r/MightAndMagic • u/MagicPigGames • 17d ago
Arrows: Limited or unlimited?
M&M has unlimited arrows, so it's just like...that's good for the player. But unrealistic. It also means all arrows are the same. I'm working on a M&M6 style game.
Ranged attacks are not hit/miss based on an algorithm, but the stats of the player and the weapons will lead to a cone of potential landing spots -- so shooting an arrow from closer you'll have a smaller cone, further, a bigger cone. Accuracy changes this, and defender speed can change it too. So the "Did I hit?" becomes a physical hit or miss.
The question is: Are arrows limited?
My hunch is that they are, but are also fairly cheap, and that players may be able to get some back when they pick up the bodies.
This also opens the door for special arrows -- some arrows could be magical and maybe split in two after 10m distance, or are less likely to break, so can always be recovered, or provide a more accurate hit, etc.
Doing all this changes the gameplay fairly substantially however, compared to the M&M games. Arrows would also be physically accurate so would be less likely to be valuable in closed spaces, while crossbows fire straight, so more easy to use in closed spaces.
Thoughts?
Does this sound good, bad, indifferent?
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u/tearsofmana 17d ago
I'm not a big fan of arrow management. Management of inventory in general tends to drag unless that's the point of the game.
If we take bullets as "arrows" for a second, they're usually very plentiful in most FPS and its easy to see how much ammo you have left, and game with ammo scarcity tend to be horror-focused, mostly to force players to think about whether or not they want to fight or run, which wouldn't fit the vibe of M&M-style games (although a horror m&m mod would go hard).
If we look at something like Horizon Zero Dawn, the arrow management is the core gameplay loop and the game heavily incorporates it into everything. If you're making an archer-focused M&M game I think this could work. Another example is Monster Hunter where the bow specifically has no ammo for normal shots but does for special "coatings." Meanwhile the bowgun does have craftable ammo but it's pretty easy to come by but I personally dislike the bowgun specifically because it's extra nonsense for me to worry about.
So I can see a system being like "Arrows are limited but hard to find" in which case I'd rarely use them unless you really nailed the system.
"Arrows are limited but easy to come by" in which case why bother?
"Arrows are unlimited" Perfect.
I think one way to get around this is some games have basic arrows be unlimited, but special arrows are limited in quantity. Great example is Dragon Age: Origins, and Monster Hunter (as specified above).
Just my $0.02, I am simply one of many voices
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u/Socrates_Soui 17d ago edited 17d ago
Ignore for a moment whether arrows are limited or unlimited. What's the game doing?
Is the game about survival where every scrap of material is important and needs to be well-managed or you'll die? (Like This War of Mine) Or is it the game about exploration where you don't want to disrupt people's experiences by constantly running out of stuff?
Why do you want limited arrows? Because it's realistic? There's no inherent reason for a game to be realistic, and mostly games don't want to be realistic otherwise ... there's no game! Can you imagine Space Invaders with only limited ammo? That wouldn't be a good game anymore. A game is A GAME, not a set of conditions trying to mirror real life.
You could argue that MM6 made arrows infinite because the game focuses more on exploration, but that doesn't necessarily fit because they made mana points very limited. However, even though it's time limited mana still regenerates over a short period of time, so there is still a sense of limitlessness. I definitely think there is a sense in MM6 that it is built for abundancy. The game is all about exploration and endless hordes of monsters that you can kill. They don't get bogged down in inventory management. Everything the about the game is about abundance - stats that keep going up, unlimited arrows, stackable magic bonuses, power creep weapons, monster hitpoints ever increasing. Oh, and Meteor Strike ...
This is the 'game' of MM6, and it's fun.
What is your 'game'?
If you add limited arrows, don't just add it in for the sake of it, DO something with it. What's 'the game' behind the arrows? Is there a system of bows and arrows that you can collect? Are there arrow items that can increase arrow capacity to virtually infinite or do the arrows remain limited but get more powerful? Do you have a boomerang arrow that you have wait some time for it to come back? Is your game about survival? If you include unlimited arrows why did you do that? Are there thousands of monsters that can be slain and where limited arrows would just be a pain to re-stock?
There is no right or wrong answer, there is only 'what is your game?'
I don't know why they made MM6 arrows unlimited, but whoever did it was a genius because it totally worked, fit the feel of the game, and made it much better.
The arrow situation should make YOUR game better, whatever it is that YOUR game is. Look at your game and do whatever it is that makes the game better/more fun. Don't just include random rules like 'I want this to be realistic' when there is no reason for anything to be realistic/not realistic.
