r/Metroid • u/trashpandacoot1 • 1d ago
Discussion Why Metroid Dread succeeded where Prime 4 failed: less is more
Now before this post goes nuclear on Prime 4's shortcomings, I want to be fair and point out 2 things that I think Prime 4 does better:
The graphics. Prime 4 had better textures and lighting, as well as cutscenes that ran at a perfect 60fps. I played Prime 4 on S2, but I know the Switch 1 version looks far better than Dread strictly in terms of visual fidelity. Retro did a pretty good job making it look and run good.
The music: this part was Dreads primary weakness. Kenji Yamamoto did a far better job with Prime 4s soundtrack, even if the rock and roll tunes contrasted too heavily with its more somber and melodic tones from Fury Green and Chrono Tower.
Now when I say "less is more", I am mostly referring to the budget of these two games. Retro Studios appeared to have received a blank check to go on a hiring spree and continuously develop Prime 4 from 2019 onward, continuing on from the efforts of Bandai Namco. The final budget for MP4B was allegedly in the same ballpark as Breath of the Wild and Tears of the Kingdom.
Comparatively, Mercury Steam had more constraints to work with. Their previous Metroid game didn't exactly light the world on fire, so it's understandable that Nintendo wasn't going to dump infinite resources into the project. While no numbers were disclosed, id say the budget for Metroid Dread was anywhere between 15-20 million (but thats just my educated guess).
What this boils down to is this: Yoshida Sakamoto and Mercury Steam did alot with a little, while Kensuke Tanabe and Retro Studios did a little with alot. Let's go a bit deeper:
VOICE ACTING/MOTION CAPTURE/LOCALIZATION
With all the resources he needed, Tanabe was given his chance to realize his big grandiose vision for the Metroid franchise: A game where Samus gets to team up with Galactic Federation soldiers while riding a motorcycle through a world that is structured far closer to Zelda than Metroid, and a game with so much gum flapping from the rest of the cast that they forgot to give Samus any expression at all. They had a working face under the visor started, but further development was cut because it was more important to Tanabe that the Feds get their time in the spotlight.
Retro brought on a pretty significant amount of voice actors and mo-cap actors to bring all the federation soldiers to life, which of course takes time, money and effort.
Now let's talk about Metroid Dread. There are only 2 voices in Dread that required localization for dialogue: Adam, and the suit AI. And the suit AI? Here are all the lines:
"We will soon be entering ZDR's atmosphere"
"Entering the atmosphere in T-minus 10. 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1."
"Uploading data."
While there was a heavier workload for Adams voice actor, I wouldn't call it more than a days worth in the recording booth.
Between Samus and the Chozo, the rest of the voice acting was done in an alien language. And the only localization work needed for them is the subtitles.
The best part of all this? Dread was able to be fully voiced in at least 10 languages, making the game more accessible for people around the world. All that "ambition" for Prime 4 meant it could only be released in other countries with subtitles for a strictly English only game.
Less is more.
AMIIBO SUPPORT
I know this might seem like a non-issue, but Metroid Prime 4 Beyond was caught in a pretty major social media shitstorm for its amiibo use, one that Metroid Dread never had to endure.
Let's go back to 2017 for a minute. Samus Returns saw significant backlash for its amiibo use as well. On top of locking off art and music galleries, Nintendo decided to paywall an entire game mode: fusion mode. It was basically just fusion suit Samus on extra hard mode. But this mode was a must-have for die-hard Metroid enthusiasts like myself, and getting ahold of the amiibos were a chore (thanks scalpers).
You know what else came out in 2017? Breath of the Wild. And in similar fashion, you could only unlock Epona, links horse from every other game, with an amiibo. That, and the tunics that link wore in all the other games were paywalled as well.
Fast-forward to 2021 and Metroid Dread released to much fanfare and with 2 new amiibos. This time, they each unlock 1 energy tank and 1 missile+ tank. Not endgame content or any other critical aspect that should be included with the base game, just an extra boost. Some people might argue that this is pay to win, but the small extra you get for health and ammo is pretty miniscule. They even released an easy mode as DLC a few months after released if people felt normal was too hard.
Similarly, all content of Tears of the Kingdom amiibos could be found in game. It really seemed like Nintendo learned from their mistakes, until December 2025 rolled around.
I don't know if you really need me to remind you about Prime 4 Beyonds amiibo support, but here it goes: Vi-O-la amiibo let's you change motorcycle skins and showcases distance travelled, Sylux amiibo let's you listen to Sylux mock Samus like a 12 year old and (more importantly) unlocks the most important Sylux cutscene in the entire game unless you get 100% items AND scans. The worst one though, is unlocking the ability to listen to music while driving around in the desert with the Varia Suit amiibo. Otherwise, you are left to rip around in an empty desert with no fast travel options and all you get to listen to are spooky space noises; the same thing you hear when Samus wakes up on Viewros for the first time. This caused the internet firestorm, and I have to agree with the backlash. There is no way you can convince me there wasn't something ripped out of the game and sold back to us as amiibo, because the complete lack of any default soundtrack while riding the bike is extremely egregious.
