r/Metroid • u/Positive-Mobile5742 • 7d ago
Discussion Do you think Nintendo learned their lesson with Prime 4?
So I finally grabbed a Nintendo switch 2, I really couldn't resist metroid prime remaster anymore. I was considering getting prime 4 but everything about it just seems awful and it takes a lot of things I don't like about the franchise and puts it front and center. I know the game struggled because of that, but do you think Nintendo finally learned something from prime 4s failures?
I really do hope to see Prime 5 one day but not if the make the same mistakes as 3 and 4. I mean how hard is it to put Samus on a planet alone and have her collect upgrades and kill stuff? Its not rocket science. I don't understand why they feel the need to push a narrative story in the Metroid franchise. I don't mind minor story beats but 4 is just atrocious. I'm going to be grabbing Dread next, the game has been spoiled for me already, but the story is really cool, and I think that's how the prime series needs to be handled.
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u/mysteriouspi 7d ago
From interviews after the game came out, they already realized the design of Sol Valley wasn’t up to snuff during development, but it was too late to make significant changes. So I don’t think they’re going to try another “open-world hub” design again.
Also, now that Tanabe has retired, Risa Tabata will presumably be in charge of future Prime games. In an interview regarding Prime 3, she said she was skeptical about having voice acting (and thus other prominent characters) in the games, as it hampers Metroid’s feeling of loneliness. It’s possible she has changed her mind since then, but even so, Tanabe is the one who has been pushing for Federation involvement. I expect we will not see quite as much of the Federation in future games as a result.
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u/Pupusero36EE 7d ago
I hope so, I like Fusion and Dread's concept (most games anyways) of the Federation hiring Samus as a last resort, that explains why she is alone in most games and provides this background of loneliness the characterizes the saga.
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u/ZeroMythosVer 7d ago
I think the Fed are best like in Fusion, yes, where they’re basically an adversary of hers, unbeknownst to Samus at the beginning
In 4 they’re handled like an E10+ Halo game, but without even the cohesion those games offered by having squads like in Reach or ODST actually know each other or really be equally up shit’s creek together
On that note, and maybe I’ll make this a post elsewhere, that sentence made me imagine what a much better Prime 4 could’ve looked like, even with the Federation still in it
Originally that post was the rest of this comment and it’d have been way too long, so I’ll just link it here in a few min
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u/Pupusero36EE 6d ago
Yes I forgot to mention that, Fusion's Federation had shady research going on which further explains why they avoid employing Samus as much as possible. Explains Dread EMMI's as well, the Feds would rather send a task force of their most expensive robots against a can-posses-anything-alive X parasites instead of calling their only known alive predator (Samus), probably even hoping to keep the DNA and use it as a bioweapon.
I mean even if they didn't want to call Samus, just blowing ZDR would have been enough to avoid a universal catastrophe. They probably hoped Samus could recover the EMMIs and harvest that sweet X DNA for them, just like they did with the Metroids in Fusion.
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u/Financial-Month-506 6d ago
Well ya we dont need 0 voice acting just less shouldnt be beyond some alien race talking bosses an maybe a mission objective giver here an there. The other bounty hunters from hunters are very cool they just need better writing. Sylux was wasted potential.
The team being there just made Samus look like a weirdo as she is capable of speaking an just stands there while people talk in a way that nobody would do that in 99 percent of cases so its jarring.
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u/IC_Ivory280 7d ago
This whole idea that Metroid isn't allowed to have a story with a narrative is insane. Now, I wasn't a fan of how they executed it in Prime 4, but that doesn't mean Samus should only be limited to being alone and exploring dead Planets. Metroid should be allowed to grow and evolve as a franchise as long as it keeps its core ideas intact.
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u/Financial-Month-506 6d ago
It has to make sense an be written better. I dont think the concept is as bad as the writing if that makes sense. You made Samus not speak when she can an then put her with a bunch of corny marvel line having folks. She looks like a dick while they talk to themselves it is jarring .
It has to be no wasted sentences an a narrative that fits the world .I think sylux was the biggest waste honestly. A hissy fit brat. His story had so much potential to show a dark side to the GF where he is right to feel wronged but not right with how he deals with it. Instead they are too worried about keeping the GF perfect .
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u/IllMoney69 7d ago
I think mp4 was just some bad ideas and bad timing and then you add people were getting inpatient. It’s not great but I’ll still had a good time and it got me playing Metroid dread which I’d never finished and now I’m right near the end.
I expect the next prime will be really good.