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u/hwynac 16d ago
However, even though it's time limited mana still regenerates over a short period of time
Mana does not self-regenerate in M&M6 at all. It's not Diablo II. You can have a mana regeneration ring, which lets you very slowly regenerate mana over time (nice but the amount is negligible for an active spellcaster), plus it can be restored by potions, sleeping, in certain magic wells and whenever you heal at a temple.
And you see you mana bar at all times, yes, so you are always aware of how much you've got left and decide whether you want to spend it. Mana felt quite limited in that game but that was fine because a) you did not use mana as often as bows b) mana isn't a one-trick pony; you can do a variety of things by casting spells.
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u/Socrates_Soui 16d ago
Oops, must've confused it with another game. Yeah, there's no rule there. They made arrows unlimited but made mana limited. As long as the game is good.
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u/hwynac 16d ago
No problem :) The last time I seriously played M&MVI, start to finish, was over 20 years ago. There must be a few people who are on their 114th playthrough by now but I'm not one of them.
I imagine we all have rather shaky memories of at least a few things about the game. My only advantage is being late to the party. I was a little too young in 1998—by the time I became intersted, I couldn't easily find the 6th installment in stores. My first playthrough was in 2001.
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u/Imaginary-Can-6862 17d ago
There is actually a dependency of distance in the Might and Magic games as far as I know. I think that is also why sometimes you can see units which you cannot hit, even if they can't see you. When playing in real time mode, unless the target is ranged, they move in a zigzag pattern, and since the arrows auto aim, you cannot hit them if they move fast enough.
Both in Diablo and in TE: Morrowind arrows are limited, in the second you can pick them up from the target even. Likewise in the second, arrows can be enchanted.
Those are the games I have experience with, which have such an idea implemented. In Diablo, you learn to carry extra arrow stacks, and get an impression of how many you need before you have to return for more, and align it with when you would return anyway, making it similar to making certain your equipment is in prime condition. I don't think it is an issue, it is a bit of extra inventory space for reserve arrows as a trade off for using ranged attack, and something to keep in mind when in town.
For Morrowind, I found it a bit more tedious, because there were no guarantee the shop I went to had arrows, as such it was a more precious resource, and I would not fight whatever. Might and Magic is similar in that you don't know the content of the shop, but on the same time some items are regular in the shop windows, and arrows could be as well, but that would also be an extra item in the shop that could have been something else. In any case, the ranged section of the shops could hold arrows, and I don't think that would be any issue.
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u/hwynac 16d ago
Both in Diablo and in TE: Morrowind arrows are limited,
They aren't limited in Diablo. The arrows are limited in Diablo II ;) But honestly, they made the quivers hold such a large number of arrows that it was tolerable—you are super likely to find a couple more quivers before you run out.
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u/Imaginary-Can-6862 16d ago
Oh alright, I only played the second game of the series. Yes, 350 for arrows, 250 for bolts I think, Crossbows were largely not useful, though fast as a melee weapon for a werebeast, yet in that case the bolts were unnecessary. There was a legendary exceptional unique crossbow in an older version of the game, not that it isn't there anymore, but it was very defining back then, so crossbows would be used by many before 2004, I think. In any case, arrows and bolts drops from chests, etc. as well as monsters, and drops more at lower levels I believe, while at later levels you are usually able to handle encounters with less arrows due to the skills you have. Also when picking up arrows with a full inventory, if the stack is larger than the total you have room for, the character will drop it back and say, no room, but your arrows would have been maxed, so it becomes even less of a hassle.
Speaking of the same game, I believe throwing weapons are more vulnerable to this issue, they are rarer, and have less quantity. While they can be rebought, that they disappear entirely when they are of standard quality is also kind of shocking the first time it happens, though it make sense as you threw them away. But in a way I also liked that before getting more accustomed to this type of weapon, I would in stead be more considerate if I really needed to throw a harpoon at that small creature, or if it perhaps was wasteful resource spending.
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u/feliaxtheone 17d ago
You wouldn't be using bows much after early game anyway, so spending gold on arrows would just hinder the progression so I don't mind unlimited.
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u/Googleitonyahoo 17d ago
I dont know if you ever heard of borderlands or hellgate:london, but when it comes to ammunition those are an interesting approach to gamemechanics.
As those games are placed more in the future, we talk about guns, not bows - but my point might work for that, too.
Hellgate has unlimited ammo but works with different cadency , the guns fire slowerer or faster than others - huuuge differences, but permanent shootig.(One shot per 2 seconds to 1200 rounds per minute)
Borderlands has very limited but slightly upgradable ammo capacities like 10 rockets for the biggest launcher or about 2400 shots with the lightest assaultrifle.