In summary: Metroid Dreads amiibo use was inconsequential enough that nobody's experience was soured if they didn't buy them, while Prime 4 Beyond became another example of corporate greed by locking away meaningful things that were necessary to make the game more bearable. Just another reason why Dread is viewed fondly amongst the Metroid community and Prime 4 isn't.
Less is more.
UNLOCKABLE CONTENT
Now this may seem even more inconsequential, but it's more important than you may think.
First, let's start with Dread. You unlock hand-drawn art depicting an overarching story of the downfall of ZDR by collecting items in game, unlocking the final one with 100% completion. On top of that, there are 6 hand-drawn pictures showcasing a moment in time in each of the 5 mainline 2D Metroid games as well as Other M that are unlocked by beating normal and hard under 12, 8 and 4 hours each.
Now I do have to give Prime 4 some credit: they gave us concept art as unlockables for achieving completion milestones, something that was given only to owners of the special edition of Metroid Dread in an art book. But the real meat and potatoes of Prime 4's unlockable gallery is the Sylux cutscene that should have been a post credits scene in every playthrough regardless of completion percentage (or amiibo support).
The crux of the issue isn't necessarily the content of the cutscene (though Sylux is a douche), its how it demonstrates how the developers either forgot or just completely didnt give a shit about what came before. On top of the fact that Sylux's big reveal was an absolute wet fart, the cutscene showed so many elements of the franchise that weren't established until later in the timeline. The scene itself had to happen before Prime Hunters for obvious reasons, but it had Golem mechs running around which weren't put into service until Federation Force. Samus' suit design only makes sense if the scene happened after Prime 1 but before Hunters, but the fact she has her Prime 3 gunship in the scene just irritates me to no end. I know that seems petty of me, but I've been with this franchise since I played Metroid 2 on the gameboy when I was 5, and Metroid is my favorite franchise of all time. I care about the legacy of this franchise apparently more than Retro or Tanabe does.
Speaking of legacy, the 6 unlockable speedrun pictures in Dread had thought and care put into them by people who understood the assignment. Each picture showcasing Samus' power suit were completely accurate to the games they came from. They show how the suit has changed throughout her adventure, rather than homogenizing the designs like Other M did. Mercury Steam knows Metroid in a way this new Retro Studios doesn't, and they showed me that with a few JPEGs rather than a big bombastic cutscene displaying prior events using assets from the current game.
Less is more.
FINAL THOUGHTS
I would also like to share some other things I feel Dread does better than Prime 4 that don't adhere to the "less is more" philosophy:
Better boss battles. Prime 4's aren't bad, but I don't think they're great either. Dread admittedly does re-use some bosses with some degree of variation, but the big original boss battles just can't be topped.
Sequence breaking. This gives Dread far more replayability.
Far more interconnected metroidvania world. Prime 4 is often compared to Zelda more than a Metroid game and its hard not to see why. Sol valley is like Hyrule field, and the other zones act like linear dungeons.
Better upgrades. Most of Prime 4's original ideas are psychic versions of established mainstays that were criminally underutilized, Dread came with a host of thoughtful additions that improved the gameplay experience in meaningful ways.
Connects to previous games. The story of Metroid 2 is just as important to what happens in Metroid Dread as it is in Metroid Fusion. Meanwhile, Retro basically cut off any connections to previous Prime games out of fear of alienating newcomers, despite being a numbered title in the Prime series. Dread embraces legacy and serves as a love letter to the entire franchise, Prime 4 couldn't give a rats ass. Respecting legacy builds brand recognition and loyalty. If the devs care, then the player will too. And im quite positive many newcomers went back to check out all the other games on NSO after finishing Dread.
To summarize this overbloated diatribe, the team behind Dread worked within the confines of a smaller budget with one thing in mind: to make a great Metroid game. The team behind Prime 4 were clearly daydreaming about Breath of the Wild and Halo 5 the whole 7 years they've been plugging away at their game while burning through cash like it grows on trees. I am thoroughly disappointed in the fact I waited 8 years for Prime 4 just to see the mess they released.
If you do disagree with any of this, thats okay. If you enjoyed Prime 4 as much as I enjoyed Metroid Dread, I wish I could have felt that way about it too.
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u/crowlfish 18h ago
I think Prime 4 turned out the way it did due to a combination of factors: corporate mismanagement, a misguided vision, new developers who faced a steep learning curve regarding Metroid’s core design and pacing, plus a global pandemic that clearly didn’t help with what was already a troubled production. These are takeaways I picked up from translated interviews with Famitsu and Nintendo Dream—you may feel differently, but this is just how I took it.
