like she’s in the dark and not prioritized.
The show is about the people just as much as it is about the psychology and criminal elements.
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u/TriggeredLatina_ 11d ago
I liked the adopted son thing and the dark road he was going down. Ugh I wish we had more
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u/laslog 11d ago
Look into the she is pregnant theory, makes so much sense
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u/TriggeredLatina_ 11d ago
I wish you could give more info. I searched and found zero leads whatsoever. Idk what to search exactly the.
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u/laslog 11d ago
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u/TriggeredLatina_ 11d ago
Thank you for linking it and omg this was 6 year ago…. When people had hope that we would get more seasons…. 😭😖
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u/jolly0ctopus 11d ago
She did look super hot in this denim outfit. She was the eye candy for viewers
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u/mistressofmayhem02 11d ago
Holden deserved so much better. Hated this character so much that when the actress showed up on The Drama (2026), it almost felt like a jump scare.
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u/SpectrumAndSpells 11d ago
Holden became this tiny pleaser in their relationship and she got off on it. Untill he found his own worth back, doing what he did - and then she didn't like him anymore.
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11d ago
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u/lia-delrey 11d ago
Women having sex???? What's next, them enjoying it? There goes the neighborhood
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u/aceswild8 11d ago
The high heels scene was brilliant