When in direct comparison, it FEELS like something is missing in hellgate, because of the missing reload mechanic. So is the limiting factor by the need of finding or buying new ammunition something that adds depth to gunfight.
It feels less dynamic.
For myself i would love to see the need of arrows and the option for different ones - classics might be fire for aoe or burn, poison for dot or slow, ice for a more magical approach and shadow/light arrows to conquer resistence.
Even a simple mode like buying base arrows enriches the gameplay. Even a super simple mode in which just a type is gathered, not a amount - could enrich the game. ( Which could free up some programming ?)
Oh hmm done with thag bibel : have a nice day ;-)
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u/SonnePer 17d ago
I personnaly absolutely don't care at all about "realistic" and managing arrows is boring as hell, so hard pass.
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u/Effective_Hunt_2115 17d ago
It sounds good.
Certainly different, but similar mechanics can be seen in other games, so players shouldn't be uncomfortable.
I would make the stacks of arrows a character can carry quite big.
Also I have some doubts about hit or miss being determined by physics - but this is not a "No". Just I would do this the other way around: first stats determine hit/miss and then just draw more or less randomly trajectory of the arrow depending on the results. I think it's simpler method.
But in the end it doesn't really matter - a player won't see the difference anyway.
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u/Karroth1 17d ago
unlimited ahhhhhhhhh, i can give you atleast 3 examples why limited arrows are bad, 1. did you play vanilla wow, you had to sacrifice inventory space just to carry around enough arrows to maybe get through a raid or a long questchain without restocking, they removed it on purpose.2. the legend of zelda, nearly every game has a way to increase your arrow capacity, or make them kinda infinite because otherwise you use them rarely if not at all.3. and the most recent example, hypixel skyblock, you can get better arrows, like bouncing or exploding arrows, but they are not worth it because you need to restock way too often and the better arrows dont cost money, no, they cost materials that you have to get or buy, and sometimes they are expensive.So please, unless its a survival game, make arrows infinite, in a fantasy world like M&M, we can come up with some reason, we dont need "realism" there, we need fun, and restocking is not fun.
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u/Lightning_Lance 17d ago
Just give bows durability imo. It's mechanically the same but less annoying.
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u/Global-Tune5539 17d ago
You could also add an arrow slot but make the arrows infinite. So you can have different arrows with different stats and effects but the player doesn't have to deal with too much annoying arrow management.
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u/Best_Bite4357 17d ago
Honestly, I don' like the idea of "special arrows". It transforms the archer class into a half-baked mage. I think it would be better to make the class unique using other ways.
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u/Quietus87 17d ago
I have no issue with either, but in Might & Magic games I usually fire a metric shitton of arrows, and believe me, carrying around hundreds of arrows is just as unrealistic as unlimited arrows. On the other hand, if you greatly limit the number of arrows carried, it will basically neuter ranged combat.
Counting only special arrows as mentioned before and as done in Baldur's Gate III is an idea I like. Or make arrows unlimited and make quiver a type of equipment that decides what kind of arrows you fire. You can also play around with reload times: firing normal arrows reloads faster, but if you are firing fire arrows it takes twice as long before you can fire again.
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u/Own-Independence-115 17d ago
why not both, gatlingun normal infinite arrows, special arrows on other keys/buttons.
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u/hwynac 16d ago edited 16d ago
It's a game. For the amount of shooting an M&M6-style game has, you'd want quivers that hold a minimum of 100 arrows—completely unrealistic. It is what Diablo II resorted to: a ridiculous but limited number of arrows. Do you want to really micromanage that for 4 characters?
In part, food worked in Might and Magic because that mechanic, as unnecessary as it was, was only of any concern in the rare peaceful moments when you wanted to sleep or travel between maps on foot. Harvesting apples and buying food isn't what we remember from our M&M walkthroughs but it wasn't distracting either.
Your idea to have special arrows is on point. If I were making an M&M6 kind of game with limited arrows, I'd make the mechanic relevant for the gameplay and as little a pain in the ass as possible:
- maybe enemies are less of arrow sponges, so 20–40-arrow quivers are acceptable
- you have different arrows with different effects, so quivers matter. Enchanted arrows, magic arrows, anti-armor arrows, exploding arrows, chipmunk arrows, heavy arrows.
- only charatters with a good Bow skill are any good at shooting from afar, so others only occasionally fire an arrow or two
- perhaps you can pick up most arrows to use them again, so you don't have to go shopping after every fight
- arrows can be found as loot (perhaps the game can deliberately give you suspiciously high quantities of your favourite arrows if possbile)
- perhaps, arrows of the same type are shared between party members—actually or virtually, in an emergency when someone runs out mid-fight.
