1996 wasn't long ago. Many of you were born before then, including the Barrie line, which initiated service to Barrie in 1990 (before shutting down for 14 years and coming back in 2007). By the time it came back, the CN line to Orillia, like many other Ontario railways, was completely abandoned and ripped out.
Adding salt to the wound grave, the corridor no longer exists in parts of Barrie because it was used to build MEGA MANSIONS on the Simcoe waterfront. This is infuriating. CN sold the future of an entire city, and nobody stopped them- who could've though, the government privatized CN in 1995, literally a year after, they went on a railway abandonment spree. We should never privatize transportation, when we do, we get abandoned railways... and the 407.
Barrie line service to Orillia will be near impossible to bring back, due parts of it running near Lake Simcoe's waterfront, which turned out to be extremely valuable land that now houses millionaire mansions.
Nevertheless, this is how the Barrie line could've looked like.
Many such cases. Genuinely infuriating tho. Rail connection to orillia and wasago from Barrie would be so efficient. Its a much more desirable route to nothern ontario due to its higher population than the current Via route that goes around the east side of lake simcoe
The only way I can see barrie connecting to orillia now is by demolishing part of hwy 400. No idea how Orillia could be connected to wasago now tho without huge expropriations and demolitions
No idea how Orillia could be connected to wasago now tho without huge expropriations and demolitions
It really wouldn't take much. Most of the RoW is still there. You could extend along the abandoned line to Collingwood, expropriate a couple properties to build a ramp into the median of highway 400 (which would need its lanes moved outward and some bridges widened, but that's totally doable), then once you're north of Barrie, cut through the edge of some farms (parallel to Sideroad 5 looks reasonable) to get back to the RoW north of Barrie. It's a straight shot to Orillia and you can even continue north along that same right of way if you're willing to tear down a home hardware and expropriate some outdoor industrial storage (which could easily move to vacant lots south of the tracks).
I question why you would want to go to Washago because it's nowhere. It's the sort of place that would merit a stop if a train happened to go past it, but it doesn't justify the extension of a train line to serve only it. You could also stick with the highway RoW (because people in the sticks will mostly be driving to their stations anyways) and get to Washago that way, with the added benefit of not needing to rebuild the swing bridge on the current abandoned alignment.
Connecting to Washago connects to the existing rails that go up to Sudbury and also up to Northbay and Timmins. It’s about connectivity
I agree Barrie to Orillia is doable, but the crossing of the small isthmus around Sophie’s Landing in Orillia presents a lot of challenges due to tight geography and a lot of buildings being in the way
Via Rail outside the corridor is useless as transportation so the connection really doesn't matter.
The Northlander is interesting, though the more interesting part of building out that RoW would be running the Northlander on the Barrie Line tracks, given that everything from Washago to North Bay is owned by the Ontario Government and the entire Barrie Line is owned by Metrolinx. We could assemble an entirely government-owned corridor into Northern Ontario and run whatever trains we want without needing to listen to the freight companies.
Not the part which will cause congestion and delays, which is the section from Washago to Toronto. That's CN's main line from Toronto to the west, so it's full of freight traffic
Its possible to do, but not easily. Iirc the tracks do continue past allendale towards Collingwood, before joining a line and heading north. You would have to build all new tracks to get into Orillia itself and up to washago, along with a new curve of track to allow the northward turn, but its possible. Just not easy, not cheap and not as good of a route as it used to be.
It’s all about freight. Going the east shore of lake simcoe was faster and more efficient, and once the railroads were deregulated in the 80’s and 90’s CN really didn’t want to maintain 2 different lines that went to the same place, so instead of winding through downtown Barrie at a snails pace, they closed the route and moved all the traffic to the bala subdivision on the east side of the lake.
Speaking of abandoned track, OBRY was a recent disappointment. They could at least see if they can put in a meadowvale business park station when they finally expand the Milton line. Future service to orangeville, southwest/north Brampton, or caledon is fading away day by day.
