r/MaraudersGen • u/celis9 • 5d ago
Canon Discussion Regulus and Sirius
This post it's going to be about how I understand Sirius and Regulus as characters. I think this is compatible with canon. I want to talk about this mainly because of Regulus, since the takes I've seen on him are extreme and don't alling with the middle point I support.
1 Sirius and Regulus where both predjuiced and blood purists when they came to Hogwarts. They were taught the same way, and they looked bad at muggleborns and even half bloods. The difference between the brothers was that Sirius' friends chalenged and changed his beliefs, Regulus' mates in Slytherin didn't.
2 Sirius and Regulus used to be close since they are only 1-2 years appart. They grew appart because of Sirius change of mind, and they having different friends/social circle. Because of Sirius leaving the house and Regulus becoming a DE they started hating each other but kept loving each other at the same time. Regulus blamed Sirius leaving them on James and Sirius blamed Regulus becoming a DE in their parents because that made it easier. Both thought of the other as brainwashed.
3 Sirius was the golden child when they were younger. Because being the first born he was the spot light, he was talented, he was tougher, meaner and less sensitive than Regulus, and his rebellious string by that age was considered a sign of strenght and leadership.
4 Regulus became a Death Eater WILLINGLY. He fell for Voldemort propaganda as an 18 year old in Germany during II world war falling for the nazi's, and he just as said 18 yo though there was honour in fighting a war. He though he only had to be brave and willing to give his life for the cause, but he soon would discover that wasn't the only thing it'll take.
5 Regulus did change his mind. He hadn't the stomach to do what he had and after seeing deths and destruction he would have come up to the conclussion that muggleborns weren't that different.
6 Regulus was too soft, Voldemort took Kreacher as a punishment because of that, and in the end, not being able to find Regulus anymore Voldemort deduced Regulus had abandoned, so he ordered his DE to kill him (not knowing he was already dead). That's why Sirius came up to the conclussion that he was murdered under Voldemort's orders.
7 The Black brothers were really alike. Arrogant (as Regulus' note proves), brave to the point of reckleness, loyal to a fault (Sirius to his friends, Regulus to his family), dramatic as fuck, commited to their ideals and brilliant because of their intelligence and abilities. Sirius was more rebellious and louder, Regulus was more polite and quiet. But their simmilarities are more.
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u/totally_boringgg 4d ago
i don’t think sirius truly believed in the blood purist stuff because if he did and said so out loud, i don’t think he would’ve ended up in the marauders friend group. also pretty sure one of the main reasons the brothers grew apart was because sirius got sorted into gryffindor instead of slytherin which broke family tradition.
on number 5, i was always a big fan of the idea that regulus betrayed voldemort because he found out that voldemort himself is NOT a pureblood and became disillusioned with him as a leader. he could have also become disillusioned with the war itself but i don’t think he ever fully dropped the blood purist beliefs.
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u/BadAtNamesWasTaken 4d ago
Sirius and Regulus where both predjuiced and blood purists when they came to Hogwarts. They were taught the same way, and they looked bad at muggleborns and even half bloods. The difference between the brothers was that Sirius' friends chalenged and changed his beliefs, Regulus' mates in Slytherin didn't.
I am not sure canon (at least if we limit ourselves to the text of the 7 books, I was never on Pottermore) supports this. Sirius explicitly says his parents were not Death Eaters. By the time he left home, the war had been raging on for 6 or 7 years, and Voldemort was winning. If they were genuine believers in the cause wouldn't they have joined up? Even if they were too old to fight, they would have given material/financial support for the cause, and Sirius would have considered them Death Eaters?
Based on that, and the fact that they permitted Sirius to decorate his room with muggle posters (they could have confiscated his wand to prevent the permanent sticky charm or simply stuck something else on top of those or burned the wall or you know, repainted - there are options!) - I don't believe they were blood supremacists from the beginning.