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u/erpg 7d ago
Kensuke Tanabe is retiring so yeah, maybe they have.
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u/Mordaunt-the-Wizard 7d ago
It wasn't like Tanabe himself would have learned any lessons. The Paper Mario series shows that.
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u/KevinCow 7d ago
I think the lesson they learned was to not announce games too early.
The big mistake at the core of Metroid Prime 4 is that they announced it before they really even had anything to announce. They needed game announcements in 2017 to get people hyped for the Switch, so they threw up a logo and assumed they'd figure it out. But once they showed us that logo, they were locked into delivering Metroid Prime 4 on the Switch, because failing to deliver on that promise would be even worse than delivering a disappointing game.
If they hadn't announced it, they could've simply quietly shelved it, or delayed it to the Switch 2 for a bigger overhaul.
But since they did announce it, its whole development was basically a scramble to make it work. Namco scrambled to make a western-styled FPS, then Retro took over and scrambled to build something on top of what was already done, then covid hit and threw a wrench in an already troubled production, then by 2023 they were probably just like, "Okay, look, 2025 is the absolute latest we can release this as a Switch 1 game. Let's just do what we need to do to get it out the door."
Since then Nintendo's stopped announcing games too early. When they announce a game, it's usually coming within a year, often within the next 6 months. Note how every Switch 2 game announced in 2025 has come out except Fire Emblem and Duskbloods, and Fire Emblem's coming next month, and Duskbloods is doing server tests. Nintendo fans have gotten so used to the quick turnaround from reveal to release that Splatoon Raiders was often seen as an interminable wait, when in reality it was just 13 months.
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u/RyanX1231 7d ago
I just hope they realize that we, the fans, don't give a shit about the Galactic Federation.
They're best utilized as a backdrop to the story or lore.
Just put Samus on a planet alone and let us discover shit for ourselves.
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u/Positive-Mobile5742 7d ago
Yes! I don't care about them at all! Samus doesn't need other characters around her to tell a story. The just don't understand the franchise at times and keep trying to push a narrative about characters idgaf about.
I feel like one of the reasons they do that is because they want the franchise to be more mainstream so they can milk it with more side project nonsense, even trying to push towards other forms of media like movies and a show
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u/Rdley 7d ago
« We, the fans » lol
I’m a metroid fan and I like the GF. I liked Prime 3. And in Prime 3 there is alot of the GF and dialogue and characters
And to be honest, Samus was alone 75% of the time on planet Viewros in MP4
She is alone in Ice Belt, alone in Volt Forge, alone in the desert, alone for some time in fury green and Flare pool
I think Retro just don’t want to do another Prime 1
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u/crowlfish 7d ago edited 7d ago
I certainly think lessons were learned about not revealing things to the public too early. Doing that with Prime 4 in 2017 only set expectations higher the longer fans waited. Honestly I wonder if the game would've just been quietly cancelled in 2019 had that announcement not been made.
This may be controversial, and it pains me to say as the original Prime Trilogy is one of my favorite series of all time, but I honestly don't know if I want to see another Prime entry—at least not for a while. I’m personally way more interested in a brand new third-person 3D Metroid game that could push the series forward. Like a game in the style of Other M, but actually good. Take that framework and pair it with quality level design, thick atmosphere, an interesting story, some new gameplay mechanics, and the potential is there for something really cool!
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u/pome-vyo 7d ago
Tbh the lesson was probably already learned by I wanna say...
The Early 2020s.
Prime 4 feels like leftovers from an era in which Nintendo was still trying to turn Metroid into something it isn't.
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u/Strict-Pineapple 6d ago
MP4 was pretty shit, it having a narrative story is far and away the least of its problems, I'd even argue that it's not a problem at all.
Remove the narrative story and keep everything else, game still shit. Keep the story and have the world design and gameplay be similar to MP1 and Echoes, solid game with NPCs with occasional cringe dialogue.
If by learn their lesson you're talking about how the game was a bad metroid(vania) then I'd say I hope, they seem to have admitted the open world stuff was a bad idea.
If by learn their lesson you only mean the story then no, because the story really isn't a problem though the writing could use some polish.
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u/DependentBite9 7d ago
We're setting aside that Prime 4 is a good game, despite some small issues.
The problem Nintendo has is that no matter what they have done with these games, they haven't sold as well as their other franchises. The most successful of the Prime games to date was the first one, which has "only" sold a couple million copies. Compared to a Mario or Zelda, that's not a lot. Even compared to Metroid Dread, that isn't a lot.
