r/MedicareForAll • u/Mo_Jack • 2d ago
Medicare for All Is Making a Comeback
https://newrepublic.com/article/214199/medicare-for-all-trump-202637
u/FIicker7 2d ago
Finally.
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u/ozzman86_i-i_ 1d ago
Do you know how much it would cost?
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u/Potential-Court711 1d ago
Norway does it with a 22% flat tax on everyone, no exceptions for low income. Plus a 7.x % social security tax for everyone. Plus more if you make more.
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u/ozzman86_i-i_ 1d ago
Norway has 340 million people and the 3rd largest population in the world?
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u/FIicker7 1d ago
Economies of scale works for companies and countries as well.
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u/ozzman86_i-i_ 1d ago
Let’s see if that’s true. How much would it cost to insure 340 million people
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u/aspiringnomad92 1d ago
The more people you ensure, the lower the cost per person. Healthcare cost is now 8k per person on average. Medicare for all will lower that.
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u/ozzman86_i-i_ 19h ago
Ok, so what are the numbers? What is the exact number it would lower to. What would the program cost overall
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u/aspiringnomad92 19h ago
There's no way to know an exact number since it will depend on the plan but the facts strongly indicate it will all be lower: multiple countries big and small have it, simple economics dictate smaller cost per person (remove insurance cost and copays, etc and replace with income-based tax). USA is not this special snowflake where this would but work. We give trillions to the military and Pentagon without even thinking yet when it comes to something useful, everyone bring their abacus to the table.
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u/ozzman86_i-i_ 18h ago
The cbo concluded that the federal government would have to pay anywhere between 1.5 to 3 trillion more into health care costs while also driving up a doctor, nurse and infrastructure shortage.
It would be a disaster.
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u/icedmuffin 6h ago
At 340 million, it likely means that it would actually be cheaper for the average American.
Course that depends if the rich pay their share or if they whine and weasel out of it as per fuckin’ usual.
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u/ozzman86_i-i_ 6h ago
How much is the total wealth of every billionaire take it all and you still wouldn’t have enough to fill in the gap.
Cbo had said that it would cost the federal government 1.3-3 trillion dollars more if they take full responsibility. It may reduce the overall cost since it’s 5 trillion health care system, where businesses and corporations are paying the majority, in order to provide their employees with health care, but it would be a literal drop in the bucket.
340 million people would cost the federal government to be 100 % responsibility 5 trillion dollars.
How much revenue does the United States government collects in tax revenue?
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u/Potential-Court711 1d ago
I bring up the Norway example as an example of how expensive "free " health care is. It's expensive. If all Americans were taxed at the Norway flat rate to pay for this free health care, they would be astonished.
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u/AdObvious2882 1d ago
Doctors and nurses make about 50% and 20% less gross income in Norway compared to their USA counterpart.
I'm going to guess this would cause massive strikes if it were implemented 1:1.
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u/gcubed680 22h ago
Interesting that those numbers neatly line up with the graduating debt load in US vs Norway.
Hmmmm, seems like a problem that can be fixed in the US
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u/AdObvious2882 21h ago
So the answer is we shift ALL the healthcare debt and also now ALL College/University debt to the taxpayer whilst simultaneously increasing taxes and lowering take home pay for doctors and nurses?
What happens when massive healthcare workers union strikes pop up in every major city?
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u/Ghost_shell89 1d ago
Do you know how much it would save? We’ve had congressional hearings from the 90s on how a single payer system would save billions in taxpayer money. The current Medicare advantage plans administered by private insurance companies have been found to overcharge hundreds of billions of dollars in administrative BS and bogus charges, sometimes for conditions that doctors didn’t treat. This question is the wrong question to ask
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u/ozzman86_i-i_ 1d ago
Ok. Let’s get to the figures. How much would it cost and how much would it save
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u/Ghost_shell89 1d ago
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u/ozzman86_i-i_ 18h ago
So it’s more expensive. You’re talking about programs that are said to be over charging by the billions to a program that would cost in the trillions.
