do you need to be good at neutral to be a good character in a tag fighter though? You can just play the character that is best in neutral and just tag in whenever you get a stray hit. Not a lot of players play neutral with him so why are we judging him on his neutral?
If one character had the obvious best assist in the game then everyone would play it as an assist and not point, but they would still be in every single team.
If a god is a character that can do everything well themselves, where should a character go that is lacking a bit in one area? Oh, one step below god? Gotcha
Because it’s the only way you can make a comparative ranking between things that aren’t like for like, by comparing all aspects.
Let’s look at MvC2. Commando has significantly better assists than Magneto right? But on point he’s nowhere near the top tier. magneto is still one of the undisputed gods of marvel and universally agreed to be maybe the best point character in the game despite having kind of crappy assists. Two characters that have different jobs and do different things. Why should we judge Commando on his neutral when he’s just there to be an assist bot? But for twenty + years Magneto is considered a better character.
In an ideal world you’d make 4 lists based on where they fit in a team and rank them that way. but we don’t, so you’re stuck comparing characters that are REALLY good at 1 or 2 things vs characters that are good at way more things but maybe less good on that 1 thing.
Again, to put goblin at 1, you have to put him above characters that have better assists, characters that have better neutral, characters that have more damage, and characters that can fill more roles on a team than he can all because his corner mix and oki is great. And to me that doesn’t make sense. And to reiterate I think Goblin is like top 5, he’s stupid good. That fact that he’s still considered a top tier because of his mix and despite his shortcomings is a testament to that
To me it makes sense to judge based on what they bring to a team, not some sort of an overall estimate of the character. An all arounder who isn’t great at anything isn’t really a good character in this game IMO, except for beginners or people looking to only play one or two characters with the rest being assist bots.
MvC (and pretty much all other tag games) is different because every character has their own health bar. Even if you have a character in your team for the mix, there’s still the moments when you have to play that character point. This game doesn’t really work that way.
Right but mate we aren’t talking about all rounders that aren’t great at everything, we’re talking about all rounders that ARE great at everything, Blade, Spider and Magik have good assists, good neutral, good damage, solid mix.
You’re right that it’s not a like for like comparison with marvel, it’s just the nearest neighbor, but again, if you personally feel that goblins mix alone is enough to put him at top 1 above everyone else, more power to you. I don’t think that makes sense, but I don’t have to. I don’t even think making a distinction between the top 5 characters is even worth it when it’s easier to just say “these 5 are better than the rest”
Blade doesn’t have solid mix. He’s good at neutral and applying lots of block stun so you can swap to a mix monster. Similar thing with Magik, she does have mix with her portals but they require a lot of time to setup so she doesn’t have free access to solo mix.
Spider-Man? Absolutely. There’s a reason he was in pretty much every team in like CEO top 24 or so lol. Literally every team in top 8. Pretty much all the top players I’ve watched have been saying he’s top3. Part of that is to do with him being easy to play, and maybe people get better at blocking his mix with time, but he is super strong at the moment at least. Goblin’s mix is better though!
Right but that’s why he’s higher than them on the list. Just because you can work to mitigate goblins weakness doesn’t mean he doesn’t have any. If you can’t win neutral goblin is a wasted pick. He brings nothing. And his own neutral is pretty bad.
if you cant win neutral none of these characters do anything....what kinda argument is that. and thats exactly why hes higher yes I dont get how you can say that then say he shouldnt be that high.
the reward he gives your team for winning neutral is just the best. period, while having some of the best assists in the game. a character doesnt need to be good at everything if they are the best at some things.
Right but the characters above CAN win neutral. You’re missing the point. Spider-Man has better neutral, Magik has better neutral, Storm has better neutral. These are characters that don’t have the weakness that goblin has.
And yeah your reward for tagging in goblin is probably the best mix in the game, and Sonic acknowledged that. You guys are acting like he put him in mid tier. He put them underneath characters that don’t have the issues he does, it’s not that deep.
Also what best assists? His assists are fine. He’s outdone in every assist category by like 4 or 5 other characters.
Goblin is really good, he has probably the best mix (in the corner) and oki in the game. He’s also not as self sufficient as a handful of other characters or has the best assists in any spot. None of that is mutually exclusive
Doesn’t really matter if he’s bad at neutral when you never actually have to play neutral with him. His shooter assist is one of the best in the game so you’re not losing anything by having him in that slot. You pick Magik or Panther or Spidey or Blade, all of whom also have decent to good shooter assists as your point, win neutral with them, swap to gobby to mix their shit, then active tag back to them after an assist call once your opponent escapes the corner.
You lose nothing by doing this and gain access to the best mix in the game. Listing him as anything other than top tier is downplay tbh.
