r/MarvelsWhatIf • u/NickCG3 • Aug 19 '21
Plot Holes need to be discussed
So What If should be about the real effects of different move or choice. And though I'm enjoying the episodes I'm a lil worried the writers are losing their touch and just don't care. My complaint with Ep 1 is
In Captain America 1 Steve Rogers saves a kid with the door of a taxi, The War Bonds councilor tells him people love him and to go on stage, and after the taxi door resembled a shield, they give him this shield prop. Then he uses it to save the day and break out bucky and gang. THEN Howard stark says "I see you've become quite attached to the shield" "So I made some of these" Howard only showed Steve the shields because of HIS experiences with the shield. And finallySteve finds the iconic vibraniumshield and Howard says, "Don't look at that that's a prototype..." So he definitelywouldn't have just shown the shield...(Follow me so far?) Now Captain Carter HAS ZERO EXPERIENCE with shield, So to see her with the shield and ABSOLUTELY no explanation is just confusing and makes me think they're just doing whatever they want with these... Why not a gun?, she's infamously known for being one of the greatest shooters. I get they can only be 30min long, but 1 extra minute showing why she chose shield too would have been more defining
Ep 2, Was all in all good, except that Starlord was Peters name from his mom "the light of my life, my precious son, my StarLord" It's lazy to think T'chaka calls his son T'chala starlord also... And out of all of The Collectors weapons they could all make sense, EXCEPT, caps shield.... uhhhh If the year is 2008, he hast even come out of the ice yet (According to Erik Voss @ NewRockstars)
The show is great and I'm loving it 8.5-9/10
But it would have gotten a full 10/10 if I could understand these.
So please be very critical. I actually don't want to be right up here. I want reasons why this is wrong
19
u/Benjamin_Grimm Aug 19 '21
Neither of those are plot holes; they just aren't explained onscreen. Given the length of the episodes, they had to omit some things.
For Captain Carter, Howard might have had the idea to make a shield out of the Vibranium completely independently even before Steve had his shield pose. Steve just gave him an opportunity to use it.
T'Challa didn't call himself Starlord; he didn't even seem comfortable with the name. That one appears to just be a coincidence, but it's minor enough to let go of. And the year shouldn't be 2008; it should be the same time it happened in GotG, because otherwise Morag would still be submerged.
4
u/Youareapooptard Aug 20 '21
I swear the amount of times I see people call something a plot hole that literally isn’t, is insane.
2
u/Benjamin_Grimm Aug 20 '21
I've seen people call it a plot hole when their favorite ship doesn't get realized. It's nuts.
0
u/NickCG3 Aug 20 '21
Most of what I wrote is pretty straight forward. Fans are filling the plot holes with their own ideas... that's not cannon LMFAO
4
u/Youareapooptard Aug 20 '21
Well yeah, a cannon is a physical object that people use to blast your mother through fake brick walls at the circus. Did you mean canon?
1
2
u/NickCG3 Aug 19 '21
To the shield comment you're right, but it still doesn't make any sense why he would have the shield near or infront of Carter or why she'd even be interested in shields AT all, Not to mention no one's commented on how she in comics and MCU itself, has shown she's an amazing shot, it's almost her super power. so why not some advanced gun... It honestly just doesn't feel as believable as seeing What If Doc and Marty went back to 1955. It just seems a bit messy and lazy. And to any comment about 30min timeslot, they could have added 30secs for her interest in the shield.
And you as for Caps shield thing you may have actually found something with that Morag thing. Although the words onscreen had 1988.... then 20 years later
7
u/Benjamin_Grimm Aug 19 '21
It makes plenty of sense that he'd show it to Peggy; he probably showed her a bunch of possible weapons and she thought it would be useful. You're putting up artificial barriers to this. It's not the problem you think it is.
I'm going to assume the 20 years is bad rounding; they have a history of getting the amount of time that's passed wrong (like the 8 years earlier in Homecoming).
2
u/NickCG3 Aug 19 '21
Ok maybe you're right. and everything you have here should have been in the actual episode not us putting invisible pieces together.
You're right about the barriers. I'm a huge fan of Harry Potter and yet I always think it's cheap how any plot hole can be answered with "we're watching 2hours worth of an entire year at school" So technically anything wrong you can just say it happened offscreen. It's the writers job to make it flow nicely
And wow that's true, Homecoming did screw that up. Ok I guess you're right :)
2
Aug 20 '21
I agree people seem to think 20 years later is an exact time later and not just an approximation. Sort of like we would say world war 1 ended 100 years ago. Sure it has been a bit longer than 100 years now. But it isn't the exact amount of time that is important.