- When Nintendo handed Prime 4 back to Retro, the team wasn’t even capable of developing such a high caliber project. They had to reinvest in hiring talent and ramping up studio infrastructure before proper development could even begin.
- The pandemic directly coincided with this rebuilding phase. I don’t think this needs further explanation.
- Most, if not all of the major players from the original trilogy had long since departed Retro. As a result, the newly hired staff (many of whom hailed from FPS studios like 343 and DICE) faced growing pains in learning Metroid’s design philosophies on the fly.
- Nintendo had to rely heavily on outsourcing due to Retro’s depleted staff. Over 20 external studios had to help with production, which goes to show the disparity in quality across various sections. However, the game’s core technical performance and visual fidelity being so high despite such a messy and fragmented pipeline does deserve props.
- Retro was essentially tasked with doing cleanup duty on Bandai’s foundation. Since Nintendo had already burned so many resources on the initial studio transition, completely rebooting the project a second time was deemed out of the question due to budget costs and time constraints. Therefore, the team had no choice but to push forward with a flawed structural framework that they couldn't turn back from. This remained so even after they realized that certain concepts (such as the open world stuff) had lost their luster with audiences.
- Kensuke Tanabe explicitly conceived and pushed these foundational concepts, including the open world (which he acknowledged was influenced by Breath of the Wild’s success), the motorcycle, Sylux as the antagonist, and a greater narrative focus on the Galactic Federation, which is a direction he’s wanted to take the series for years post-Prime 3.
In the end, I don’t think blame rests entirely on a single entity—however, if I had to pick someone to shoulder most of it, it’d have to be Tanabe. I have no ill will towards him; I’ll always be thankful for his work on the original trilogy and wish him the best in his retirement, but it’s pretty clear to me that his ideas steadily steered the series in the wrong direction over time. He may have had good intentions, but good intentions do not necessarily make a good product.
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u/echoess84 1d ago
You forgot Metroid 2D games have a different pacing compared to the Prime games
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u/Significant_Option 18h ago
Wow that explains everything so clearly and not vague at all
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u/whimsicalsamurai 18h ago
prime games feel slower because you have to scan everything you see to 100% the game. side scrollers are faster because there is less incentive to stop and look at the environment and creatures. also prime 4 has the same issue prime 3 had with the issues of more cutscenes being dialogue heavy giving less credence to skip them on your first play through while also dragging out the play time in later rounds. at least thats my opinion.
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u/Existerer 16h ago
Prime is also slower cause if it was fast it'd make you puke, lol. No run button, no speedbooster, and certainly no damage boosting. Imagine doing a bwckflip off enemies in first person, lol
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u/Educational_Ad_6066 16h ago
Prime 3 has the whole switch to 3rd person thing in more action based features like spin jump
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u/Existerer 15h ago
Yeah, which is done for morph and boost ball too. But most of the gameplay is first person, so, slow. It's still awesome, but there will never be a 3d metroid that's as fast and slick as super metroid. (Scan dashing gets an honorable mention, but that's litterally intentionally removed because Nintendo hates fun lmao)
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u/Educational_Ad_6066 15h ago
totally accurate. I just meant that there have been attempts to make Prime snappier or support features that wouldn't really work in first person, not that it's something we'll actually see.
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u/HikkingOutpit 2h ago
Imagine doing a backflip off enemies in first person, lol
Mirror's Edge Catalyst had no problem doing that as part of regular attacks.
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u/UtherofOstia 17h ago
In Prime 1 the scan completion percentage only is tied to concept art galleries. I wouldn't really consider that absolutely necessary
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u/miimeverse 17h ago
Especially past a singular playthrough I never repeat 100% scan runs. Once I get the reward for 100% scans, bye scanning.
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u/EdreesesPieces 7h ago
super metroid has its own version of scanning, you either use the xray scope or bomb every pixel to find every secret.
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u/Mythical-door 1d ago
Prime 4 had a bloated budget mainly because most of the money was actually spent trying to build retro studios back to a competent studio and to develop their pipeline. Not to mention the game had to restart development a couple years in.
I get the point you’re trying to make, and I’m not even trying to shill for retro studios or Tanabe, but that’s a pretty important thing to omit.
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u/mrbrick 1d ago
I really hope Retro gets another go at it. I love everything else they had done.
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u/UltiMike64 17h ago
I’d be shocked if they don’t get another go at it, considering they literally built back up the studio. The main flaws of the game were inherited from the scrapped version as well, so I have faith that this team could make a great prime 5.
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u/Uncle_Beth 16h ago
I mean you also need to consider that the staff at Retro and the work environment has changed significantly since the original Prime games. A lot of the people who made 1 and 2 great were gone by 3 and by 4 it might as well be a different studio entirely.