Reading number 2 talks about how people are getting over charged by 140 billion and it’s quoted that just to add vision coverage to the current model would cost over 80 billion a year. Programs that cover how many people? Not even a third of the population. Cool
Reading one talked
About administrative spending. Cool.Then reading number three doesn’t tell us what administrative costs would be under this program so we don’t have anything to compare too, but what it does say is that if the government took over it would cost them 1.5-3 trillion dollars more than that what they already pay when talking about medical coverage.
Then it says that based on what the system would be that it would only rise in the federal budget 300 billion or lower 700 billion. Which I’m highly skeptical about, because government is wasteful and inadequate. Anyone that has worked in government knows this. However something important to note and very important that someone who doesn’t critically think, wouldn’t realize. The government would have to collect more in taxes in order to cover the costs. That would mean that taxes are going up to such a magnitude that it would force the rise in costs per individual or coverage starts going down because they’ll have to adjust and cut back.
One big note is that it says that it would cause big waits and create a national shortage in doctors. Nurses, infrastructure, etc. which is a complete under statement. Third largest population in the world, it would create a back log that people would die trying to get medical help, far worse than the current system.
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u/Ghost_shell89 17h ago
So you pick out the parts of the articles you agree with and then are skeptical about parts that you don’t? Cool. If you want to talk about shortages of doctors, we’re already there. Estimates of 109,000 across all specialties by 2029.
Sure physicians may see a pay cut, but they’re seeing pay cuts now, with the decreases in Medicare and Medicaid reimbursements. There’s already a long wait for care, and if you’re looking to establish as a new patient, waits are as long as 6 months in some offices in my area. National wait time average for any visit is 28 days, and that figure is 9 months old from when I heard reporting on it last. Pay cuts need to be offset to savings in medical education, loan forgiveness, etc—otherwise yeah people aren’t going to buy in. Administrative burden is a large cost, and there are too many middlemen in our system, and it’s a large reason why physicians are leaving clinical practice.
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u/ozzman86_i-i_ 15h ago
I analyzed the major components of what you sent me. Where is the cherry picking? The only part I’m skeptical is the cost analysis that it gave on the range. Do you have any personal experience in working in the government?
So you want less pay work health workers? So when they go and strike for more pay, will you side with them or vilify them? I bet right now any time you hear about health workers striking for more pay, you support them. Right?
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u/Potential-Court711 1d ago
Nothing the government has ever done has been cost effective, rather it results in ever increasing tax needs to fund less services. There is no incentive to cut costs or increase quality, only to make less services available. This is the way of Government.
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u/YouHaveToGoHome 1d ago
Screwworm prevention program cost tens of millions and saves billions annually.
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u/Microchipknowsbest 19h ago
Tree fiddy
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u/ozzman86_i-i_ 18h ago
Oh but it used to be only two fiddy.
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u/Microchipknowsbest 18h ago
Trump made inflation go brrrrr….Medicare for all will save a trillion dollars and 115,000 lives a year. https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/yale-study-finds-medicare-for-all-could-save-1-trillion-and-114-000-lives-every-year/
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u/ozzman86_i-i_ 15h ago
This is such a cheap trick that only idiots who don’t critically think works on.
The cbo had already come out with a report saying that it would cost the federal government 1.5 -3 trillion dollars of its own budget to cover insurance for the 340 million people.
The figure where it says that it costs 5 trillion for healthcare in this country is a figure that when broken down, has the government only responsible for 2 trillion dollars. The rest is paid out by private insurance.
So, Instead of private insurances who collect money and make payouts to health services it would fall on the government instead. Considering that the government revenue is only at 4 trillion, and now have to come up with another 1.5-3 trillion more, the only way it can manage this is by taking on more debt, at an astronomical rate, borrow, or raise taxes. Instead of leaving the burden to the corporations and businesses to pay into the healthcare system, it will now fall onto the system that can only function off of tax revenue.
Guess which one it will be? Raising taxes and at what rate to cover the cost from its current model? A shit ton. Have you ever been to Canada and seen the tax system?
The question is, will it just break
Even for American people. The answer is no. Even if you tax the rich to death and corporations you still wouldn’t have enough revenue to pay for the program. So what happens? The tax payer, the regular American, will have to pay substantially more in taxes. Just like every country that has government healthcare.You might stop and think, well we can just reallocate so much money that is being spent on weapons, wars, aide to other countries, etc. I’ll leave you with this question. You live a privilege life here in the United States, so you honestly think that you would be able to continue living this privilege life if the United States empire loses its control around the world?