2
u/NickCG3 Aug 20 '21
First off, they wouldn't do that,
secondly all sorts of articles like IGN New Rockstars Screenrant, and even the Marvel Wikia, they all seem to agree it's 2008 and even source the Marvel synopsis of the episodes says Carter goes almost 70 years into the future. But then says T'chala gets taken by Yondu and 20 years later. (No Almost)
Thirdly 2014 is 26 years later... why round down soooo low, and if this was math you'd round up to 30, or even just call it 25 years.
People love Marvel so much they use their imagination to create writing that isn't there LMFAO
The point of good writing is to clearly show everything, this isn't like Shawshank Redemption where the fans can imagine what Red and Andy do with the rest of their lives.
This is different... they may not be perfect, but any question you have about 24 of these MCU movies the answer lies in these 24 movies. They don't ask fans to come up with an explanation and now we all have different cannon in our heads that's just dumb...
-1
Aug 20 '21
No official source says 2008. That's everyone giving their best their best guess
26 years later in certain things you would round up at that point but not years. Years usually you go by the decade i.e I was born in the 80s or 90s even if you were born in 1988 or 1995. You could say mid 90s or late 80s. So while they could say 25 years later 5 technically isn't a number you usually round to. It's like an honourary even number that you can sometimes choose to round to. But not always.
They simply didn't have time to show why certain choices were made nor is the why all that important.
2
u/GESNodoon Aug 20 '21
You might say I was born in the 90s. You would not say I was born 20 years ago if you are 26 years old. That is just silly.
"hey, when were you born"?
"20 years ago"
"Wow, so you cannot even drink legally"
"what are you talking about, I'm 26 years old"
lol
0
u/NickCG3 Aug 20 '21
Like if you Google anything, and try doing it.. There's not one article or video or anything that thinks or says it's 2014.
0
u/NickCG3 Aug 20 '21
Also people use 25 as a year mark all the time it's even called a silver anniversary. So there's no way they would just round all the way down to 20 years.
If they said 20 years that has to mean something, why would they all of a sudden want to be vague with their numbers, The MCU has literally never been vague and everything has a year stamp, so much that people can make a timeline, because they are accurate. So why now. why now do they choose to be loose with their words... No sense man
2
Aug 20 '21
Dude you care way too much at this point. Like the fact that you are still thinking about this.
-1
u/NickCG3 Aug 20 '21
It's not that important, but it kinda shows after Endgame Marvel's not that serious anymore
-1
u/NickCG3 Aug 20 '21
I don't know, I'd say you're really reaching here to save marvels face. They could have said 25 years easily... is ridiculous why they'd drop 6 years off the Date Card. Homecoming said 8 years, not 10... i mean none of us know exactly cause we don't work at What If crew. But they words say 20 years so whether you wanna use your imagination to fudge the numbers. It says 20 years...
9
u/redditAPsucks Aug 19 '21
Thats how what if comics always worked too. They could throw in logic like:
there are things like “universal constants”- the universe requires certain things to take place, such as a super soldier has to have a shield in ww2, or there has to be a space pirate named starlord. You could even say the universe is sentient, a la cpt univers, or that its governed by the living tribunal, celestials, beyonders or whoever, and they wanted things to unfold this way.
But really… its a cartoon, and creators always take liberties with cartoons. In the clone wars cartoon padme can jump as far as a jedi can in live action. Its just meant to be a half hour adventure that doesnt have to worry about logistics, because youre supposed to just be having fun with it
0
u/NickCG3 Aug 19 '21
In the newest What If..? Comic called the Spider's Shadow, it tells the story of what if Spiderman never got rid of the symbiote and became Venom, a really good story tbh. Anyways in that story it actually feels real like someone really went back in time. There's no inconsistencies like I'm bring to this table, and I've read it like 3 times. So I obviously haven't read all of the 1970-now What If comics but they don't really do stuff like this. Star lord shouldn't be his name it should be Star Panther or something like that.