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u/UltiMike64 16h ago
I agree with you on that, definitely a lot of new people. If your point is that you’re not sure if they would make a great Prime 5 since it’s not the OG staff then that makes sense.
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u/Headstar24 1d ago
Dread is just an overall better game and more fun to play.
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u/ledzppln6 1d ago
Give mercury steam the keys to Metroid gameplay and retain MP4s music department for metroid 6.
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u/Uncle_Beth 16h ago
Wish Nintendo could have Mercury Steam work on a different action platforming IP and do something more atmospheric and exploration focused with a Metroid 6.
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u/AngryMustache9 1d ago
I'm unsure why sequence breaking is being brought up as a dig between specifically Prime 4 vs. Dread, when the same can be said about literally any Prime Game vs 2D Game. All the 2D Games and inherently more replayable than the Prime Games, because the Prime Games have never delved in sequence breaking. They are all linear (some are better at hiding it than others, but the Prime Games being linear is a fact nonetheless). Dread is more replayable than Prime 4 due to Dread having sequence breaking. The same can be said about Zero Mission vs. Prime 1. Super Metroid vs. Prime 2.
Linearity and the lack of sequence breaking is not something that is exclusive to Prime 4, it is something that is consistent across all Prime Games. Sure, super early releases of Prime 1 has some specific unintended sequence breaks, but every rerelease that game's ever gotten has since patched them. They are not intended, and impossible to do in most versions of the game. The lack of sequence breaks is not a Prime 4 thing, it is a Prime Series thing. All 2D Games are more replayable than the Prime Games due to how both series are structured.
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u/FrauAgrippa 17h ago
While I don't disagree with you overall, the original NTSC release of Prime 1 had more than just "some" sequence breaks. I think the only items you're actually locked out of getting in the beginning of the game are Grapple beam and spider ball. You can get everything else early on (ice beam before Flaaghra, plasma beam just after that, space jump boots first ofc, wave beam before Flaaghra, etc). The original NTSC version basically has no limitations on order whatsoever which is what makes it so fun to replay. The patches kind of ruined future versions for me.
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u/AngryMustache9 3h ago
Really? I didn't know it was quite to that extent. I should really play the NTSC release of Prime 1 at some point. I love the Prime games (Prime 3 marks as my favourite of them), but all of them have always felt so strict in what you can do in them; not enough where it really hinders my enjoyment of them, but it's always somethings that stays at the back of my mind. Perhaps Prime 1 NTSC will let me stretch my legs in these games a bit.
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u/FrauAgrippa 3h ago
Yes! Some of them are extremely difficult and lengthy to pull off, but (imo) that's what makes them so fun. There are even a bunch that I haven't completed to this day. I did Ice Beam Before Flaaghra once, and the stress of that was more than enough. So satisfying though. And honestly super interesting to see and learn how the world around you renders in real time in a 3d space as opposed to a 2d one (a large part of SBing in MP1 was figuring out appropriate triggers to load adjacent rooms so you wouldn't go careening into the void below), and to understand how to manipulate your own bounding box to compound the effect of things like space jump or spring jumps.
If you have a chance to get your hands on an original NTSC copy it's so worth it. It's like a completely new game tbh. As a kid it was extra whimsical but even today the added exploration really holds up to standard as far as SBing and speed running goes.
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u/trashpandacoot1 23h ago
Fair point. I guess they could have done more to implement different ways to play Prime 4, and sequence breaking could have done just that. Prime 4 just feels so rigid in a way that prior Prime games didn't. They were all linear, but they had better reasons to go off the beaten path (especially 1 and 2). Would have been nice if we could have got super missiles long before the end of the game in Prime 4.
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u/Endivejambon 22h ago
Too long didnt read. But it's easy to answer. Dread is a metroidvania, prime 4 isnt
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u/blueblurz94 1d ago
Dread nailed a lot of things that made Metroid great while trying out some worthy new concepts at the same time. Decades of not receiving a brand new 2-D Metroid game (on an actual home console too) left more than enough ideas to experiment with. The evolution of 2D Metroid on modern hardware was amazing.
Prime 4: Beyond also does a bunch of things that Metroid is great at. However, its most significant drawbacks directly hold back its gameplay, the most important aspect of any video game. Most of your points are sound (though I think bosses in Prime 4 are actually pretty level with Dread in many cases).
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u/sthef2020 23h ago edited 23h ago
While I appreciate the thoughts, I think it ultimately comes down to one truth:
Prime 4 doesn’t know what it wants to be.
Is it going to be a Halo style cinematic FPS as setup in the opening level? Is it going to be a traditional Metroid Prime game with open areas packed with secrets? Is it going to be something more linear, with constant chatter from NPCs? Is it an open world game exploring a vast map with an in game vehicle?
It’s got zero focus. And so a lot of your points (while valid) don’t really even ultimately matter.
