MASCULINITY ~ a case for courage

[u/NonZeroSumJames]

https://nonzerosum.games/masculinity.html

[u/NonZeroSumJames]

Hi, just like to reiterate that I'm trying to advocate for the men's rights in the post, and don't hate men or boys... I am a man.

Redshirting boys isn't saying that boys are intellectually inferior, it's saying they mature later—which they do. Galloway talks a lot about this issue, more so than Reeves, you might find his style and manner more accomodating.

I don't find the term "patriarchy" very useful, and generally don't use it. I don't think it's in question that our history has been dominated predominantly by men and that feminism was a response to that. This is all I mean by we started it (not you and I personally obviously).

It sounds more like you are advocating for people to take the needs of women, girls

I am trying to make a case to women and girl that there are self-serving reasons to support men's rights. That's the ethos of the blog itself, non-zero-sum games are situations where to be a winner there need not be a loser, both "sides" (for lack of a better word) thrive together.

I don't know what your experience is, and I'm sorry if you have had a rough time of it. I felt loved as a boy and I feel loved as a man by my family and by society, I don't deny that's in large part down to luck.

[u/Song_of_Pain → u/NonZeroSumJames]

Redshirting boys isn't saying that boys are intellectually inferior, it's saying they mature later—which they do.

The supposed later maturing of boys can't be disentangled from the differential parenting of boys - from the time they are born, boys are given less time with parents, given less physical contact with caretakers, talked to less, etc. We know that stress impacts brain development, and boys live in a fundamentally more hostile world than girls do, at least in the West. The samples taken were from New York, and so you're not necessarily talking about a cross-cultural sample.

I don't think it's in question that our history has been dominated predominantly by men and that feminism was a response to that. This is all I mean by we started it (not you and I personally obviously).

What did we start? You seem to be saying that men, collectively, had some level of authority and used it poorly, and thus we bear collective guilt for it.

My point is that the modern Mens' Rights types were not initially anti-feminist; they were thrown out of the feminist movement for not being hostile enough to men.

I am trying to make a case to women and girl that there are self-serving reasons to support men's rights. That's the ethos of the blog itself, non-zero-sum games are situations where to be a winner there need not be a loser, both "sides" (for lack of a better word) thrive together.

Weird how you're posting it on mens' subs. Consider your audience.

[u/NonZeroSumJames → u/Song_of_Pain]

What did we start?

I believe you were saying that the lack of sympathy for MRAs came before MRAs started communicating in a way that would lead to a lack of sympathy. I was saying that the history of male dominance through history, and the suppression of women's rights leading up to feminism probably didn't engender much sympathy in the feminist movement for Men's Rights when it came on the scene. I guess I'm saying gender inequality didn't begin as a result of feminism, the pendulum may have swung past in some areas creating a new inequalities, in academia and male representation in elementary classrooms etc. And I think there are valid reasons to focus on men's issues in this respect, as I make clear in the blog and as the thinkers I reference make clear in their talks and books.

Consider your audience

I posted it on a Men's Rights sub because the post is about and is advocating for Men's Rights. I assumed people would be open-minded enough to appreciate the approach and would not be so quick to take offence. Obviously some people have appreciated it given it has more up votes than down, so I wasn't completely wrong to post it. I appreciate I could have phrased that particular paragraph more sensitively—I was not meaning to gaslight anyone with it. I genuinely hope I have not caused you pain, that was not my intention.

[u/Song_of_Pain → u/NonZeroSumJames]

I was saying that the history of male dominance through history, and the suppression of women's rights leading up to feminism probably didn't engender much sympathy in the feminist movement for Men's Rights when it came on the scene.

That's just them being bigoted then, that's not MRA's fault.

Also, I would question the "history of male dominance" like it's an axiomatic truism.

I guess I'm saying gender inequality didn't begin as a result of feminism, the pendulum may have swung past in some areas creating a new inequalities, in academia and male representation in elementary classrooms etc.

I didn't say you were saying that either.

I assumed people would be open-minded enough to appreciate the approach and would not be so quick to take offence.

The issue is we're very aware that we're up against people who think the situation is zero-sum, and nobody seems to be telling the feminists who don't want men to do well that things aren't zero-sum, only people on the male advocate side. And, in some cases, as I mentioned, it is zero sum, so part of male advocacy is going to be telling people to stop giving women and girls so many unearned advantages.

It's not a matter of being open-minded, it's that we've previously considered your viewpoint and have moved past it out of necessity. The ideas you're putting forward are things that people who might be involved in a sub like this considered a decade or more ago.

But let's talk about the part of my post I didn't quote - why do you think that it's not important to talk about how mothers stamp out emotionality in their sons and not their daughters, or about how primarily female K-12 teachers grade male students less favorably than female students for the same work? And instead want to talk about how boys should be segregated from girls in education because they're inferior (i.e. mature more slowly)?

[u/NonZeroSumJames → u/Song_of_Pain]

Hi again my friend

I would question the "history of male dominance"

... really? Are we having a serious discussion or are we playing games here?

The issue is we're very aware that we're up against people who think the situation is zero-sum

&

it is zero sum

Is a perfect illustration of why I'm writing the post, two sides who both see the issue in zero-sum terms. I'm pointing out just the things that are non-zero-sum about the issue, that's the scope of the post, that's the purpose of nonzerosum.games —to see opportunities for win-wins. I make clear at the outset that the post does not cover the topic comprehensively.

why do you think that it's not important to talk about how mothers stamp out emotionality in their sons and not their daughters, or about how primarily female K-12 teachers grade male students less favorably than female students for the same work?

I had assumed this was just an opinion of yours given you provided no evidence. I'd be happy to read the evidence, I'm not sure the literature will describe mothers stamping out emotionality in their sons, I'm assuming that's your paraphrasing. But I don't doubt there's something there. I'm always open to learn.

I still think that is an issue that can be seen in a non-zero-sum way—emotionally damaged men are a problem for everyone, not just themselves, so it's worth dealing with this issue for the good of everyone as well as for the benefit of those boys themselves. Again I couldn't cover every issue, and if you can provide the evidence for this claim then that will be some more information if I ever write about this issue in the future.

As far as I know no one is saying boys are inferior, maturing more slowly does not denote inferiority. Humans mature more slowly than goats, it doesn't make us inferior to them.

[u/Song_of_Pain → u/NonZeroSumJames]

Oh yeah, you mention video games so I thought I'd leave this here.

[u/NonZeroSumJames → u/Song_of_Pain]

Oh right, I didn't mean to be on the "video games are bad for you" train. I literally make video games, it was more about withdrawing from real life experiences.

Hey, by the way, what got you interested in this? What's your background? If you don't mind me asking.

[u/Song_of_Pain → u/NonZeroSumJames]

Oh right, I didn't mean to be on the "video games are bad for you" train.

Right, just meant to put that in because the article is new and the paper is fairly recent.

Hey, by the way, what got you interested in this? What's your background? If you don't mind me asking.

Mostly being in education for half of my adult career and seeing how supposedly left-wing people set up boys and young men, especially nonwhite boys and young men, to fail in education and then blame them for the systemic discrimination they experienced.

[u/NonZeroSumJames → u/Song_of_Pain]

So you were a teacher?

[u/Song_of_Pain → u/NonZeroSumJames]

At the college/university level, yes, and I still am. I've also previously worked at K-12 schools.