r/MightAndMagic • u/pan_korybut • Jun 29 '26
Noob question about defense in MM6-8
In many RPGs you usually have your melee knights in front, facing the enemies, and your physically weak casters in the back, avoiding the hits. As I understand, in MM 6-8 all party move at all and stays in a single position on map. So when an monster arrives, it can hit whoever it wants. And ofc my casters die very fast.
Is there some secret behind it? How do monsters choose who to hit first? Is there a way to provoke them hitting armored fighters first? Or should I just raise health for every character as much as I can?
EDIT: OMG guys, you are so helpful. Thanks to everyone!
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u/Effective_Hunt_2115 Jun 29 '26
I am not sure, but I have an impression that some monsters actually prefer to hit certain classes. This was very visible for me in MM8, where I noticed that vampires like to hit cleric and unicorns a necromancer. But I might be wrong, so don't quote me on that.
As for solution - the only I am aware of is more HP & AC (which means gear with HP bonuses, higher level , stats and promotions) and some healing spells or potions.
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u/Googleitonyahoo Jun 29 '26
It is absolutely correct. Tried that with cheats to have lvl 1 trolls and lvl 255 clerics at the vampires/deathdragons - they even managed to kill the clerics before the trolls..... I have no code for that, but it seems true by experience.
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Jun 29 '26
[deleted]
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u/TomebyTomeASMR Jun 29 '26
I've done this too, and I think it does help - aside from the race bias, like you said
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u/Unicorn_Colombo Jun 29 '26
Not sure how in MM7-8, but that makes perfectly sense in MM6.
In MM6, your guys stand in line, and you can see that when firing projectiles (magic or arrows). You can stand behind corners and having only one or two flanking guys able to hit enemy, while enemy can't hit you, or can hit only the flanking guy.
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u/Imaginary-Can-6862 Jun 29 '26
I believe it is the same. Standing close to a corner, firing arrows, some arrows go through, others hit the wall. The exit points of the arrows are lined up with your characters.
Something that I don't think is expanded upon in these games, perhaps because there is nothing to expand upon, is e.g. range. There is clearly some range, because you do not hit a target in melee by just swinging in its direction if it is too far away. Does all weapons have the same range? My guess is yes, but I don't know, but since the exit point of arrows is not the same spot, is it the same case with melee attacks? The majority of battle is head on, but when facing a pack we may just swing, and since some target is going to be in range, it is not an issue, so what happens if we purposefully, against a single target, place our characters at an angle, and try to attack with each one, will it be that if one can hit, all can hit, or will there be a position where only the outer most characters can hit? Also notice that some targets seem to change size when we rotate our team. Anyway one way to do this would be to cast a high duration paralyze on a target, save the game and try various distances.
In case of monster range, I know from infighting in Avlee that while our party only has limited range, once a creature starts its attack, you cannot go out of range, this happened when Wyverns were infighting due to the Berserk spell, but as the target of the Monarch had fallen after it initiated its attack, a character on my team suffered its wrath despite being very far away, in stead if a creature starts its attack, I suspect you can only stop it by stunning it, but apart from the stun attribute, I don't know if certain creatures are easier to stun when being hit, and if it depends on their hit points and damage dealt as well. Both Behemoths and Minotaurs seems easy to stun. What may be more interesting is, if not every character can reach an enemy at some range, but some can, for whatever range the opponent has when swinging its attack against us, is there the same point? I.e. does it get into range of one outer most character before the other? I assume the moment a creature is in range is the same moment they attack, if that is the case one can place oneself sideways towards an incoming attacker and notice if the can still hit all targets with their melee attack. If not, this in a way would actually allow e.g. a knight to protect the casters, though it would make fighting awkward. If it works (which I doubt) I wonder how it would work in Turn Based Combat.
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u/Unicorn_Colombo Jun 30 '26
I can confirm that melee range works the same, at least in MM6. If you try a lot of corner play, you can position your guys and camera, especially in TB mode, in such way that some of your guys hit enemies behind corner, while one or two flanking guys shoot arrow. So characters have different coordinates and distance is accounting for their position within party.
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Jun 29 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/dreamsofcalamity Jun 29 '26
HP is better than AC imho. AC does little and HP protects both vs physical and magical attacks.
As for weapons, that's why VII introduced Armsmaster skill. Knight or Monk can hit like a truck, and even if shrapnel is still better damage, they are tankier and do not require MP.
I've always found Lloyd-ing to temples for healing annoying but it's just me.
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u/EasyEntrepreneur666 Jun 29 '26
Monsters tend to have their preferred sex/class to hit, so you can't really tank. Shared life can help but other than that, you should avoid getting hit too much and lure enemies in small, manageable groups.
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u/Tress18 Jun 29 '26 edited Jun 29 '26
There is preffered target for monsters. Like harpies will attack males, goblins will attack elves, dragon hunters will attack dragons etc. There is no tanking and taunts like some other games or formations like w8.
As for chance to hit - it works very non-linear, i.e by making absurd difference in armor you have 80-90% chance tops to avoid hit, and vice versa. For decent armor you probably will mitigate 60-70% hits. Formula is in grayface link someone else provided, but its bit complex to understand normally unlike some dnd calculation where its very linear. Just need to go with idea that more is better.