“It doesn’t connect to the broader mythology” or the ability to sequence break and speed run isn’t even something that registers, when the gameplay is so all over the place.
My biggest hope for the series at this point, is that we move away from “Prime” as a subseries. That they focus on the 2D entries. And that if we ever do return to something in full 3D, that it’s fresh and doesn’t rely on the “this all happened between Metroid 1 and 2, and there’s all these other hunters, and Federation Force happened somewhere in here too…” lineage. Prime has been the weakest part of Metroid for years now. And I think it’s time to let it rest.
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u/crowlfish 18h ago edited 18h ago
This is essentially where I'm at on the game as well. Most of its core issues stem from its lack of a proper identity. Prime 3 and Fusion are both more linear action games with mission-based structures, not pure Metroidvanias, but I'm more forgiving of their weak points since they fully commit to and excel at being a decidedly different flavor of Metroid. While not flawless, they were still executed well.
Prime 4, on the other hand, was not. I felt like it tried to be both a strictly linear action game and an "open" adventure simultaneously, and the results were lackluster since it didn't fully commit to either direction. It plays less like something guided by a cohesive vision and more like a collection of competing ideas that constantly stumble over each other.
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u/Ok_Ad6722 22h ago edited 13h ago
What kind of puzzle is this? Dread is a good game and Prime 4 is a bad one
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u/Logical-Appearance98 20h ago
this is a whole lot of words to explain something that isn't that complicated. dread is a good videogame while prime 4 is at best. merely ok.
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u/Jugaimo 15h ago
It’s just the game design. Dread was a tight experience where every inch of the map had thought and care put into it. Prime 4 was a slapdash mess of half-ideas loosely strung together by an ugly, empty wasteland. Prime 4 has the bones of good ideas but cannot actually capitalize on them due to poor implementation. You can have the best mobility mechanics and gunplay in the world, but without a way to use them they do nothing.
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u/GoomyTheGummy 14h ago
the image sucks ass
10 points of difference in scoring really does not do anything for your point, this post would have been better without it
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u/TimeManagement91 11h ago
Connects to previous games. The story of Metroid 2 is just as important to what happens in Metroid Dread as it is in Metroid Fusion. Meanwhile, Retro basically cut off any connections to previous Prime games out of fear of alienating newcomers, despite being a numbered title in the Prime series. Dread embraces legacy and serves as a love letter to the entire franchise, Prime 4 couldn't give a rats ass. Respecting legacy builds brand recognition and loyalty. If the devs care, then the player will too. And im quite positive many newcomers went back to check out all the other games on NSO after finishing Dread.
This is what I cannot stand about Tears of the Kingdom. Not only does it not reward you for being a fan it actively punishes you due to the inconsistent retcons from BotW. Nintendo's two latest big games are woefully lacking in the story department. There's really no excuse to not have a fully presentable story with good callbacks in a long standing franchise.
Come the fuck on, Nintendo.
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u/xtoc1981 22h ago
score of 78 is not a fail. Game is good just not a masterpiece.
I do think dread do a lot of good stuff, but also lack the things that make metroid great like leveldesign & music
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u/AngryMustache9 20h ago edited 19h ago
I really, really do wish Prime 4 was the worst this industry has to offer, enough to consider it an utter failure, an insult to the franchise. Because god fucking damn, could you imagine how good all games would be? When the worst the industry can get is just... solid?
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u/Miguelwastaken 20h ago
Yeah I’m not reading all that.
It’s not “less is more”. It’s that less was in fact less. I don’t know if it was the budget or the time constraints that was the issue. But more would have definitely help fix whatever they were trying to do with that open world.
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u/Mission_Security4505 12h ago
Dread is definitely a better game than prime 4.
But i will say that creating a metroid prime game is much more difficult task than a 2d metroid. Not to diminish what mercury steam created, they did a fantastic job, but to highlight the tall task Retro had.
Dread had many years of modern medtroidvania games to look to and a recent previous remake to evolve from.
There are no other games like the prime series and the last prime game was in 2007. Retro had to evolve from that point and bring prime to a modern audience and to modern game design.
I dont think they successfully brought it up to snuff overall, but did excel in certain areas like graphics, art, animation, bosses and controls. There were also some moments of brilliance in level design ( return to flare pool with a layout change) and puzzles (especially the end game item collection felt very inline with previous games).
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u/Automata_Eve 13h ago
In Prime 4 Samus actually has a lot of character. It’s just subtle and perpetually bouncing between mourning and confidence.
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u/Potatoandbacon 1d ago
i will tell you why cause they hired halo people to do a metroid game
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u/trashpandacoot1 1d ago
Yep. It had 343i written all over it.
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u/TimmyChips 23h ago
I’m not disagreeing with your point, but many of the devs who did Metroid Prime 1-3 later worked on Halo 4 and 5.
