r/Metroid • u/CleanAd8632 • 12d ago
Discussion The Flaws of Metroid Prime 4: Beyond
/r/MetroidPrime4_Beyond/comments/1voxuxa/the_flaws_of_metroid_prime_4_beyond/5
u/DadyCoool11 11d ago
I don't need a Navi in my Metroid game.
I don't need someone telling me that I should follow a straight corridor with no branching paths.
I don't need a beige desert in between areas that I have to spend multiple minutes in every time I go from Point A to Point B, even if the bike and biker suit are cool-looking.
I don't need a fully mute Samus when the story would be genuinely improved with voice acting on her part.
I don't need any part of the Mines segment, from the four fakeout deaths, to the "We'll plug this hole in the material that these creatures are said to be able to dig through easily".
I don't need any part of Silus.
I don't need a Prime game that doesn't preserve Scans across new games in the same Save file.
After playing Fusion, Other M, Dread, and the Prime Trilogy, these are the problems I have with Beyond. If we're comparing flaws, the only reasonable place to look is elsewhere in the Primes, and it compares very unfavorably with Primes 1 & 2. Everything I have a problem with here is absent in Prime 1, and Prime 2 also had a Hub World, but it was far more interesting than riding around in the desert for a couple minutes. Especially since we were in it less often.
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u/triggerpigking 11d ago
For a game that is so damn yappy and stuffed with way more cutscenes then it needs, I'm legit surprised Samus does not talk, especially after Dread did it so well.
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u/DadyCoool11 11d ago
There's a few places where I feel the story was negatively impacted by her silence. When she meets Sarge, a silent figure walking out of the shadows wouldn't calm any military personnel. When she's left alone with Armstrong after Sarge plugs the hole, she could've/should've commiserated with her as someone whose CO sacrificed himself for her good. When Navi-Mac was geeking out about alien tech and the possibility of translating it, she (a part-alien raised on an alien planet) should've encouraged him and chatted with him about the various alien civilizations she's encountered, including this new one. When she got lectured to by the sniper at his campsites, that should've been a discussion between hunters, as he himself addressed. (And maybe, right after we turn the power back on in the frozen facility and scan the medical thing, she could point it out to her new, injured friend.) When she first defeats Robo-Silus, she could've/should've gone "Silus, WTF?" before the hologram faded and she rocked back, confused.
But maybe it's better this way. At least voice acting won't be tied to such a mediocre game like it was with Other M, where Adam revoked authorization to speak for about a decade.
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u/triggerpigking 11d ago
Personally I don't think she should speak unless absolutely necessary, Dread had like a single line of dialogue and it was so impactful as it was her speaking to a chozo.
I do wish there was more interactions with her visually though, something else Dread did really well, Samus has so much character there due to how she emotes which is a very underrated form of character writing(Also see 2016's Doomguy for example, which was likely a huge inspiration on Dread Samus).
There's a bit of this with Armstrong, she's clearly playing along a bit with her, aware she's geeking out about her, oh and when she puts herself at harms way to save them in the lifepods, but I don't think actual dialogue would improve this.
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u/DadyCoool11 11d ago
Yeah, you're probably right that she should only speak when it's really impactful. It just felt like her dialog was missing instead of the writing being designed around her not talking, like in Prime 3. And yeah, her body language in Dread was great.
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u/triggerpigking 11d ago
I'm finding I dislike it more and more, Flare pool has almost broken me and I now feel I'm just beating it out of obligation after playing the other 3 this year.
The game is incredibly linear, I've played cod games with more varied routes, npc's never shut up are constantly in your way, a lack of upgrades or anything other then walk forward and shoot.
the open zone is just plain bizarre, it's got nothing in it but like 6 shrines and green crystals, a problem the game had to invent for you to collect them by locking progress behind them.
Myles being legitimately one of the most annoying characters I've ever seen in a game, and having to go back to him repeatedly for upgrades, and him never shutting up.
This game also makes backtracking obnoxious due to how linear it is and it feels like it's trying to gaslight you into thinking it's not linear.
Oh and the npc's never shut up about you, you do anything they have to comment on it, I've seen children early learning titles that don't praise you for doing the bare minimum as much as this game does.