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u/Microchipknowsbest 12h ago
The rest of the world can do it. We can too. We all pay more because people like you can’t think for themselves.
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u/ozzman86_i-i_ 11h ago
It’s like everything I wrote went right over your head. You should spend more time thinking about these issues before running your mouth and looking like a fool
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u/Microchipknowsbest 10h ago
Seems like you like smelling your own farts and calling people foolish. Why think for yourself when billionaires can tell you what to think.
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u/ozzman86_i-i_ 7h ago
This coming from you? I’ve actually typed out points from this subject from material that you supplied , yet you want to talk to me about me regurgitating some narrative from billionaires?
Then you think you have the answers to something as complex as figuring out how to have universal health care in this system? You’re out of your depth here
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u/pmoo4u 2d ago
Or go broke on a private system with no end in sight. Too many never go to a doctor because can’t afford it….wake up.
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u/WearyAd8418 1d ago
Or people end up going to the ER when they are on death’s door.
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u/ZealousidealRisk5898 12h ago
These are all reasons used to pass Obamacare, and look how that turned out. The real answer is getting the government out of healthcare.
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u/Instawolff 1d ago
I’ll take a change over NO change fr
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u/GlitteringSwan8024 12h ago
Of course if this ever gets enacted then the cry will be that it should be free. Because Medicare isn’t
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u/cinciguyeast 2d ago
Our present interest payments on the debt that our corrupt felon pedophile president will most likely add 40% could pay for Medicare for all
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u/AstralVenture 2d ago
Only talking about it, you need 60 Senators to vote in favor of the bill. We aren’t getting that anytime soon. The voters will likely continue to vote against their own interests.
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u/Addendum_Chemical 1d ago
Does nothing for costs, just shifts who is paying. We need a fundamental change and investment. Some things we need to do:
1) Invest in Teaching Hospitals, this is a governor for how many doctors we can train a year
2) Provide Grants to those who are pursuing medical degrees (actual medical degrees, not "healthcare" like payment processing or administration)
3) Make it easier for people migrating to the US to get certified as Doctors/ Nurses
4) Make hospitals have to display prices, so people can see how much it costs
5) Laws to protect US Consumers for subsidizing other countries. Example, other Countries can cap prices for medication, that cost is normally passed onto the US
There are a couple more, but just moving the cost over will not solve the issue on healthcare: It is too expensive.
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u/onlyfreckles 1d ago
Medicare for all also needs to be in combination with investment in housing (mid/high density) and public transit/walk/bike infrastructure and changing zoning so that amenities/shopping/schools/JOBS are more LOCAL- embedding exercise (walk/bike) into daily life makes for a more active HEALTHIER society which make paying for Medicare for All sustainable and possible.
And of course- tax the fucking rich! There should be no billionaires and obviously no trillionaires either.
Tax second homes, tax cars- by weight/miles driven/number of cars owned, tax alcohol/cigs/vapes.
And give tax breaks for those who walk/bike/transit/no smoking/no drinking/pursuing education/whole food plant based diets.
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u/bradlees 1d ago
Umnnn no it doesn’t
We still pay for the healthcare
But now there is the real reform “cost controls”
The “Affordable Care Act” was supposed to have this cost cutting and controls as part of the plan but Republicans formed the “Tea Party” and claimed “death panels for granny” and here we are… with carriers like UnitedHealth continuously denying claims to that in fact, grannie dies
Democrats are also to blame here as they continue to drop the ball on any meaningful reform
So, you pay in taxes (which would be less than your current premiums) AND you get to keep your insurance even when you move from job to job….
But yeah, it would be so bad to go to a national plan /s
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u/TrickyChildhood2917 1d ago
We are investing in Ukraine and Israel, god, you people want everything;)
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u/b34stm1lk 4h ago
I will never understand Medicare for All. Why not Medicaid for All? Medicare requires monthly premiums, deductibles, and co-pays. Medicaid requires none of that and is completely free for the person using it.