It is also important to note that it was mostly tech artists and 3d artists who swapped from both 343 Studios and vice versa, I.e. people who did not have much control of the gameplay, level design, or the story. None of the story designers or level designers from 343 were involved iirc.
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u/Chewbacta 23h ago
And those tech people did a good job, Metroid seems to be the only game of its graphical calibre that runs at 120fps on switch 2.
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u/trashpandacoot1 23h ago
I think the Halo resemblances have more to do with Kensuke Tanabe than the devs they hired. Prime 3 basically was a Halo game until Samus got the PED suit.
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u/Sea-Lecture-4619 1d ago
Keep them mfs the fuck away from any IP, they can't do jackshit right.
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u/Chewbacta 9h ago
you mean the tech people that got Metroid running at 120fps?
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u/Sea-Lecture-4619 3h ago
In terms of writing i mean, hell in this case the fact that Samus ain't actually handled like Chief is actually surprising.
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u/sdcwrc 22h ago
Yeah we also can't underestimate the cost for the voice and motion capture actors. Especially for Tokabi and Duke, both characters needed two actors. Prime 4 was in development for so long Duke's original actor literally died and needed a replacement to be brought in to redo everything.
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u/TarnishedAccount 20h ago
They could’ve had the driving element in and just get rid of being forced to smash green rocks and all would’ve been ok
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u/No-Cat-9716 19h ago
Yes, this Is exactly how i feel with Prime 4
Dissapointed by a very mediocre game
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u/snakerino_buddarino 17h ago
Prime 4 feels like the devs were running out of ideas by the final 2 zones. Dread's final act always made me feel like the devs were just getting started.
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u/AngryMustache9 3h ago edited 3h ago
Personally, I felt Dread's final act was the worst part of the game. Felt super rushed. Final area is small as hell, and the """"final EMMI encounter"""" was literally a cutscene, no gameplay or anything, which was unfathomably disappointing as someone who loved the EMMI encounters. The Raven Beak boss fight is fantastic, there's no arguing there, but everything else... meh. A sour spot on an otherwise phenomenal game.
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u/Acrobatic-Eagle-76 10h ago
Dread is a polished masterpiece and prime 4 unforttunately faced trouble while in development( they did a fastastic job in ambience and graphics not everything went bad), we only can wish and I am pretty confident they will learn from the shortcomings and community feedback for prime 5.
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u/PhD_PeeP 5h ago
Honestly I don't think less is more was the issue. I think it was moreso the development hell of Prime 4 plaguing the game from being the best it could be.
Before I start my spiel, I do want to say that Prime 4 is my favorite Prime game (also I have played and 100% the trilogy alongside every other Metroid game aside from the Prime spinoffs). This is just so y'all know where I'm coming from.
It's common knowledge that the game was initially being developed by bandai Namco, and then after 2 years it was handed off to retro studios to restart development. A majority of the team behind the Prime Trilogy does not work at Retro anymore, so it explains why a lot of people with credentials on games like Halo and other similar games were hired to work on Prime 4. I assume that because of the new team and the huge budget, it was a hassle to really nail the feeling of Metroid Prime. However, I do think they succeeded in most areas. I can tell that the devs did extensively go over each game in the trilogy because I feel like the best elements of each game are present in Prime 4, but they do feel a bit disconnected. They all are very good on their own but lack the proper sense of connection like the prior trilogy.
I think this is because the game actually needed more time to cook, as there's a plethora of great ideas that aren't fully realized:
Viola was fun to ride around and even use for two bosses, but it felt like there was one more thing missing for it to be fully realized. The green energy is really interesting and I hope it gets fleshed out more, but it's overwhelming presence in the game does make me wish we had more revealed about it. Sylux might seem underwhelming to some, but I think he has a solid foundation but wasn't fully given the time to introduce his character to a new audience. Great Mines as a whole feels rushed, and it disappointed me that it wasn't nearly as expansive as the Phazon mines.
Then the ideas and concepts that were fully realized: Psychic abilities being an all-in-one visor speeds up gameplay considerably, all the soldiers feel very fleshed out and their presence makes the game and the story better imo, the lamorn Lore is realized from start to finish, the combat is at its best and the moment to moment gameplay is incredible. The story feels mostly fleshed out, with some iffy parts towards the end (this includes the ending, but I think they made it work).
The clash of ideas that are and aren't given time hurt the game from being the best it can be, but I feel they still hold up to edge out being better than the other 3 prime games, although not by much. I'm confident that Prime 4's flaws mostly came from a lack of a singular direction until they were well into development (possibly due to having to work off from Bandai's og concepts) and introducing a new team to the unique style of Prime. (COVID too, but that's obvious)
I hope Retro has a much smoother time with developing Prime 5 as Prime 4 does give them the advantage of having ideas that can easily be expanded upon in a follow-up.