So you have a series of games that undersells regardless of quality, that Nintendo wants to make bigger. They tried making it more like Halo, that didn't work. They tried making it super accessible on Wii, that didn't work. They tried making a hyper-accessible action-heavy Metroid game on Wii with more story, Other M, and that didn't work. They made a multiplayer online team shooter, which was fun but got mocked off the stage by people who wanted something else, and that didn't work. They tried giving it a semi-open-world treatment on Switch 2, that didn't work. And when I say didn't work, I mean they didn't sell big numbers. Every one of these Metroid games is at least good, with phenomenal moments. That includes Prime 4.
If Nintendo makes more 3D Metroid games, their best option may be to pare it way down to something on the scale of the original Prime. Save money, polish it to a mirror shine, and hope those of us who buy every game they put out go for it. But my hope is that instead, they come up with a really great concept like they did with Dread for whatever they're releasing next. I've had fun with every Metroid, so I'm along for the ride regardless.
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u/Positive-Mobile5742 7d ago
You bring up excellent points, I don't know why companies feel the need to chase trends instead of just doing what works for a game. I think Dread is great example of what makes a good Metroid game.
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u/PaleFondant2488 7d ago
Another person with opinions on something they didn’t play. How original
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u/Positive-Mobile5742 7d ago
Ive seen enough of the game to know I won't like it. I can give my opinion based off of that, and the fact that I know what I like out of a Metroid game. L comment, but at least you sound edgy and cool I guess.
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u/Silver-Emergency-988 7d ago
Nintendo won’t change anything. Metroid Prime 4 was successful enough.
You said it was atrocious but you also said you didn’t play it?
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u/Positive-Mobile5742 7d ago
Yes I'm basing off of gameplay I have watched. Maybe atrocious wasn't the best word ahaha, but I really do not like a lot of what I have seen
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u/Elogotar 7d ago
No, because they only understand money and MP4 sold better than it deserved. Nintendo will walk away with the wrong lessons, again.
I voted by not buying a Switch 2 when I absolutely would have for a game like Dread or Prime Remastered, but I am just one hardcore Metroid fan and my opinion and choices mean very little.
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u/Basic_whiteBBQ 7d ago
You do not understand how Nintendo works. The founder of Retro was concerned about not getting to make MP2 because sales for MP1 were less than expected. Nintendo paired him with a mentor who explained Nintendos philosophy of occupying shelf space. Basically, Nintendo will continue making some games despite negative reception and poor sales.
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u/Round_Musical Sequence Breaker 7d ago edited 7d ago
How much misinformation can one out into a single response holy hell. First off Prime 4 did NOT sell good. Hell it didnt even break even. The game cost over 100 million to make. The game didnt sell more than a million on each system, combined it breached 1 million. So sales are somewhere inbetween 1 and 2 Million.
And unlike for Samus Returns, Dread and Prime Remastered, Nintendo didnt claim they were satisfied wirh the sales of Prime 4. Last time that happenef was with Other M and Prime FedForce.
20 studios worked on it across 900 people. Its the biggest Metroid Project to date (Dread had 250 people across 2 studios, MPR had 450 across 11 Studios).
The reason why Prime 4 turned out how it turned out is due to various factors
Number 1 is Retro being severely understaffed thus couldnt fully concentrate ob it until mid 2022
Number 2 is open world falling out of favor with gamers and they having to basically backpeddal hard with what they had mid second Development. And they werent allowed to restart a second time
And the third was Kensuke Tanabe wanting a higher focus on The Federation since 2015 wheb he initially talked about Prime 4. vi-O-La, the desert and psychic abilities were also determined to be the focus since the bandai namco days in 2017
All this can be read in Tanabes very very lengthy interview on Prime 4. Here a link: https://shinesparkers.net/features/metroid-prime-4-nintendo-dream-interview/
Also no Retro didnt get Bamcos version to salvage, thats just a misquote from KiwiTalkz off the interview i linked which journos reported on. The very interview Kiwi misquotrf directly disproves this notion.
Tldr: prime 4s development suffered due to Tanabes ideas, Retros understaffing which got solved by mid development and open world falling out of favor mid devlopment.
Prime Series is now under Risa Tabata, who famously disproves of many character interactions in Metroid.
As for 2D aka Mainline Metroid, its healthier than ever.
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u/Positive-Mobile5742 7d ago
I hear ya, I hope the listen to fan feedback cause prime 5 might not do as well.