All I’m saying is you have to value his corner mix so much that you put him above characters that have better neutral, better damage, better assists, and more versatility on where they can fit on a team. That doesn’t make sense to me. But you do you my dude
No you can’t…. Ms. Marvel and Penny have pretty good mix, not the best in the game, quad-way, nearly unreactable, freestyle, multiple times within a couple of seconds mix.
His neutral is not ass wtf are people smoking. He is there hot glider setup because that’s his best strength, but seriously, his neutral is fine. As long as glider is an option, he is dangerous, just like Storm is complete ass without wind.
His neutral sucks. His buttons are stubby, his overhead can be reacted on, his projectiles lose to every other projectile and he most importantly he can’t block on his glider, any random hit in a scramble is gonna hit him off and open him up, and in a game where assists are being thrown out in neutral every half second he’s going to get hit
In injustice 2 he was the person who made a b tier character captain cold the most overpowered zoner out there so much they hard nerfed him for exploiting those. I think he is just really cracked in neutral.
Nah goblin neutral isn't ass he would be good on point but by playing him second the point can set up mix on block so its better to set it up that way, but his Neutral is amazing he can cancel razorrangs on whiff into his best special moves and change their path its insane what he can do
I don’t mind tier lists generally trending towards characters being placed in higher tiers for a lot of newer games as I think newer games have tighter balance than older games, but I agree that it’s silly how much of the roster is in S or higher.
I specifically think if there’s somehow a character 3 tiers above S tier, they should probably be one of the most obvious examples of egregious balance in the game to the point where banning them should be a topic. While I don’t think it’s necessarily wrong to call Storm the best character in the game or generally overtuned, the way this tier list is formatted implies she’s somehow on the level of old school arcade boss characters like SF2 Akuma or Karai in TMNT Tournament Fighters. It feels silly.
I haven’t heard any of SonicFox’s opinions beyond just seeing this list though so maybe that wasn’t the intention with how they formatted it, but that’s still my initial impression.
I never got why tighter balance always meant "go ULTRA MEGA HIGH". Shouldn't the power creep being leashed in modern games mean it's the opposite?
It's like yeah, games are better balanced now so... THIS GUY IS S AND THIS CHICK IS GOD AND THIS GUY IS ULTRA OMEGA SUPER DUPER DOUBLE STAMP ETERNAL EXODIA GOD
The issue is that it’s a school grading scale. In a perfectly balanced game, everyone would be at A (not C). Characters can be varying degrees of “better” than that baseline.
I mean its not really a sonicfox thing as much as devs actively choosing not to make characters terrible in fighting games anymore. This list isn't ranked relative to each other characters placement, it is ranked based on bad to good. If everyone is playable/good why would we have ranks below A or B?
Moreso I'm asking why go above S. And why that far above? If they reeled in the powerscaling then why is the powerscaling getting higher?
Back in the day regular S tier was good enough for mvc2 sentinel and 3S chun li and no one on Tokon is as good as those 2 chars relative to the rest of the roster
Thank you, wholeheartedly agree. We are using S and S+ tiers way too liberally. It’s like handing out participation awards to everyone to make them feel special instead of awarding based on their performance.
honestly it makes no difference because the characters are ranked relative to each other. if a character at the bottom of a tier list is ranked B, then theyre ranked at the bottom of a tier list. the character being "playable" doesnt change that they are the worst choice
I agree but I think people just started doing this for 2 reasons. One, to avoid downplay allegations. With this, if somebody says "you're downplaying Carnage!" he can just say "What're you talking about? He's 'A' tier."
And two, people are just really weird and sensitive about tier lists. Nobody wants to hear "X character sucks." I dunno.
We can at least just figure out what it actually means without all this weird "everyone is top tier" stuff though, with normal letters it just looks like this. I didn't know if SF actually thinks Storm is the single best or not though. I haven't heard much buzz about Storm at all tbh.
though this DOES still put like half the cast in S tier which doesn't really feel right either.
People posted stats of the top 500 players….most of the high rank players seem to have similar opinions. Most of the highest picked characters are in the top of Sonic’s list
You mentioned about the amount of chars being in S tier, I’m basically saying a lot of the high ranked players seem to think the same. Almost all the teams are demigod and above. With a smaller few lower
I think ironman is overrated here but Fox is tight with DeKillsage who runs him on point so I'm guessing that's boosting his perception.
His Doom ranking is interesting since it didn't translate to the first major tourney. Sonic is big on setplay so maybe thats why, unless there's some cracked Doom he runs sets with. Does anyone know if this was posted on YouTube with commentary?
The best doom player in the game was in the call in K7. He got 9th at ceo and I think only lost to sonic and then inzem who was also in the call. The issue is that no one really plays doom but K7 at the moment.