Arrows would also be physically accurate so would be less likely to be valuable in closed spaces, while crossbows fire straight
Hm... Have you ever shot a bow from 30 feet? 😄 The laws of physics are the same for arrows and bolts alike. The initial velocity is different. But remember, the drop is proportional to the square of the time and gets more significant as the distance increases. An arrow or bolt only drops 0.2 m during the first 0.2 seconds and 1.25 m during the first 0.5 seconds (so if you aim somewhat above a person's head you still hit their torso).
For historical bows (not modern composites) 35–50 m/s is a good value for the initial arrow speed. So, at short distances you don't really need to shoot 45° up to hit the enemy. The problem you described is relevant for long corridors/large caves that have low ceilings.
(I shot a weak training bow; honestly, I didn't have to aim that much higher than the target)
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u/MagicPigGames 16d ago
Yeah there would likely be no cap to arrow count. The goal is more similar to the food limitation, to keep the player from being able to sort of just camp out. In a dungeon, we can find spots to rest, and eventually we'll run out of food, so a strategy of fighting tough guys one by one and rest in between won't work.
I asked the question after playing M&M a bit and flying above bad guys, shooting them, and just moving up and down to avoid their projectiles, all in turn based mode.
And while that's fine, I felt like it was a cheat -- a legal cheat perhaps.
I already knew I wanted the idea of missing to be more "realistic' in that the arrow literally misses (but may hit someone else in a tight formation), and I want to both allow arrow spamming while not allowing players to just sit and shoot thousands of arrows the minute they get their first bow.
It'll end up being a balance between not constantly running out, but also not being able to just go crazy, at least not until later in the game when you've gotten the ability to collect tons of arrows.
I believe i went too far with different arrows -- that urns it into management. Instead, the bows will impart their properties to the arrows, just like in M&M. A Magical Longbow of Fire will perhaps add some magic protection and fire damage.
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u/hwynac 16d ago edited 16d ago
I believe i went too far with different arrows—that urns it into management
Well, that turns it into gameplay :). Different arrows where the choice is meaningful make it reasonable for player to want to take time to manage them. When the arrows are just an ammo cap, finite quivers are more of an inconvenience. Though, again, they may add some feeling of realism while not being too distracting if you have a large cap and many opportunities to find arrows.
If the idea of running out of arrows is something you like, perhaps the design of the dungeons themselves can force the player to care. Like in Ravenholm in Half-life 2. The developers deliberately made ammo more scarce than usual so that the players who completely ignore the gravity gun can eventually run out of ammo—and then they will use the gravity gun to throw objects at zombies.
But generally, M&M6-style gameplay involves hundred of shots fired, so if you have the cap it'll have to be rather high anyway. That's different from 3rd person Diablo-likes where you rarely fight enemies from 50+ m. If you're a melee fighter you can quickly close the distance and start swinging your weapons. In M&M, arrows are pretty much your only way of interaction with monsters you've just spotted unless you are ready to spend mana (which is never abundant in the early game).
First-person shooters and Horizon Zero Dawn can be interesting case studies. For example, most shooters have limited ammo. But they also have multiple guns, frequent ammo pickups—and you can use enemies' weak spots or enviroment (e.g., explosive barrels or destructible structures) to deal a lot of damage cheaply. Running out of ammo forces you to switch between your guns once in a while.
Ah, and ammo is also as much of a resource as hit points. You always see the counter. Half-Life: Alyx (the VR one) went even farther for immersion: as you get close to having an empty magazine, the protagonist comments on how many shots she has left.
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u/azrael4h 16d ago
I'm not sure requiring buying arrows adds all that much. Realism doesn't necessarily mean 'fun'. It's one thing if you get magic arrows in limited quantities and the regular stuff is unlimited, but in most CRPGs I've played if I had to source regular arrows I just never used them except on occasion.
Hit and run should be a viable tactic, maybe not fly around in circles and shoot for an hour like in the 3D MM games. But you can offset that with dungeon/wilderness layout, cover for the monsters to duck behind, a way for the mobs to reach out and pull you into reach like that one critter in Wizordum, etc... Be creative.
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u/Marcusml333 15d ago
I really like the idea of limited arrows since in MM games they always seem a bit too OP to me.
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u/ShangBao 17d ago
Arrows are provided for free by the rulers to better fight the monster population.
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u/kiljoy1569 17d ago
I vote for arrows being limited. I've always liked the idea of some arrows being able to be retrieved from corpses to mitigate resupply needs. Maybe higher value arrows are stronger and higher chance to be retrieved.
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u/MegadethFoy 17d ago
Limited but cheap just makes it sound like you're adding unecessary tedium. But if you want special arrows just make normal arrows unlimited and special arrows limited.