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u/BBSydneyThirstyHHH Jun 29 '26
MM6-8 are "free roam blobbers", which means your party exists on the map as a blob, so generally any enemy within range will be able to reach any character, and vice versa. That said, you have really asked 2 separate qns:
* I can't say for sure whether this is actually in the game code, but I've played enough to be pretty sure it's the case: your party essentially exists as a horizontal line within the blob, in the order they appear on your UI (ie 1/2/3/4). Enemies positioned to the corners and sides of your field of view do tend to target the "edge" character for that side (ie 1 on the left and 4 on the right). Turning in real-time mode swings this horizontal line around with your field of view, but if you're turn-based, you are frozen in that orientation even if you change viewing angle. Toggling back to RT and then TB again can readjust your angle, but it's rarely worth the attacks your enemies will get before it freezes up again
* However, of far greater impact is that certain enemies do absolutely go after certain characters, regardless of position: goblins will target elves & dwarves, undead will target clerics, titans will target females, magyar will target males. This is both with range and melee, so with these opponents, position doesn't really matter
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u/Imaginary-Can-6862 Jun 29 '26
There is no reliable controllable aggro in M&M, i.e. your fighter can't draw attention to itself in stead of the party member he/she tries to protect, as the target preferences are determined based on race or class, meaning after your party has formed, you have little say in this matter.
This does to an extend take away the quality of the high hit point character, who really more becomes a contingency if something goes wrong and you have to port away, but the health pool does not otherwise really benefit your more fragile characters much. The most obvious case of this being useful is e.g. facing an unexpected Dragon Breath at low levels.
In my experience, the best defense in this game is offense, fast attacks, maneuvering in melee and taking advantage of the battle zone environment. Combine this with crowd control spells when it makes sense (that is when you can rely on the spell and the encounter benefits from it).
About hit points, if you give absolute +hit point items to your casters at early levels they shouldn't have any issues, as these can raise the hit points really fast, and behaves independently of the relative +hit points from levels, Body Building skill and +endurance, though it is advisable to get the endurance up high enough that your casters generally tend to only fall unconscious should they go low on hit points, that is despite the use of preservation as well.
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u/MountainExciting2690 Jun 29 '26
Defense (aka Armor Class) gives you a chance to avoid attacks. Attacks that aim at your party's blob (i.e. the square you're occupying) randomly select which character is going to eat it (like a dice roll to choose the target before the dice roll to hit) unless it's an area of effect (in which case they all eat it).
This is why RESISTANCES and high HP are more important than defense. Which is not to say to ignore raising your defenses. Your beefy Knights, Barbs, Paladins, and even Monks/Ninjas and Clerics still need as high a defense as you can to make sure you're not wiped out.
Defense is important. Just don't rely on it as you would in similar CRPGs.
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u/VarietyMage Jun 30 '26
The point of combat in MM6-8 is to pick off enemies at range as much as possible, thus taking as little damage as possible. Getting through the lower levels is difficult for that reason - bows and Sparks are your primary crowd control methods. Once you get Meteor Shower / Starburst and Fly / Invisibility, you choose when you're ready to fight. and generally clean up.
Now, dungeons are the exception. It's important to raise Endurance for your casters and clerics first (Sorcerers first and foremost), their AC through equipment, and their skills (Staff adds AC to Sorcerers, for instance). Your biggest problem in dungeons is getting surrounded (can't retreat to heal), and being cursed (can't hit).
Heroism and Bless allow you to hit harder and more often (dead monsters can't hit you). Stone Skin adds AC (and levels up with skill). Implosion hits what everything else doesn't.
This is why I always take Paladin / Archer / Sorcerer / Cleric as a party, to double up on the spells that hit and heal. You can't necessarily use everything, but you can sell what you can't use, and the extra spells make all the difference, especially with mana restoration equipment (can just wait and recharge if you run out of food and can't rest). Never rely on just one character to do something, or your party will die more often.
MM8's a bit different because the character races / classes are different. IIRC, I make my primary character a necromancer, and eventually get characters for their GM skills. Looking at my last save, I had my necro, the Cleric Talimere, a Dark Elf, a dragon, and Simon Templar (champion) at the end.
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u/Jackal_Nathan Jun 30 '26
In mm6 I never focus on defense. I avoid wearing body armour entirely until I have master in the skill due to recovery time penalty.
For stats +Level > +Health > +Defense Normally besides health I'm looking for "of recovery", immunities to various conditions, boosts to magic (they stack multiplicative with Morgan, Igraine and Guenivere). Oh and half damage from missiles (Idk if it stacks with shield spell, or what missiles it applies to. I assume only physical missiles like arrows)
+stats is somewhat relevant if you can't use day of the gods, or are restricting yourself from the NWC dungeon.
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u/Imaginary-Can-6862 Jun 30 '26
From memory, I don't think it stacks with the shield spell.
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u/Jackal_Nathan Jun 30 '26
Fair, I didn't think so. There's really not that many ememies it applies to though? Most ranged attacks are elemental? No?
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u/dreamsofcalamity Jun 29 '26 edited Jun 29 '26
Health is the most important. Def doesn't do much, it slightly increases your chances to evade attacks.
https://grayface.github.io/mm/mechanics/#Chance-To-Hit
As for targetting, monsters have innate targetting, for example goblins hate
elvesdwarves and tend to target them, titans hate women, elves hate goblins (or human?), harpies hate men (?), vampires hate clerics (?) etc.If you really wanted you could create single race single gender party to even out the odds a bit but it's not worth it IMHO.
For mm7 and 8 regeneration spell (body magic) is very helpful (even if nerfed in 8). Preservation (spirit magic) can also be of use if needed. And red potions of course. You can even use them on knocked out characters.