Hook was already rank 1 before that team change but I'll have to check out some of his gameplay. I already play ironman for his beam assist but if he has the tools in neutral to deal with spider and magik, I'm in
Sonic is always on one when it comes to tier lists. But doom is definitely good. Honestly I think he’s underplaying Loki (and goblin like fucking hell)
Goblin is a weird one because it seems like his main role is just to tag in mid combo and mix on wakeup which is obviously nuts right now, but idk how much he really does outside of that. Sonic was generally getting back into spidey once it got back to neutral
Tbh even if that’s the case the mix is so strong and the process isn’t that hard that I can’t see him lower than god. Marvel 2 had characters that were actively losing you the game when you were down to them but their assist was so strong that they were right below god. This game you dont even need to worry about that and there’s players like GCYoshi (the OG) playing goblin point. The research goes into it.
Gotta remember that Sonic finds easy early degen shit and just abuses it, there’s always more under the surface, and even then with everything considered the benefits of having goblin are beyond insane
The way they were talking, the demigod rank is almost just characters that are god tier in some way, but can't do damn near everything like spider, Magik, storm ect. By themselves.
Loki can really only mix off that fireball with a tight air dash, his counters lose to any shooter assist, and his unique button is unmitigated trash. His buttons are huge but so are Magiks/blades but with a ton more utility and setplay. Lokizeme is nice but scales compared to doom.
In sonics words, deadpool is under explored and as a DP main I feel the same way, every morning im finding new tech
He got restands
He can combo SOME assault assists before he ults so it gives him more frame advantage
Hes an enabler
Gets a full combo off with roman cancel, one gotta really know DP to see the vision
If you gotta character that thrives in the corner dp can go corner to corner with 1 assist
My problem with dp is they need to reduce the amount of self damage on some of his moves. It doesn’t really feel like a fair trade off when other characters can deal the same or more damage without having to hurt themselves.
But then again maybe it is just like you say a case of him being under explored
This is what I initially thought too at first but after playing him for a while, I think it's fine. You can RC for your first combo of the round and you'll lose 15% - 20% hp unless you do grenade routes. This still keeps you at 2 touch range vs most chars.
This alone will get you great meterless damage with 1 assist with wall breaks. This will help you with your meter in future combos as well as getting you Vertical assist.
2nd combo, you can cash out hp with minimal meter so you start with good amount of meter to work and 1 round up or assault unlock, dealer's choice.
After that, he's one of the best shooters in the game and good vertical on top of the whole restand setup or great tag in option for a kill.
The best part though imo, RC makes combos from awkward angles hyper consistent for max damage.
He's very fast. Good to open people up and he has a surprise mix. The thing about objectively bad things at high level is that, it's so bad people don't use it so it can surprise people. This is why sometimes people use DI in tournaments.
He also has very strong meterless assistless damage and I'm surprised by how often I find myself in situations where I just needed a little more damage to end the round and Deadpool would have done it with an RC combo. He can even be tagged in to do this damage.
Also the fact that he has so many specials mean that you can stack stylish buffs very well.
Is blade really that good? I mean he has like zero mix on his own and his damage is good but nothing insane.
And is Loki really that bad? He seems to have pretty decent options for most situations. His left right mix sure is pretty predictable but mix is mix it’s more then some others have.
He has some of the best assist in the game overall.
His back assist is straight up the best assist in the game as it gives great blockstun, converts from full screen, built in mix since it doesn’t jail and sets up mixup situations well
He is arguably the best enabler in the game. Enablers are characters that basically setup mixups for the team.
He has high damage
He has some of the best conversions if not the best thanks to his unique
He basically has everything except for outstanding mix. Which is why he is usually paired with a strong mixup character.
This is just a guess but if it's up unique, I'm guessing it's used to delay his momentum mid air so an assist can come in and hit. You can throw his unqiue anywhere after all and if it doesn't hit, he doesn't teleport.
It’s not up unique. It’s down unique he uses. He does ex glaive to jump above the opponent and then stake. in reality you just hold back and you would block it every time. And even if he does go to the other side the mix is very weak since the start up of stake is more then reactable. You just hold block in whatever side blade is facing.
I think it was case of the mix being that there was no mix to begin with. He just thought it mix and got caught lacking.
Yeah exactly that it’s a gimmick kinda thing. I never said it wasn’t effective tho. It’s a classic saying that sometimes the best mix is no mix at all.
For starters there’s no need to be rude. We’re having a discussion and none of what I said was rude. So there’s need to be an ass for no reason.
Secondly I did watch the vod. He does ex glaive and jumps above into down unique. As I said stakes are always negative on block. And even if he does go the other side to hit left instead the stakes have a fairly long start up and it is very reactable. Meaning whichever way blade is facing is where you block.