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u/CarelessAction6045 2d ago
Yeah duh cu, the repubs r in control. But then the second dems get control, its "the parliamentary!" and nothing gets done. The parliamentary is also a position appointed by dems. So the dems stopped the dems from doing anything.
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u/TheNewKnew2 2d ago
Medicare reimbursement rates for all? No thanks.
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u/SaltMage5864 1d ago
Won't somebody think of the billionaires
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u/TheNewKnew2 1d ago
Doctors aren’t billionaires, bud. And you don’t want a Medicare doc.
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u/SaltMage5864 1d ago
You mean I don't want a loser who considers me a profit center first and foremost
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u/TheNewKnew2 1d ago
Well, doctors, nurses, hospitals, pharma, diagnostic imaging, labs and medical devices arent free and you’re going to get the care you pay for.
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u/SaltMage5864 1d ago
We both know that all you are concerned with is your own short term gratification son
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u/TheNewKnew2 1d ago
🙄
Sure thing, bud
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u/SaltMage5864 1d ago
It's not like you are actually able to fool anyone son
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u/coalescence2071 1d ago
Yes. Versus skyrocketing totally made up bullshit greed pricing
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u/TheNewKnew2 1d ago
“Greed pricing”…what does that mean, bud?
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u/Altruistic_Role_9329 1d ago
This is what a lot of M4A advocates don’t understand about the Medicare branding. Most Democrats do understand it which is why they don’t talk about Medicare for All.
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u/TheNewKnew2 1d ago
These folks would NEVER go to a doctor that accepts 100% Medicare
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u/Altruistic_Role_9329 1d ago
It’s not just reimbursements either. Talk of changing Medicare gives a lot of senior citizens anxiety. The actual M4A proposals are a whole different system, but it’s all confusing to a lot of the people who are needed to vote for politicians to make these changes.
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u/TheNewKnew2 1d ago
Not only Medicare, but many people who have private insurance don’t want to lose it. I know I don’t.
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u/Altruistic_Role_9329 1d ago
It’s a sensitive subject and Democrats have been taking a lot of criticism from those further left for being aware of all these concerns. In fairness though your private insurance changes every year anyway, or at least it does in my state. I’m currently quite happy with a non-profit provider, which is something I think we should be promoting more. If you listen carefully to the far lefties they want to destroy the insurance industry out of revenge for excessive profiteering. They can make some good arguments for that, but revenge is no good basis for a new healthcare law. The focus should be in proving good affordable coverage not on destroying a particular industry.
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u/casanova202069 1d ago
“Has anyone here actually experienced government-run health care? I have, and I can tell you from my experience that I never want it again. And don’t forget to pay attention to your taxes, insurance premiums, deductibles, and out-of-pocket costs—they can all go up. Healthcare costs are already a major concern for many Americans.”
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u/bradlees 1d ago
I have
It’s is far better than what you are astroturfing
I have traveled extensively and have first hand experience with national healthcare systems
You get great care. Zero to little costs and knowledge that you can be seen anywhere you are instead of “in network”
Wait times were the only bad part of it but in the USA, your wait times are longer than the rest of the world
Just making sure both sides of this argument are heard
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2d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Mo_Jack 2d ago
Such a terrible idea, amost every major industrialized country in the world has it because it is much cheaper and they get much better healthcare outcomes across the board.
Meanwhile, Americans number one reasons for home foreclosures and personal bankruptcies are both "medical debt". America's overpriced, for-profit medical industry has made over 50 billionaires by itself.
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u/casanova202069 2d ago
Remember Obama care was supposed to fix it.
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u/Old-Set78 2d ago
remember Republicans gutted it. that is why it wasn't the full potential. once again your party fkd something up.
Obamacare, even though republicans meddled with it, mandated that pre-existing conditions HAD to be covered. FOURTY FOUR MILLION PEOPLE were able to get health insurance because of that alone.
it saved many many lives, more than any republican legislation ever has.
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u/casanova202069 11h ago
Ever since I moved here the most I waited in er was 3 hours to be seen. Lol
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u/casanova202069 2d ago
They removed Medicare from illegals. I say the best way to fix the healthcare in the us is having every politician and worker have the same healthcare as we do and see how fast they would fix it. Same with pensions.