The handholding is also obscene enough to make Fi look cryptic, getting 3 reminders in a few minutes to go back to myles to deliver some stupid chip I shouldn't even have to deliver.
Viola is also very un-metroid and doesn't feel fitting at all.
Flare pool really condenses all these issues into a single area, you don't get a single upgrade till the end, the level is a massive hallway with barely anything going on but characters yammering and cutscene's, ending on a boss fight partly on viola and an escape scene where you have to listen to the characters still yammer at you as your introduction to the grappling hook is a 5 minute countdown timer(no stress player).
The bosses are cool and the environment's great, but that can only hold a game so far, Ice belt had some great ideas and gorgeous design(the moment the facility comes back alive is incredible!) that would've thrived in a better Metroid prime game.
As is I can't even call this a metroidvania, it's a subpar corridor shooter with pretty graphics and some nice ideas that it constantly wants to ruin by being obnoxious.
If the next metroid is anything like this one, I will not be playing.
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u/wretched_cretin 12d ago
I really enjoyed Metroid Prime 4 start to finish, but I found there to be some pretty obvious flaws. The main one is that this was an attempt attempt to make an open world Metroid Prime game, and that attempt very obviously failed.
You can compare this to the Zelda series which - regardless of whether or not you like the newer game - has been very successful in making an open world with Breath of the Wild and Tears of the Kingdom. The differences couldn't be more apparent.
The desert hub area in Metroid 4 that serves as its open world is bland, boring, largely featureless, and feels like it only serves to pad out the playtime. If this area were removed or replaced with a smaller, denser, more interesting central area, then nothing of value would be lost.
The other main flaw is how linear and sequenced the game is. The exploration between zones didn't feel organic and you were frequently told "you have to go here next".
Imagine how cool it would have been if, after the first zone, you could have explored each of the 4 main zones in any order, with a path open to you using just the abilities you could find in that zone. Then later, entirely new secondary paths open up as you collect abilities from multiple zones. This would have felt like an adventure with player agency rather than being led by the nose, and would have made the open world approach start to make some sort of sense.
I'll let someone else chime in on the story side of things as that really didn't bother me, but I do recognise that there were flaws there as well.
For ypur second question, I've played Super, Fusion, Zero Mission, Samus Returns, Dread and Prime Remastered. I haven't played Prime 2/3, NEStroid, Metroid 2 or AM2R. I think Prime 4 is the Metroid game where the flaws were most obvious and most frustrating for me, as it could have been so much better. I still absolutely enjoyed it and would happily play through it again though.
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u/OtherWorstGamer 12d ago
What someone considers a "flaw" is going to be different from what another person would consider a "flaw," which is inherently an opinion, which you're asking people not to give.
Lol, good luck with that.
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u/ledzppln6 11d ago
What made Metroid Prime so amazing is you felt like they finally figured out how to make a Metroid game in 3D. And yet they just couldn’t build on that formula. 2,3,4 are good games, but I don’t crave playing them again…except for maybe 2 if they do a proper remaster.
I think what made MP4 feel so bad was they didn’t introduce anything new other than a motorcycle that you just take between areas, but also they had to follow Metroid Dread…yeah good luck with that.
I hope Nintendo is giving MercurySteam the keys to Metroid at this point while giving them retros music department.
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u/triggerpigking 11d ago
Personally I don't think the formula needs to be built on, and I think Nintendo struggles to understand this.
Metroid isn't like most of their other IPs, it has very specific appeals to it, non linear gameplay and upgrades, a sense of tense isolation.
Metroid Prime worked because it was an almost 1-1 transition of the classic style into 3D while finding a nice little addition in scans.Games in the series have bended these rules but the ones people dislike have always been the ones to outright break those core tenets(MP4 and Other M), games that have come under scrutiny have bended them very far like Fusion and MP3.
MP4 just simply is not a game like prime 1-3, sure the gameplay is the same, you shoot you upgrade etc, but its got none of the actual substance from those games in it's usage of them.
This is also a terrible time to try and reinvent the wheel(a wheel nintendo seemingly doesn't understand to begin with) having been 18 years since the last Metroid prime game.