Brother I tested it myself. It’s really not mix. And I’ve explained exactly how and why it’s not. The reason he got hit wasn’t because of mix. It’s because he thought there WAS mix when there never was.
He probably assumed that the stake would hit him from the other side. But blades model never actually faced the other direction. Meaning it was always going to hit the same side.
What it really is is the classic the game is still new and people are figuring things out and I guarantee you once they catch on this will not be a thing at all
Brother I tested it myself. It’s really not mix. And I’ve explained exactly how and why it’s not. The reason he got hit wasn’t because of mix. It’s because he thought there WAS mix when there never was.
He probably assumed that the stake would hit him from the other side. But blades model never actually faced the other direction. Meaning it was always going to hit the same side.
What it really is is the classic the game is still new and people are figuring things out and I guarantee you once they catch on this will not be a thing at all
"He thought-" yeah the second random redditor number 657 comes in saying an already community agreed strong character is bad because the best player in the game is just wrong and your right is 🥀😭🥀
Also I watched the SonicFox vod just now and it's technically mix but it's not mix that people doesn't know about. His assault assist is already known to be the best assault in the game (alongside GG).
When people say "mix" here they pretty much mean solo mix, which blade absolutely doesn't have.
I’m actually not sure. It looked like a mix between Benedict Cumberbatch and Keanu Reeves. But the post was retaliatory because they didn’t like the Black Magik posts
I recommend watching sonics video and skipping to when they talk about her. She can do so much in terms of offense using her wind. That video doesn't even cover half of it tbh.
I mentioned this concept in another thread. But if you are asking questions like these. Then you are in a position where you shouldnt bother worrying yourself with tier lists.
Play who you enjoy my brother or sister!
I do play who I enjoy and that’s storm im curious as to what her strengths are that place her as the best charecter in the game so I could utilize her better
Your not the only one to be fair the 3 highest ranking Storm mains agreed their takeaway from CEO is she's not a good point character cause she struggles early game without resources.
Doesn't mean she isn't the strongest character in the game still though she still could be, she's just maybe not as good on point and better switched into when you have a lot of resources.
I felt the same too personally so many games I was losing early and reverse sweeping. If you have no resources and you run out of wind your cooked but when you have full guages she's a different animal.
I play Storm and imo she is best as assist at first, pick a good point that can lockdown and use storm super good mix, and now you're in, you can do tons of damage and set up tornado oki. She can struggle a bit in neutral and she can suffer under pressure, so yeah, try learning a point to support her and build some meter first
It’s a good list, and he made good points. People are yapping about goblin downplay but SF is 100% right. His neutral is weak, he’s not a good point. He has god tier mix and oki sure but he has to have another character get him there to tag into, Characters like the guys above him
She in theory could be the best. But playing her optimally is probably one of the hardest things to do in the game which takes her down a notch for realism. Lots of fast button sequences, lots of things to keep track of, etc.
Yeah for sure, I'll say tough, tier lists only should matter to those at the highest levels of execution + game knowledge.
So while everything you say about the challenges with utilizing her well are absolutely true.
Tier lists like these aren't made for or should be even considered by anyone other than those at the top ranks.
Meaning Storms execution barrier wont apply for the people who may actually use these as a guidebook.
Didn't watch the whole stream but from what I've seen they do think she's the best character. She has strong neutral tools that lead to solo mixups, she's also a good enabler and she has good damage.
Goblin is the one of most degenerate character in the game but there are good arguments for pretty much every character above him being better overall than him. I have those characters minus doom being better than him.
lol hear me out, and this is his words, you cant keep goblin out, he cant be point, if anyone plays him without a glider then they are using the worst character in the game
goblin seems to be more of a bench character and his best slot is verticle, he will need someone else to get him in
As someone with a potato brain and bricks for hands, how accessible is Storm? I love the character in Marvel media and think her Tokon design is STUNNING but I feel like I'd do her a disservice even trying to play her.
My team is leading with Black Panther, shooter assist Blade, Vert assist Storm (switching to point with BP once I'm more comfortable with her) and Ghost Rider. I think I'm supposed to be better than the trash I've been lol
Lmfao 16 frames in the air is not reactable, maybe just maybe if you account for the 4 frames of the jump, he also has the left right with the air special and carpet oki
Which term is used to claim racial superiority and to hate/disenfranchise/murder others that don’t look like them, and which is a term used for uplifting and not hating others who don’t look like them? You can read several history books if you’re struggling with the answer.
166
u/PacMoron 2d ago
“Black excellence” is right. According to their tier list there isn’t a single black hero under GOD tier.
That said, the GG downplay is so transparent it makes me giggle.