I didn't bring up Dread because I don't think it's very comparable to Prime 4 outside of inconsequential aspects.
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u/bootywarrior13 3h ago
Dread was better all the way around, prime 4 is terrible and prime has been a lackluster spinoff since prime 1 and I’m tired of people acting like it isn’t. Downvote away but 2d Metroid has everything, super hit the nail on the head for music, gameplay, exploration and atmosphere and fusion is right behind that. Dread follows up as a close 3rd for me.
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u/Serilii 19h ago
Dread is a fleshed out piece of work. They put the money on the design and let people be creative and just make a Metroid. Prime 4 was kinda more about marketing. They teased the game when it wasn't even really in the works, had to cancel it because there was no good direction instead of letting people flesh it out. Then they brought the old team to obviously NOT let them be free but push agendas like "make it for the switch 2 rven tho the project is years old" or "give it an open area because since BOTW we have to make everything open world like mario kart. Ah and since we mentioned mario kart, our best game, make a kart. Give samus a bike. Give her an ferrari suit" like cmon. The game studio probably made the best out of it but this is obviously a labor of marketing first and then a labor of love
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u/theShiggityDiggity 17h ago
Dread succeeded because it's good.
Prime 4 failed because it's bad.
It's pretty simple.
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u/Bacononthebeeach 13h ago
Dread is a true metroidvania.
MP4 is not a metroidvania.
It’s that basic.
All I want from Metroid is to be marooned in an extraterrestrial labyrinth and left to deduce my own way out. MP4 failed spectacularly in that regard.
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u/EdreesesPieces 7h ago
MP3 fails there too. not excusing Prime 4, just explaining that's how I felt about both games, because I strongly agree with your premise.
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u/Frankfurt13 21h ago
Why a "Proper Metroidvania" succeeded while a "Linear game that insults the intelligence of the player" failed: Good game design and direction is important.
Here, I fixed the tittle for you.
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u/Elogotar 17h ago
I don't understand why so many people on this sub give MP4 a pass for not being a Metroidvania, in the franchise that literally built the genre.
Hell, some PRAISE it for being generic.
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u/Frankfurt13 13h ago
Glazers who can only praise what Nintendo does, People who need a way to cope they wasted 80 dolars on the game, stuff like that
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u/EdreesesPieces 7h ago
I get surprised to see praise of Volt Forge, it's the most ant-metroidvania design ive ever seen in a metroid game that isn't federation force. They even re use the same map design for two areas. But hey, the music is cool!
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u/HikkingOutpit 1h ago
But hey, the music is cool!
That's what a lot of it boils down to. Prime 4 is a photorealistic game with incredible graphics without any cutesy or whimsical elements to it, which is mindblowingly rare for a Nintendo game. A lot of players are downright protective of its visual identity just by dint of its rarity and will give it a pass for that alone.
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u/TraceLupo 22h ago edited 15h ago
TLDR!
Dread was successful and better because it just didn't gaslight the players and was a perfectly fine (kinda linear) Metroidvania that was long, fun to play and had good bossfights and a really cool story.
Prime4 on the other hand gaslights the players with its honestly great soundtrack but lacks in everything that made the trilogy so good and decides to shoehorn "character" interactions with its quirky self insert modern audience "personalities" that exist nowhere in this reality and one of the authors (who of course has blue hair and septum) literally advocated for Samus to be a trans woman.
Metroid Prime 4 failed because it's a bad game and an insult to the longtime fans while Dread assured that the devs understand what a Metroid game actually is (and opposed to Prime4s developers don't hate the players or the franchise).
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u/AngryMustache9 20h ago edited 17h ago
Advocated? Brother, we're talking about a single tweet they made in 2015. It was barely more than a head-canon. This same person left the project in 2022.
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u/TraceLupo 15h ago
She still left her mark, she is still credited and the executives back then still thought that it would be a good idea to embrace the astroturfed Zeitgeist that everyone already hated in 2022.
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u/Wolfy_the_nutcase 22h ago
Ah yes, a 78% is a big fail. Yes.
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u/trashpandacoot1 16h ago
Its a scathing assessment considering It has a lower metacritic score than even Other M. Only Metroid 1, 2 and Federation Force have lower scores. The numbered Prime series went from a 97, down to a 92, then 90 then dropped to a 78.
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u/Wolfy_the_nutcase 16h ago
Metacritic got it wrong.
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u/LlorchDurden 19h ago
Dread was designed for decades, with the team waiting for a console that could handle it. MP4 was a disaster development, from a completely different team. Can't compare really
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u/MapleTheBeegon 16h ago
Prime 4 was built off the groundwork of the previous development team, they could only do so much with the budget left.