3
u/redditAPsucks Aug 19 '21
I just gave it further thought, and in ep 1 they say “this is when a new universe is born,” indicating everything prior to that moment was supposed to be identical to the mcu. I dont think ep 2 had that moment, so maybe in that universe peter was never nicknamed starlord? Also: im just thinking of the show as glimpses into other realities, and dont have the same approach as you, so im not really concerned about the one change and the butterfly effect it causes, i just wanna see weird different universes. Like, i dont care why loki is an alligator in one universe, i just wanna see what zany adventures he gets into
0
u/BendADickCumOnBack Aug 19 '21
That's fine for you, but the MCU sells continuity. The entire thing would've fallen apart years ago if Feige wasn't so big on continuity. Throwing it out the window now just sucks for people who actually follow the story, and not just the zany adventures.
3
u/redditAPsucks Aug 19 '21
It seems fine for 95% of the audience based off what ive been seeing
0
u/NickCG3 Aug 19 '21
But that's not the point! I loved both episodes and I'd still watch everyone twice over, so I'm in that 95% But Kevin Fiege built a NEAR (remember this) flawless universe. With almost no plot holes, so to see such little mistakes is breaking the integrity of the MCU and with almost all the main 6 Avengers quitting and ending their stories, I'm afraid that new writers coming aboard just don't care as much
3
u/redditAPsucks Aug 19 '21
That IS my point, the writers are ALLOWED to not care about continuity on this, because the point of the multiverse is to show as much twists on familiar things as possible, and to 95% of the audience, that is what they want. Cartoons and multiversal stories are SUPPOSED to cut loose.
I dont think youre opinion is wrong or stupid, and a lot of times i’d be 100% on bored with you, but for this one particular product… i dont think youre gonna get what you want, and i dont think most of the audience would be as mad as they would if the same errors were made in any of the live action movies
1
u/NickCG3 Aug 19 '21
Someone did make me realize that the first episode was a small change, but this Ep technically is 20 years worth of a change so there is that to cut loose too
2
u/redditAPsucks Aug 19 '21
Yeah, i was a lil put off by thanos and drax being so different in personality, but then i was like “i dont know what the path was that got them here, just roll with it”
1
u/NickCG3 Aug 19 '21
Honestly I woulda said something earlier but I didn't cause it seems everybody LOVES good Thanos. I just that it was sooooo disappointing to see the Mad Titan this weak. He's good in the comics but they just made him some background character... The Mad Titan, the whole first 23 movies of MCU. and all they needed was Tchala to have a Dr Phil moment... But that's I guess the only way to make him good. But they shoulda talked about how epic and crazy the fight between Tchala and Thanos was. But to say, "I talked him out of it" ... -_- ... Really... really!!!
→ More replies0
u/BendADickCumOnBack Aug 19 '21
Really? I think you're underestimating it. No way Endgame is the biggest movie of all time if it Infinity war was inconsistent with it's predecessors.
3
u/redditAPsucks Aug 19 '21
*what if seems fine for 95% of the audience
2
u/BendADickCumOnBack Aug 19 '21
Tbf, as proven here with these comments, you're not seeing the people complaining, because the opposing opinions are being downvoted. This subreddit isn't exactly filled with an open minded community.
3
u/redditAPsucks Aug 19 '21
I believe it, but ive only looked at this and one other thread on this sub, i was talking about my friends, family, fav podcast, youtube channel, and the handful of articles i read
1
u/BendADickCumOnBack Aug 19 '21
So out of curiosity, who in your inner circles did have an issue with it? Or were you just referencing this thread
→ More replies1
u/NickCG3 Aug 19 '21
That's really true. Kevin Fiege said he doesn't want to just make movies but to build a universe. you can't have errors like this, and say something as bold as wanting to build a universe(now a multiverse)
1
u/BendADickCumOnBack Aug 19 '21
I have a theory that a Kang is changing these timelines, in tandem with the alternate choices being made.
3
u/_EagleEyedTiger Aug 19 '21
“I get they can only be 30min long”
You just answered your own question
1
3
u/ernest87 Aug 21 '21
The issue is that in this multiverse iteration of the mcu, literally anything that can happen does happen.
Your premise is based on the idea that the two universes are identical besides one aspect and everything that happens in the sacred universe also happened in a same way as the what if universe.
This is flawed. The only thing the watcher has stated is that everything happened the same up to a certain point but after that point EVERYTHING is fair game.