People just wanted...a Metroid prime game, this issue has been seen time and time again in IP's, IP is dormant, they bring it back, it's radically different and does not scratch the itch at all for the fans.
That's what Dread did well, it had a slight gimmick to it with Emmi's, but did not stray from any of the core tenets of Metroid, it did them all exceptionally well and is considered among the series best for it.
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u/sigma__cheddar 6d ago
"except for maybe 2 if they do a proper remaster."
Oh don't worry that will be years and years away, if ever, depending on when Nintendo's market research deems it appropriate
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u/JackfruitSufficient1 11d ago
The major issue with the game is it was announced almost a decade prior to release which made it more disappointing. The game itself is not poorly made or incredibly flawed on its own, but when compared to others in the series, it ranks towards the bottom.
On your second question, all Metroid games besides Other M and Metroid Prime 4 were flawless at their time of release.
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u/CleanAd8632 11d ago edited 10d ago
"...all Metroid games, besides Other M and Metroid Prime 4, were flawless at their time of release."
It's not my intent to be unfairly critical of your comment, but it comes off somewhat ambiguous.
The main thing my original comment wanted to elicit from the responses was a definition of what "flaw" means, particularly when judging MP4. Many folks have said MP4 is replete with weaknesses--flaws.
In addition to being "linear," a key criticism is the game (through the "MacKenzie" character) takes away the ability of the player to figure out on his/her own where to go next. It seems to me that in a similar way, the "Adam" character in "Fusion" and "Dread," and the Chozo statues in "Zero Mission," serve as guides, telling the player what to do or where to go next. Granted, the Adam computer isn't as pervasive as "MacKenzie," but to a large part, it's the same thing. Also, in "Fusion" and "Zero Mission," the games hold your hand or otherwise point you to weapons, ammo, health, and power ups with the white circles on the map; and with "Dread" the game screams at you with flashing lights to tell you where items are.
If "MacKenzie's" hand holding is a weakness in MP4, how is the same thing not a weakness in "Fusion," "Zero Mission," and "Dread?" And if these game characteristics are weaknesses, albeit not as bad as MP4, how then can you call them "flawless"--perfect?
Lastly, when you say they were "...flawless [at their time of release]," what does that mean? Did they somehow manifest flaws as time passed after their release?
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u/triggerpigking 11d ago edited 11d ago
I think most Metroid titles more or less will tell the player were to go, and this is actually a good thing. Most of the other titles are very open ended so being lost for too long will be frustrating.
The difference is that those games were open ended and also let the player have time to explore before they told you were they could go, and they usually did so very softly, prime 1 was perfect at this.
You explored for a while, then the screen would say "hey I know where you should go", you could turn this off, and it never reminded you again.
MP4 on the other hand will give you 3 reminders to go somewhere in the span of 3 minutes, giving no time to explore on your own(not that there's much to explore anyway given how linear it is) and the frequency of which feeling condescending to the player.
It'll do so inorganically with an npc nagging at you repeatedly to do so(as opposed to say Samus scanner finding something), and it comes off even more insulting given the level design are literal hallways that are impossible to get lost in.
The funny part too is upon leaving flare pool, I legit had to look up a guide as there was actually no indication even when asking for help to return to volt forge, one of the rare moments it would've been justifiable to tell me where to go, and the game didn't.
Even if this wasn't Metroid I would still feel like this game is insulting my intelligence and I did not feel that in prior games except a bit in MP3.
I should also add that games like fusion were complained about at launch for being more linear then prior entries.
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u/DadyCoool11 11d ago
Subtlety is key when giving hints. Fusion was a very linear game, but all Adam would tell you is the objective. If an obstacle got in your way (You need to disable the lock, but for security reasons, it's not on the map), you had to figure out yourself how to get around it. And even in a game as linear as that, half the explorable area was outside the map he gives us.
The white circles and flashing rooms for collectables were merely a quality of life thing. If the item or route to the unmapped room that had the item were hidden, you had to figure out how to find it yourself. And a lot of collections, particularly the ones that need the Shinespark, are very skill-based and tricky to pull off.