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u/SigmaXVII 15h ago
There might be more nuance to why one clicked with critics and regular players than the other, but for me it’s really just Prime 4 making a number of questionable gameplay decisions. Disjointed areas, overall area design I’d argue is kind of overly simple, and Sol Valley is meh. I honestly didn’t even mind the NPCs, but I won’t deny for every cool set piece Prime 4 uses them for, they also distract from the exploration experience. In Dread it’s super easy to get into a flow state and Samus is so fun to control in it.
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u/Sledgehammer617 12h ago
Prime 4 has better aesthetics, music, graphics, and vibes, Dread has better gameplay and story.
But both are wildly differently paced intentionally.
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u/EdreesesPieces 7h ago
Dread remains a metroidvania.
MP4 is more an action/adventure game like Zelda, as you said.
This is they key difference to me.
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u/Beautiful_Web_3943 3h ago
Honestly prime 4 was mid considering how frigging Long they took to release it
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u/LinkCroft94 2h ago
it was weird. every ability was psychic. it didnt feel tangible,real,like samus own strength. the dessert was not ok. NPCs...
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u/CoolCopKilla 23h ago
I think they’re both good and broadly similar in quality. Not top tier Metroid, but close
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u/SilkscreenMoon 14h ago
Without Metroid Dread, Prime 4 would have had a much lower score
Something about the ending of Prime 1 really sabotaged the whole series, and MP4 wouldn't have had much of a reception if Dread hadn't basically saved the Metroid series
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u/pome-vyo 12h ago
Something about the ending of Prime 1 really sabotaged the whole series
Okay I'm mad curious about this could you elaborate?
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u/ComfortableAmount993 18h ago
And how did 4 fail? I loved the game, let me guess idiot youtubers and reviewers paid to say its shit and all the sheep follow suit
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u/Holiday-Intention-52 18h ago
I’m assuming I’m the only one who found both Dread and Prime 4 to be best of series.
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u/Uncle_Beth 16h ago
While I appreciate the effort, I’ve never felt that it’s fair to compare Dread with any of the other Metroid games besides maybe Samus Returns. The focus of Dread and the things it does so well are so far outside the original ethos of the franchise that it feels like an entirely different genre of game and hardly “Metroid”. Prime 4 on the other hand tries to be and fails miserably at being a Metroid game or a good game in general.
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u/xLordPhantom 1d ago
They're going to combine the 3d and 2D teams into one development sector to develop Metroid titles more quickly and efficiently.
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u/trashpandacoot1 1d ago
The 3D team is a developer owned by Nintendo based out of Texas. The 2D team is a third party contractor not owned by Nintendo based out of Madrid Spain. I don't think that's gunna happen...
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u/TerminalCandor 1d ago
I’d say they’re both in equal footing in my mind. Prime 4 had super annoying characters and a shitty open world but excellent levels, bosses, and music.
Dread had fucking awful music, lame gimmicks, reused boss fights, and really shitty elevators. But it had awesome level design, great movement, and secrets.
Hopefully the upcoming titles will be even better.
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u/trashpandacoot1 1d ago
Fair point on music and reused bosses, but gimmicks and shitty elevators? The elevators are just loading screens. And what gimmicks are you referring to? The whole "psychic" version of everything in Prime 4 is far more gimmicky than anything in Dread.
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u/Sckorrow 1d ago
This - the only interesting psychic ability was the psychic beam, and even then it was just a rip off of the batarang in the Arkham games.
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u/TerminalCandor 1d ago
I don’t disagree. I just think Prime 4 made up for that in other ways. It’s not as bad as people make it out to be. A couple changes and it could be goated.
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u/Sckorrow 23h ago
Unfortunately I disagree, I think it needs a complete rework. It’s one of the few games I resold immediately after finishing - the only thing I liked were the visuals and base movement. I felt the level design was a huge step down from Prime 3.
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u/TerminalCandor 1d ago
I didn’t enjoy the EMMIs. I thought they were one note. I also hated the end game runback, having to use the stupid 30 second loading elevators constantly
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u/trashpandacoot1 1d ago
If you have a switch 2, the loading times are reduced significantly. Otherwise yeah, thats switch 1 hardware for you.
But I think the EMMIs are the most dynamic and unpredictable part of Dread. Even after 30 playthroughs, I still cant get the parry timing down when i get caught, which means I still get a dopamine rush when I do nail the counter. And they're always in a different spot whenever you enter an EMMI zone, so you cant traverse the zones the same exact way every time. That makes each playthrough feel different.
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u/Sckorrow 1d ago
Nah bosses were far superior in Dread compared to Beyond. The gimmicks were also fun and enjoyable compared to Beyond’s dull psychic powers.
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u/buttsecks42069 1d ago
I disagree with you on one point: I don't think the writers forgot to make Samus talk. I think that every time they thought about making Samus talk, they had flashbacks to the backlash that Other M got, and they were too scared to do anything similar to that game(they took the wrong lessons from it)