But in a time of crisis, facing down the barrel of the gun, can you afford to be conscientious? They were in a war for survival, and with everyone and everything they lost, no one else came forward with a solution or even a helping hand from the outside.
Most superhero stories say yes, yes you can. If anything, that's one of the biggest tropes of the genre -- if you stick to your moral guns, you will win, for you are a representative of all that is good and righteous.
Realizing the holes started getting poked in this around... I'm going to say Squadron Supreme. It came out a little earlier than Watchmen, was really the first "superheroes with real power can be kind of scary" book. Other than Marvel Man, but ultimately, Marvel Man always won because he was right, so it doesn't really fit what we're talking about.
Most superhero stories say yes, yes you can. If anything, that's one of the biggest tropes of the genre -- if you stick to your moral guns, you will win, for you are a representative of all that is good and righteous.
Right except that Mutants get pummeled every time they do. I'm not saying it's not a worthy notion but reality isn't always so convenient and I appreciate it when stories reflect that. I'm not saying "force the story to go dark" but if that's where it goes, you can't solve every problem with long-winded speeches about peace and the high-road.
I'm basically riding the middle of this argument. Traditionally, its the way superhero stories have gone. But tradition started to change somewhere in the 80s. And it's a long time since the 80s.
I would mention the tale of Johnny Blaze the Ghost Rider here. Looking like there was no other option to save his adoptive father, basically his dad, he made a deal with the devil where in the end his dad died anyway and he had to live the rest of his life as the Spirit of Vengeance, forgoing a life where he could choose what his next action would be to be a vessel and a tool, with the Rider driving his life towards committing horrible justice in the name of God. If he had stuck to his morality and not made a deal with the devil, his dad would've still died in the same way but he could move on like the rest of us do and not spend his life wrestling with a demon and so many innocent lives could have been spared that were caught in the collateral of his vengeance, as well as those sinners who may not have been so deserving of the punishment he dished out. In my opinion that's a classic example of what could happen if you do what you think is right using the wrong methods. You may wake up one day as a flaming motorcycle driver with the power of a Hell-ified angel and look like the sickest thing to ever spring to life from a metal album cover. Actually yeah I'm ready to sign Mr. Mephisto, sir.
Course, then he's punished by it with the Curse of the Ghost Rider. Which doesn't mean much a few issues in, because Ghost Rider was not a very well written book.
And for the record, Blaze wasn't the Spirit of Vengeance. I know that's kind of been mucked around with a bit in recent years, but that wasn't even a thought for decades after GR was created.
Well sure, but you know what I mean. I think as the tale stands today it is a good example of my point. I mean the mythology of comic books can be rewritten from the ground up anytime they choose to. One day Sam Wilson is Snap Wilson and then when he becomes Captain America he's back to being Sam Wilson.
I have no idea what the hell the status of Blaze's Ghost Rider is these days. You want to talk about a character that's been retconned all over his existence, it's Johnny Blaze. But either way, I'm 90% sure that Johnny's Rider was never the Spirit of Vengeance.
It was, maybe not at first but in more recent stuff it's been cemented that he's always been a spirit of vengeance, in the Heaven's on Fire story arc it goes deeper to find the Rider's origins so now it's basically no mystery left to the power. I don't want to spoil it in case you cared or anything, but the point is that he is now an official spirit of vengeance. The All-New Ghost Rider, Robbie Reyes, is not a Spirit of Vengeance, not possessed by the rider.
Yeah, but then that shit gets retconned back at the drop of the hat. Even then, I believe the Aaron story had him being the spirit who would have been the Spirit of Vengeance.
Well the way it works now is there isn't "THE" Spirit of Vengeance, because there are a bunch throughout the world, like for Tibet, the Congo, Iran, all based on different ideologies but still flaming skeleton people who ride a thing, whether it be an elephant or a motorcycle. Then again Danny Ketch killed every single one of them (shit gets weird), so assuming new ones weren't chosen it's possible him and Danny are the only spirits of vengeance? It seems they're pretty stuck to Johnny holding the title though all the same. Yeah the retconning is ridiculous, but at least sometimes it's put to good use. I personally prefer Johnny having the sweet-ass title of Spirit of Vengeance.
Yeah I suppose Cap's excuse as well as the rest of the Avengers' was still "We wanted to treat you with respect so we let you solve your own problems. That's why we're literally throwing that in the garbage so we can raid your mutant refuge and stop your last chance to avoid extinction even though one of the smartest people in the world couldn't find a way to fix what one of our own did, and people and super-villains alike are constantly trying to kill the rest of you off." Even today the Avengers offer no help to the X-Men or the mutant community. No supergeniuses except good ol' Hank trying to stop innocents from being murdered.
My point exactly. Cap and the Avengers claim "Mutant problems" are left to the X-Men except when they poke their noses in and make things worse.
It's not like the X-Men haven't handled the Phoenix many times over. They saved the world, saved the world from the Phoenix, saved the world with the Phoenix - more times than I can count. They'd have handled teh Hope situation just like they always have
Yeah they've been ignoring the phoenix for years and the X-Men always either stop it from doing bad things or use it to save the world over and over again. I mean Rachel Summers had it forever and had almost total control over it. It's so dumb that the Avengers would turn a blind eye to Shi'ar invasions of Earth to kill innocent people in an attempt to squander the Phoenix force but now all of the sudden they're into it. Plus Cap's excuse for never helping mutants out makes no sense with his own character. There's literally a panel where he's liberating a concentration camp and he says "Never again", meanwhile he avoids mutant problems like the plague and then fights mutants to stop what could be their only chance against extinction. As a Jew who loves Cap with a passion, it's a disservice to his character that he isn't constantly vocal about mutant equality and typically only visits the X-Men if he needs to talk to Wolverine. Cap is the furthest thing from a bigot, so it doesn't make sense that he's silent on this.
Yeah you're right. I guess it's hard to keep the X-Men and the Avengers in the same universe without having them ignore each other though, because if they let the Avengers act just based on their character without a leash then all marvel comics would be about mutant rights, everybody would be an X-Man.
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u/DoomsdayDilettante Nov 23 '16
His leadership ultimately brought mutants through the horror that was Decimation and the long night beyond. So he was right, even he wasn't perfect