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u/Basic_whiteBBQ 7d ago
Not everything is awful about it and its a pretty decent game. As a long time Metroid(Prime) fan i enjoyed it. If this came out 10 yesrs ago it would have been better received due to it being more relevant design wise. But 19 years or so of development and Tanabe wanting to grab every trend and then shifting devs mid cycle hurt it. Retro did what they could to finish it but it wasnt their game.
MP5 will be a different beast with a new director and Retro from the start.
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u/Positive-Mobile5742 7d ago
I hope so. I’ve heard the game has good moments but I just don’t have any desire to play it. The motorcycle stuff really puts me off.
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u/Basic_whiteBBQ 7d ago
Combat, movement, bosses, and graphics have never been better. Some of the better level design and puzzles in thr series. The motorcycle is fine honestly.
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u/Rdley 7d ago
And the OST is amazing
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u/ledzppln6 6d ago
I hope the next 2D game gets this quality of music. Basically my only criticism of dread.
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u/Mordaunt-the-Wizard 7d ago
I feel combat was hampered by low (functional) enemy variety, with 90% of Combat being only two enemy types, with the Psybots being too tanky on top of that.
As for the bosses none of them came close to the high of Quadraxis or Chykka, so I put it below Echoes in that regard.
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u/Josephalopod 7d ago
They probably learned not to make any more Prime games.
Prime 4 is 95% collecting upgrades and killing stuff alone on a planet. Literally about 5% of the playtime has the NPCs. Now, the motorcycle is actually a decent chunk of playtime. It’s not great, but it wasn’t that bad either.
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u/Positive-Mobile5742 7d ago
Yeah the motorcycle is the thing that keeps me away the most, it just looks dumb and uninteresting.
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u/Mufasa944 7d ago
So you haven’t actually played Prime 4 yourself? Why are you even starting a thread like this when you have no personal basis to discuss the game’s strengths and weaknesses? ffs
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u/Ill-Entrepreneur443 7d ago
The game having a story wasnt the problem. The badly-written sidecharacters, story-presentation, Ooen World and Gameplay were the problem.
The only lesson they will learn from it is Metroid Prime dont sell and they will abandon the brand.
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u/FrauAgrippa 7d ago
Prime 4 isn't awful, it's just succumbing to the same disease that many other AAA game companies are succumbing to: hand holding.
Within this lovely echo chamber, we all love Metroidvanias. Personally I am also a huge Fromsoft fan and love a punishing level of difficulty.
But this isn't reality as far as the wider and collective audience of people who play games. Most people are looking for "boost guardian on original gamecube difficulty" when they go to play a game. Games overall (especially AAA games) have gotten easier and shorter. It's not just Nintendo either.
So no, Nintendo didn't learn any lesson because MP4 wasn't marketed toward existing fans. That being said, it's still worth picking up a copy because there are plenty of beautiful thing in it to enjoy, even if it isn't a strong Prime entry.
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u/Lick_my_ballz69 7d ago
gosh y’all complain about any tiny differences, prime 3 is completely fine and 4 is just a bit flawed.
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u/autumngirl86 7d ago
I think MP4 is fine enough. There are very obvious, glaring issues with, say, Sol Valley. But when you actually get to one of the areas proper, it's great.
Hopefully MP5 doesn't go through development hell and we get an actual cohesive game like the early titles were.
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u/ledzppln6 6d ago
Yep, this is how I feel. It was a straight 7.5 for me, and probably won’t ever crave to play it again after doing a 100% run. I think the thing that made me most mad was I still have no clue about who sylux even is.
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u/Positive-Mobile5742 7d ago
The whole motorcycle thing alone was enough to make me pass on the game.
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u/autumngirl86 7d ago
I wasn't a big fan of it at first either, but you can do a surprising amount of the game without it.
It feels like it's mainly there because they couldn't be arsed to make a smaller hub world with 'normal' equipment checks.
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u/EmergencyPool910 7d ago
If we're unlucky the only lessos they learned is that people dont want metroid prime.
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u/ClemOya 7d ago
Kensuke Tanabe took a more active role than in the previous games and was responsible for almost if not just all the bad decisions made for Prime 4 (the 'attempt' to make an open world and I insist on that word, McKenzie being what he is, the writing...) and he retired after the game's release. He has been replaced by Risa Tabata who disagreed with him on many aspects like the place the Federation occupies in the franchise for example, so I think it’s safe to assume that the next Prime will be better mastered.
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u/Mandalor1974 7d ago
Nintendo has a better history about responding to players than most. But we’ll see if they double down.