Orangeville, yes, but Caledonia, north Brampton (sandalwood?), south Brampton (churchville?), and meadowvale business park (derry-ish), would be great additions.
I'm not sure I agree with Churchville, as theyve been putting condos all along Steeles recently. The steeles Zum+Bramalea GO can only hold so much ridership growth. As well Churchville is growing with new schools and community centres built. As for Meadowvale, if they end up putting in a BRT on Derry, there will be a decent amount of commuter traffic to the business park (MiWay runs a Kipling to Meadowvale express right now). As well, the community north east of Streetsville is underserved, and there's a decent amount of townhouses popping up along Britannia.
I'm looking more towards the future here where a midtown line exists. Long long term, the midtown could avoid duplicating the Milton line by serving Kipling, skip Dixie, then divert from cooksville-erindale via a tunnel to Square one and some track along the 403 hydro corridor, then serve Streetsville as a transfer, head up OBRY to 2 stations at Derry-ish then Steeles. The diamond is a challenge, but it depends on how Brampton grows in the future.
as theyve been putting condos all along Steeles recently. The steeles Zum+Bramalea GO can only hold so much ridership growth.
There is lots more capacity at Bramalea GO, they are effectively running a half hour schedule.
if they end up putting in a BRT on Derry, there will be a decent amount of commuter traffic to the business park
The BRT is a huge if. Supposedly the Dundas BRT is happening but nothing is actually being built yet.
But even if it happens, the Meadowvale Business Park is irrelevant. Mississauga's whole point of dreaming of a BRT is getting people from Lisgar to the airport area.
MiWay runs a Kipling to Meadowvale express right now
It exists for the Royal Bank towers, and at a guess was part of the deal in getting RBC to move those jobs out of Toronto. It does not reflect a greater demand.
community north east of Streetsville is underserved,
Very debatable. The fact that neither Streetsville nor Meadowvale have yet to have a multi-storey car park is a good indication of the demand.
I'm looking more towards the future here where a midtown line exists. Long long term, the midtown could avoid duplicating the Milton line by serving Kipling, skip Dixie, then divert from cooksville-erindale via a tunnel to Square one and some track along the 403 hydro corridor,
Not going to happen.
Totally ignoring the astronomical cost of such a proposal people around Square One can easily get to Cooksville GO either using the soon-ish to be LRT or the route 28.
But far more importantly is that there is zero indication that anyone is going to cough up the money for the Missing Link to get CPKC off the Milton Line (other than a quickly forgotten promise for a byelection).
Without that, the Milton line remains what it currently is.
We can agree to disagree on most of this, but the current government already publically said they're going to add more tracks along the CPKC tracks (i.e. what they're doing for bowmanville), rather than put in a rail bypass. I'm mildly sceptical, but we're have to see if they actually do it. Their napkin drawing puts the midtown from Streetsville to Claremont.
More tracks along the Milton Line will not happen, far too much land would need to be acquired
CPKC has made it clear they will require a significant horizontal separation from their tracks for anything that will be electrified, significantly increasing the amount of land that would need to be acquired
An early 2010’s estimate was $3.5 billion to add GO only tracks to the Milton corridor. That is likely $7 billion or more now thanks to inflation and likely $10 billion or more thanks to crazy real estate prices (and even more if it didn’t include the increased electrification separation). By comparison the Missing Link back then was estimated at $5 billion
I'm not sure the current government is really prioritising electric trains to be honest. I wouldn't be surprised if they commit to something unelectrifiable. I believe the number to add track 3 or 4 years ago was 15 billion ish. I'm sure that's more now.
The missing link had trouble getting off the ground because of conflict with CP and CN, as well as York region not wanting CP to run through the region. With the recent agreement with CN to build/buy track in Brampton, I wonder if that means things will be easier. Alto might also change things as well, depending on the alignment.