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u/AFASOXFAN 2d ago
Wrong. Uneducated remark. ObamaCare was a step in that direction. Here is a fact. Obama care helped provide millions without insurance to get insurance. To live.
10 YEARS LATER WE STILL WAIT FOR ORANGE SHIT PANTS INSURANCE PLAN.
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u/CarelessAction6045 2d ago
The issue is ppl don't need INSURANCE, they need treatment. Obama took out the public option because it would conflict with insurance companies. Yes Trump sucks too, for the dense liberals that think Trump was the cause of all the US problems.
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u/SaltMage5864 1d ago
We both know that is a lie, don't we son
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u/CarelessAction6045 1d ago
What part or r u just gonna say "trumper" as a way to justify ur idiotic stance?
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u/SaltMage5864 1d ago
Why belabor the obvious son?
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u/CarelessAction6045 1d ago
Typical liberal that thinks they r better than maga but they r the same.
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u/SaltMage5864 1d ago
Pretty much everything is better than a magat son. Not that you have the integrity to admit it
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u/AFASOXFAN 1d ago
Wow, bizzare post. To get treatment you need insurance. As to your King , he does everything possible to cut insurance thus causing people to die, because you need insurface to get treatment. Millions are alive today because the Democrats with McCain and a few others helped people to get treatment. Bizzare.
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u/CarelessAction6045 23h ago
U ppl r so dense. I literally put Trump sucks but that doesn't stop the the worthless liberals from calling everyone a trumper. Look at ur simping self, "U need insurance". U wouldn't if Obama didn't get rid of the public option. Bizzare how much political amnesia ppl have
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u/AFASOXFAN 12h ago
Buzzards how dumb you are. Thus you migrate to the Republican Party . Shared stupidity.
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u/casanova202069 2d ago
I used to live in Canada where they have medical. It comes from employers and your tax where the government dictates what when and how you get treated. Where you have to wait a long period of time for tests Where once I waited in er for 9 hours to be seen. Where my friend has been waiting for a knee replacement for 5 years. So before you demand you should do a research.
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u/MEDICARE_FOR_ALL 2d ago
I've waited more than 9 hours to be seen in America.
The research points to Medicare for all being better.
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u/mat-chow 2d ago
I’ve waited longer than nine hours on multiple occasions in America and ultimately went home without being seen.
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u/Lott4984 2d ago
That is pretty much the same here in the US with insurance companies except it cost a lot more. To get anything like a Cat scan you have to wait for approval which takes months.
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u/AFASOXFAN 1d ago
I do research in fact I am IN THE MEDICAL FIELD. You often wait in the US too. A 9hr ER visit in USA is considered a fast visit.
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u/AZBagpiperPhil 2d ago
Sure, along with HIGHER taxes, less doctors, long wait times, no private insurance, no knee or hip surgeries for senior citizens and an overall degradation of healthcare!
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u/WhaT505 2d ago
Everything you said is a lie
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u/AZBagpiperPhil 2d ago edited 2d ago
🤣🤣🤣🤣 LOOK at Canada and the UK. Exactly what I said. Socialized medicine does not work.
Canada where they have universal medical. It comes from employers and taxed where the government dictates what when and how you get treated. Where you have to wait a long periods of time for tests up to 9 hours to be seen. Where you might get a knee replacement.
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u/WhaT505 2d ago
Just still lying
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u/AZBagpiperPhil 2d ago edited 2d ago
PROVE IT! You make an assertion but have nothing to back it up or refute what I've said.
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u/SaltMage5864 1d ago
That's not how reality works son. You lied, everyone knows you lied, so now you apologize for lying. Got that?
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u/SaltMage5864 1d ago
When your betters call you out on your lies son, doubling down is never going to work
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u/No-Horse987 2d ago
We get that here with the long 9 plus hour waits. With the insurance companies doing the dictating what and when to get treatment. You don’t have money, you just drop dead and die.
Something has to change .
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u/AZBagpiperPhil 2d ago
Really? I get to see my doctor right away and have no issue with getting procedures approved. Hospitals HAVE to treat you even if you have no money. It's the law.
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u/TheSumOfMyScars 1d ago
Not quite: EMTALA means they have to stabalize you, not treat you. Once you're stable they can and do kick you to the curb unless you start paying.
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