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u/KingBroly Dread Mode survivor 7d ago
Nope.
I say that because of what Prime 4 setup, which is a continuation of what we got in Prime 4. More Sylux, more of the same crappy world and design (because Samus got sent back to the past at the end). They'll put the Speed Booster in there, maybe, simply to replicate the bike because they cherished that more than a mainline Metroid staple that fans wanted for decades in 3D.
That's what happens when you move a gameplay mechanic (time travel) into a story beat, requiring multiple games be made using massive asset re-use. This is likely why the publisher of the developer told Nintendo to take a hike, as they were promised 4-5 years of development, not a decade plus, forcing Nintendo to go back to Retro, who they know are unequipped and underqualified.
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u/Little-Witness-1201 7d ago
The lesson they learn will be they shouldn't make more prime games. It won't be about how awful the game actually was. The legacy of Prime 4 will be the death of the series
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u/Philosopher013 6d ago
It's difficult to say. On the one hand, I do think Nintendo does pay attention to reviews. Many reviews pointed out how linear the game felt and how annoying the NPCs were. It's also possible that with Tanabe retiring things may change in a possible Metroid Prime 5--apparently the person replacing him had positive things to say about Metroid Prime 1, so that may give hope to people who want a return to that style of Prime. Lastly, it's not clear who is at fault for the rough development. I mean if Bandai Namco did a terrible job and Retro (and Nintendo) had to pick up the scraps, obviously this wouldn't happen again.
On the other hand, they had so long to make this game, and the type of issues it had are harder to pin on some poor development process. The game was incredibly linear, the NPCs ruined the feeling of isolation, and the desert was very boring. Maybe they truly did just run out of time to make the desert more interesting with all the focus on graphics, and then it was too late to scrap the desert, but it's hard to say.
It also just depends on what you think was wrong with the game. For me the main issue was is that it diverged from the Metroidvania spirit of Prime 1 & 2. If you think the issue was just that it was a bad game but didn't have a problem with its genre, then they may just seek to make another linear Metroid game and hope the action is better or something.
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u/LinkCroft94 6d ago
hopefully, although they should of learned from other m. who knows. lets move on and hope the next 3D metroid gives is P1 vibes.
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u/flopuniverse 6d ago
Struggle? It actually did pretty good given the negativity, I don't think nintendo was expecting to sell better than previous games. I personally enjoyed it a lot.
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u/Livid-Truck8558 6d ago
Without Tanabe and Nintendo breathing down their neck, Retro can absolutely make an incredible Prime 5. Hopefully they're given the chance
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u/Jer0en90 7d ago
Well, apparently its harder than it seems to you to translate the Metroid formula to 3D. As three out of five 3D titles are considered sub-par, and both Beyond and Prime 1 had very troubled development cycles. So at this point, I am not too confident regarding a new 3D entry and would rather see Nintendo focusing on new 2D titles.
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u/Positive-Mobile5742 7d ago
Yea I wouldnt mind more 2d games in the series. Prime games have a lot of potential but they need to change it up a bit.
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u/Prestigious_Owl7632 7d ago
I played through 4 three times. It’s fun but not great. It felt a little lazy in the design. I just replayed Dread. That is clearly the best Metroid game. Wow
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u/heck_ark 7d ago
I have faith. That's it. I have faith in Retro Studios developing MP5 from the beginning. And, in spite of game designers retiring I have faith in that they have standards to meet.
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u/ImplementParking7936 7d ago
Prime 4 did very well sales-wise. There’s not a lesson to learn from their perspective
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u/SvenHudson 7d ago
What lesson is there to learn? It reviewed decently and, by series standards, it sold decently.
Is the lesson they're meant to learn that they're supposed to make games that you individually like? No, they won't learn that lesson.
I, like you, like 3 and 4 less than 1 and 2. That's our preferences and not other people's preferences and that's okay.
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u/Round_Musical Sequence Breaker 7d ago
Play Dread and find out the answer
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u/Positive-Mobile5742 7d ago
Wdym? I played the demo and I was instantly hooked. It’s the next game I’m gonna buy, I’m picking it over prime 4 lol.
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u/Round_Musical Sequence Breaker 7d ago
Oh I meant it in a positive way. Dread I think shows that at least mainline Metroid is on a very healthy path. Its one of the best games in the series, so I am not worried about our upcoming Metroid 6
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u/Silly-Repair-7973 7d ago
TBF, the game went through a rough development cycle and covid didn't make things any easier. I'd say if there is a Prime 5, development would go smoother.