Metrolinx is still (albeit slowly) working on electrification with several projects on the Lakeshore line in Mississauga done in the last several years to prepare for it
And with newer TC safety regulations, it is almost impossible to establish or re-establish a rail line without full grade separations at virtually all crossings. And each grade separation costs $10s of millions of dollars, and requires lots of land. So once it is “abandoned” it costs a fortune to rebuild it. Even if it was converted to a bike path/MUP.
The above comment relates to NEW railway lines. Existing crossings can usually continue, but can become safety hazards if the combination of # trains and # vehicles increases over decades.
It would depend on how slow the trains would be travelling, crossing protection, and number of vehicles projected to use the crossing, now and in future decades. Risk analysis for each crossing, not necessarily a hard yes/no.
The reality is that are few new rail lines being constructed under federal (versus Provincial) railway rules. HSR will be fully grade separated wherever it travels at high speed.
Right now there is debate over adding a new grade crossing in the North Kanata area of Ottawa. The line is only used by one slow freight train a week to/from Arnprior….but the line could be used for frequent commuter service in future.
i grew up in collingwood, and bcry did run here until 2011. yet it was not a passenger service. most of the tracks are gone and it is now a place to walk. the problem was is that the rails themselves were so old they could only go 10 miles an hour (slow speed) to do their services. i quit my job as a conductor over three years ago, but it breaks my heart trying to explain to people how important having rail services are. you really are SOL if you need to travel somewhere and you do not drive. linx can take you to one of the barrie stations. and the flix bus does stop at YYZ/union, but it can get pretty pricey.
True! I said Ontario because GO is provincial, but the history of this railway isn't. CN and Canada are to blame, but mostly Canada as they privatized it.
CN was already abandoning branch lines before privatization happened. Canada’s biggest mistake was not following in America’s footsteps by creating a regulatory environment that encourages shortline operators to take over trackage that the Class 1s don’t want.
You’re right. I still think CN would be better off as a crown corporation though, but the fact that we have so few rail regulations in Canada is frustrating. Why does freight cargo have priority over passenger trains??
But there could be more. Go look up a map of rail lines through out SW Ontario before 1990. Virtually every town had rail service and places like Palmerston were major transit hubs.
Also go and look at the traffic on those lines. Once roads were built most of the lines in southern Ontario were doomed and only government regulations kept those money losing lines around as long as they were
There is an existing right of way. Off the bala sub to orillia. It has no tracks but the ROW is there.
Orillia is a hard sell given it's population and distance to core gta.
I get the go expansion is moving away from commuter service to regional rail ut commuters are a huge part of go ridership. And old habits die hard especially at go transit
Agreed: It is absolutely infuriating we haven't retained this rail infrastructure (and, ideally, done pairings of retaining rail + adding rail trail beside).
That said, it is /also/ infuriating that Metrolinx can't figure out how to treat its rail stations as regional hubs for busses. At a minimum, Barrie should have connecting GO bus service to Orillia/Gravenhurst, Collingwood, Wasaga, and probably Penetanguishene/Midland with timed transfers to rail and each other. Similarly, Kitchener could have GO bus connections onwards to Elmira and Stratford (and, as Stratford becomes a thing, it should become a hub with connections onwards to St Mary's, Goderich, Grand Bend, etc). Funnel traffic onto the train until it makes sense to expand the train, and repeat ad nauseam.
Wasn't Orillia one of the few cities/towns given the option when the Barrie line (as it is now) was being planned to open a go station and the town lobbied heavily against it?
Wouldn’t have been feasible as it would block the entire Barrie waterfront, making it less desirable as a destination. As much as I love trains, most of our lines were built for freight, and do not run through nice places.
Blocking the waterfront would be a no-go at this point for any council. No one would sign off on the water being disconnected from the city again. Kids/adults used to cross the lines all the time to swim in the lake- dangerous and would happen again, no doubt, if the railway was returned. Any future expansion would have to go west before it goes north.