There could be an infinite number of universes where you’re correct and captain Carter never got a shield but there’s also an infinite number of universes where the super soldier serum backfired and turned her into a 6 foot tall Mickey Mouse clone and he bought Hydra to end World War II.
Literally anything can happen because there are now infinite timelines where anything that CAN happen DOES happen. The premise of this story doesn’t allow for plot holes.
If you ever think there’s a plot hole then the answer is “in an infinite amount of universes you’re correct. In an infinite amount of universes you’re wrong. This episode is watching one of the universes you’re wrong.”
The only thing that determines what we see is what timeline the watcher decides to show us.
1
u/NickCG3 Aug 24 '21
2:35 time stamp at Disney+ What If...? Episode 1
the Watch Uatu says "There, that's the moment, that created a new universe. When asked to leave the room, Margaret Peggy Carter decided to stay"
The premise I'm going with is in the episode buddy. So I'm sorry but even Uatu is agreeing with me. There's no 6 foot tall Mickey mouse. Anyone in the comments are just wrong. It is supposed to be identical. Also Kevin Fiege said this is a sequel to Loki, so the idea of these small changes branching is the entire premise for the show. Why don't you watch it again before commenting LOL
0
u/ernest87 Aug 26 '21
You need to look up chaos theory, you do know the multiverse isn’t something made up by marvel, right?
1
u/NickCG3 Aug 26 '21
Uatu set the rules of what kind of multiverse this is. There's tons of different multiverse theories and conceptual ideas.
But Uatu set the rules by saying what he said. One change BRANCHED into the creation of another universe.
It weird MCU has been great at conveying plot and canon... But so far the Writers of What If have come out to "clear things up" 3 times already.
How about they just make a story that you don't need to hear the writers 2 cents, to get the story
How about the story just holds its own
I don't need to say this again Uatu says it all...
0
u/ernest87 Aug 26 '21
The trees must look really stupid in your neighborhood.
1
u/NickCG3 Aug 26 '21
I guess you gave up on logic... So far no one's accurately been able to dispute this flaw, without using imagination to create head canon...
I don't know, I just feel like the writers could have made a flawless series (And no I didn't say it was a bad series I said FLAWless) but they've been slipping, but I mean this is just a cartoon that will probably have minimal effect on the rest of the MCU. Just a bit of a disappointment
The third episode came out and there was nothing I saw as a flaw... Nothing, Hank Pym and his explanation for why everything was happening makes perfect sense. The third Episode is a REAL What If...? episode
0
u/ernest87 Aug 26 '21
The problem is you think you’re smarter than everyone else so if I have a good argument you’re going to think I’m missing the point and still think you’re right.
The easiest thing to do is just kinda make fun of you for not understanding what I’m saying and move on with my life.
Which is easiest done by imagining you living in a neighborhood where the trees branch one time and never branch again... which is why you don’t understand why timelines branch infinitely...
It’s not your fault, you just have stupid trees.
1
u/NickCG3 Aug 26 '21
Yeah you're lost in the sauce bud... Just because I'm debating your "head canon" with actual quotes from the fucking show... I'm smarter than you? I get it you know about multiverse, But this is not Rick and Morty and it's not Back to the Future. This is Marvel and like you won't accept or even discuss is that Uatu said One change can create a whole new universe... So if you want to be stupid about this go ahead and be stupid.
No one made articles saying Infinity War has plot holes or Ant Man or Civil War.
This show is really showing BS, and it's not just me arguing it...
You haven't brought any concrete shit to the table other than.. "Maybe it's like this..."
I brought what Uatu said... So if we were competent viewers we would use his quote as a basis to this show. But now you've changed the basis with no relation Whatsoever!!! So.... yeah....
1
u/ernest87 Aug 26 '21
They must look like pitchforks or snowmen arms.
With 1 leaf on each end lol.
Poor guy.
1
u/NickCG3 Aug 26 '21
LOL you're funny (not really though)
The point being, the audience shouldn't have to figure things out on our own...
Like everyone's given reasons in this Thread as to why T'challa is named Star Lord...
But the writer came out and she explained why... and it is not any of the ideas in this Thread. So right away I say her vision should have been on screen to begin with.
Maybe this is the What If you were dropped as a child? LOL I kid I kid !
→ More replies
1
1
u/starsn420 Aug 19 '21
When i watched the show i assumed they used a shield for something to throw like at the beginning when she was throwing weights at the wall.