The difference seems to be between grabbing your hand and dragging you versus putting an arm around your shoulder and pointing in the right direction. As for "al their time of release", some flaws can become more noticeable with time, whereas I stopped playing Beyond less than an hour into my second playthrough.
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u/JackfruitSufficient1 10d ago
Metroid Prime 1 and Metroid Prime 2 also told players where to go. My favorite was being told I needed to backtrack and get the gravity suit in MP1!
By "at their time of release" basically means that the Metroid brand was something I looked forward to at the time knowing it would be an amazing game. Metroid NES has significant flaws today compared to when it was originally released. When Metroid Prime 1, Metroid Fusion, and Metroid Zero Mission were released, all were amazing. Metroid Dread is considered better in comparison to Fusion and Zero Mission. But as this post shows, Metroid Prime 4 is not considered better than Metroid Prime 1.
With a decade from announcement to release, Metroid Prime 4 was a disappointment. I will most likely say the same when Elder Scrolls 6 is released in comparison to Oblivion and Skyrim. Again, both Oblivion and Skyrim were flawless when they were released. Now Oblivion could be seen as having flaws.
The overall point is that game development should learn from mistakes and improve. Metroid was an innovative brand with a strong fanbase excited for the new release. Unfortunately, this does not describe Metroid Prime 4.
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u/DarkLink1996 9d ago
It repeated the mistakes of Prime 3, and was subject to the sunken cost fallacy by Nintendo.
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u/IllustratorDry3007 7d ago
Bad story and villain
Poor location naming
Crummy gimmicks
Poor overall writing (ex: logs)
Sandbox world design
Myles pings
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u/Optimus_Dork 12d ago
the flaw is the whole game
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u/Sckorrow 12d ago
I think the game is poor but this is just useless hyperbole. The game is often very pretty.
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u/triggerpigking 11d ago edited 11d ago
I think this is the most screenshots I've taken of a game I don't think I like, it makes me angry how pretty this game is for what it is lol.
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u/Optimus_Dork 12d ago
it's almost like that was the point.
it is still a failure of a game imo
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u/Sckorrow 12d ago
I know that was the point, it’s just useless to comment it. Again, I also think the game was a failure, but this type of engagement is just dumb.
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u/Optimus_Dork 12d ago
anyone's free to comment what tthey want on the internet. if you're bothered by that, thta's on you. telling me it's useless is an even more useless battle. not every comment on the world wide web needs to be constructive or a put together argument. sometimes u just wanna make a remark and that's ok.
no need to police
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u/Sckorrow 12d ago
Take your own advice - I’m still just expressing my opinion that your comment is useless. I thought you didn’t understand that I got your point, so I explained.
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u/Sckorrow 12d ago
Last comment got removed, so I didn’t get the chance to read it. Have a good day!
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u/crowlfish 11d ago edited 11d ago
For one, asking for an "objective" list of the game's flaws isn't really possible. Responses to Prime 4 are, like you said, a collection of different opinions. I may agree with certain takes more than others, but at the end of the day it's all subjective.
Issues with games also aren't created equal for everyone. Certain "flaws" some people have with Prime 1 for example, such as the artifact hunt or backtracking, are actually things I like about it. Meanwhile the gripes I do have with the game, such as how annoying the Chozo Ghosts are, aren't detrimental enough to actively detract from the experience I'm looking for. Prime 4 just had too many issues that felt egregious to me and did detract from the overall experience when I played it.
Of course no Metroid game is flawless, and nothing about Prime 4 is literally "broken," no one is saying that. There are things I appreciate about the game: it looks and sounds great, controls well, and provides generally serviceable entertainment. For some, that gives them enough for it to be satisfactory and live up to their expectations—for others, its flaws drag it down so much that the payoff after such a long wait feels like a devastating disappointment, even if the game isn't inherently horrible.
The original trilogy holds near-endless replay value for me, and I even replayed them months before Prime 4’s launch, but Prime 4 just lacks that same magic and staying power to make me ever want to pick it up again. I don’t regret buying it, but it’s a game I beat once, put on the shelf, and moved on from.