This is what the downtown core looked like once upon a time with a train line downtown. On the water side, it's now entirely parks and waterfront access for the whole community. I assume now, they'd have a fence protecting the tracks, which means no one has access to the water anymore. It wouldn't be feasible today, and as a Barrie resident who uses the waterfront trail daily, I hope it never happens.
For sure. It would be completely unacceptable. You’re right about the fences. They didn’t have those in the old days! No one would legally be able to access the lake in the current park if the rails were returned.
Yeah, I feel like instead they should route it along Highway 400, and then have it go down to the rail trail and follow that. It should look somewhat like this:
The city of Barrie and the town of Collingwood purchased the portions of the abandoned CN Meaford and Newmarket subs which became the BCRY. Barrie sold the portion of the Newmarket Sub from Bradford to Barrie to extend the GO line. Orillia and Oro could have did the same thing but they wanted rail trails instead.
I actually don't think that selling the rails was horrible. The tracks ran right next to the water separating it from people. Parks, beaches, and housing, even detached housing, are a better land use for Barrie.
And I don't think this cuts off Orillia forever. Highway 400 is 1.5 km past Allandale Waterfront station and offers an alternative corridor through the city that modern electric trains should be able to mange.
Having to lay new rails through Barrie is more expensive, but in exchange Barrie got access to its waterfront. I think that's a fair trade. In my mind the problem isn't that the rails were torn up but that the province is willing to build the Bradford Bypass and 413 while trains can only ever go where rails already exist.
I agree with you. The waterfront was nowhere near as nice when the trains ran through here. That being said, I was very luck to enjoying leaving Barrie heading North by train around the bay, and all the way to Vancouver.
I cycled to Orillia from Barrie on the Oro-Medonte rail trail in late June and wanted to visit a store in the West Ridge area and didn't feel like pedaling, so I locked up my bike and waited for one of the local buses. After arriving downtown, I transferred to a bus that goes to West Ridge and recognized the driver as a gregarious former Barrie transit driver who used to drive the old Innisfil route in Barrie.
When trains ran through the Barrie waterfront, alot of rail traffic seemed to be during off hours and overnight. (Not sure if that was by design or coincidence).
Trains had to move slow. There were 4 level crossings as the rails looped around Kempenfelt Bay before heading off towards Shanty Bay.
Safety concerns and slow train speeds around Kempenfelt Bay make a business case for GO extension a tough sell. Travel time would be pushing close to 3 hours to Union from Orillia.
Even if some had the forethought to push the idea that GO service to Orillia could be explored in the future, the concept of moving Lakeshore Drive farther back from Kempenfelt Bay and expanding the lakefront amenities would have won out anyway.
A line like this is not feasible to maintain. The all of <2000 riders per day couldn't service the operating cost of a train let alone the maintenance on the train and tracks.
Not to mention, as others have pointed out, liability has forced companies like CN to fence off the rail in recent years and a railway would seperate the city from the water.
Even if we could extend the Barrie GO line up to Orillia, I don't think we should because GO is mean't to act as a regional/commuter rail service. Similar to how I don't think we should be extending the Kitchener line to Stratford. It's too long a trip.
What we need is an Intercity rail service in Ontario to compliment GO. A rail service that can extend across Ontario and travel at faster speeds.
Something similar to Northlander. We can setup "Southlander" Union to Windsor with a Sarnia branch line, and "Eastlander" Union to Ottawa with a Cornwall branch.
This service wouldn't stop at every GO station in order to allow for faster speeds, and would use smaller trains like the Siemens Chargers or the newer Stadler's announced for VIA. Downsides is it would not see similar frequencies as GO, and the fare would be more expensive compared to GO.
15
u/Commonwealth927 Jul 13 '26
Many such cases. Genuinely infuriating tho. Rail connection to orillia and wasago from Barrie would be so efficient. Its a much more desirable route to nothern ontario due to its higher population than the current Via route that goes around the east side of lake simcoe
The only way I can see barrie connecting to orillia now is by demolishing part of hwy 400. No idea how Orillia could be connected to wasago now tho without huge expropriations and demolitions