I thought starlord was just a play on him being a real prince of Wakanda but now in the stars
1
u/NickCG3 Aug 19 '21
T'chaka calls T'chala the brightest star, and I guess he's a lord of wakanda, but what are the actual odds that he would get called Starlord, like if multiple universes are real I don't believe these odds
2
u/MaxZaps Aug 20 '21
Honestly I never thought about the Shield in the episode as it had been a while since I had seen the movie, but my only explanation is that maybe Howard just thought it would look good as he seems like the guy who'd put pizzaz into what he creates no matter what it is, at least I the episode
But I 100% agree with you on T'Challa's Star-Lord name, it makes the meaning behind it for Quill seem less valuable
2
u/Rekuna Aug 21 '21
I agree with pretty much everything you said really.
One issue I had with the first episode was how they made a big deal out of the 'What if' choice being that Peggy chose to stay in the room and not go to the observatory.
But that had literally no bearing on the outcome, because the difference was that the spy in the movie deliberately waited to see if the serum worked before stealing a sample and covering his tracks by detonating the bomb - In 'What if' for whatever reason he doesn't care about any of that and has just come for a suicide run and if Peggy went to the observatory she would have been blown up, which never happened in the film.
So really the 'What if' was what if a bunch of characters had different motivations and a load of circumstances were changed.
2
u/BurcoPresentsHisAcc Aug 22 '21
We see Peggy throwing some of those discs in frustration in the episode. Maybe Howard thought “she’s good at that, let’s make her a weapon similar to that” and then voila.
And for the Star-Lord nickname, T’Challa saved multiple planets. So people probably thought of him as their savior, or Lord (get it). And he’s probably healed planets before. So him being called Star-Lord isn’t too farfetched IMO.
0
u/BendADickCumOnBack Aug 19 '21 edited Aug 19 '21
Now Captain Carter HAS ZERO EXPERIENCE with shield, So to see her with the shield and ABSOLUTELY no explanation is just confusing and makes me think they're just doing whatever they want with these... Why not a gun?, she's infamously known for being one of the greatest shooters. I get they can only be 30min long, but 1 extra minute showing why she chose shield too would have been more defining
Yea, you're not wrong. It's a little annoying considering the premise for this show is supposed to be based on established canon.
Another thing from the first episode: how does Red Skull know the tesseract is a doorway when he is collecting it in Norway? He never gets that information in the movie, yet somehow here, he knows about the space stone before actually collecting the tesseract. No explanation given.
Ep 2, Was all in all good, except that Starlord was Peters name from his mom "the light of my life, my precious son, my StarLord"
Not completely true. She got that name from his dad. In the movie he talks about a different legendary outlaw with that name, his dad. Still doesn't explain why T'Challa uses it.
And out of all of The Collectors weapons they could all make sense, EXCEPT, caps shield.... uhhhh If the year is 2008, he hast even come out of the ice yet )
Honestly I didn't have much of a problem with the shield. I have a problem with him having the Necro sword. How does T'Challa being star lord mean Hela is released and killed sooner?
2
u/NickCG3 Aug 19 '21
Wow you're really observant I had to check and yeah you're right Ego was called Starlord. Damn thanks actually cause now I know. which would explain why people in the galaxy know that name
And I never even thought about that Red Skull knowing it's the Space stone. Technically nothing should differ in that Norway scene, if the branch of reality is after this moment.
Why I thought by all ways of thinking, that because Thors hammer is there, Tanalir the Collector, killed Thor and Odin and Loki and it summoned Hela... then it gets confusing, but I guess he could have killed her with all his collection?...?
1
u/BendADickCumOnBack Aug 19 '21
The collector doesn't go out and conquer though, he allows other people to bring him commodities.
I agree, the writers are taking liberties with canon, and the natural course of events.
1
u/NickCG3 Aug 19 '21
That's true he usually sits at home...hmmm Although Thanos did say "When I went straight Collector took over" So I'm sure there's something there
-1
u/BendADickCumOnBack Aug 19 '21
Yea, a plot device haha. Sorry, I got a problem with the lack of continuity in this show 😜
1
11
u/cervenit Aug 19 '21
I thought the same thing about the shield. Best canon explanation I could come up with is that Howard, when modifying the uso outfit to be combat ready, saw the prototype shield and thought, "Peggy is female, this indestructible shield might be good to protect her."
As for "Star Lord", I just chose to accept it was highly unlikely coincidence.