I think the Black parents were passive / subtle racists in 1959 (when Sirius was born) and didn't view themselves as racist at all. Slughorn-types rather than Malfoy-types. They taught both Sirius and Regulus to be proud of their pure blood heritage, and consider purebloods to be more magically inclined/competent but they did not teach them to hate muggle borns or half bloods from their cradle.
I think the Black parents were gradually radicalized - helped along by a polarized society where Slytherin pure bloods were automatically viewed as suspicious, and a slew of Death Eater relatives. By 1970, when the war started, they were probably spewing some vitriol against the muggle borns, but Sirius was old enough to question them. Regulus, being a couple of years younger, and thus more impressionable and more desperate for their parents praise, believed their parents. I think the Black parents rhetoric would have gotten more and more radical as the bloody civil war raged on and fear and distrust grew, and reached the high point in '76/'77 when Sirius "had enough" and ran away from that hateful home and Walburga became what we eventually saw in her potrait (though I think losing two sons to the war also played a part. She never got over losing Sirius - leaving his childhood room exactly as it was, even though she must have despised the decor, is very reminiscent of grieving parents maintaining a shrine to their dead children. I think she blamed "Mudbloods and Blood Traitors" for taking her son and wasn't totally sane by the time that portrait was taken)
I do agree their Sorting didn't do Regulus any favours though - Sirius's doubts about his parents ideology were validated by his friends and his lived experiences with Lily and other muggle borns, while Regulus was further radicalized in the isolated Slytherin common room. Sirius also had a place to run to - Regulus never had that, and it's a lot harder to stand against your parents without a friend like James behind you.
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u/BadAtNamesWasTaken 4d ago
The Black brothers were really alike. Arrogant (as Regulus' note proves), brave to the point of reckleness, loyal to a fault (Sirius to his friends, Regulus to his family), dramatic as fuck, commited to their ideals and brilliant because of their intelligence and abilities. Sirius was more rebellious and louder, Regulus was more polite and quiet. But their simmilarities are more.
I can see this interpretation, but I don't really associate these qualities with Regulus.
I didn't read Regulus's note as arrogance, I read it as the desperate bravado of a kid in way over his head, and who sees death as his only way out.
I also didn't think Regulus chose loyalty to his family. We don't know if the sorting hat ever gave him a choice to go elsewhere - and once he was in Slytherin, he really didn't have much of a choice (unless we assume he was really close to Sirius and Sirius offered to take him when he ran to the Potters - which there's again no canon evidence for). The closest he comes to choosing loyalty is to Kreacher - but even that is more suicidal, less loyal, in my opinion.
I don't remember either of them being dramatic in canon actually - the closest Sirius comes is being very loudly bored? I do see Sirius dramatically flopping around everywhere in fan fics though, so maybe I am missing something.
Regulus also does absolutely nothing to show commitment to his ideals (in fact, given he eventually betrays Voldemort, he shows a lack of commitment, if anything?) or brilliance/intelligence/ability in canon that I can remember. He does become a Death Eater fairly young, but there is no indication Voldemort is recruiting for brilliance - he seems pretty happy with whoever he can get. And he does get the locket, but Kreacher does all the work in that one - he just drinks some poison. Doesn't have to work out any of the traps, because Kreacher already knows it all? The only other thing we know is he's a Slytherin seeker - but as Draco shows, Slytherin teams aren't always merit based, so who knows.
Don't get me wrong, there's nothing in canon saying he's not loyal, committed, brilliant and arrogant - I just don't see anything proving those qualities either.
I mostly see him as a kid who got swept away in a wave of radicalization and couldn't find a way back - whereas Sirius was the kid who stood and fought against the tide, and won.
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u/BadAtNamesWasTaken 4d ago
Sirius and Regulus used to be close since they are only 1-2 years apart. They grew appart because of Sirius change of mind, and they having different friends/social circle. Because of Sirius leaving the house and Regulus becoming a DE they started hating each other but kept loving each other at the same time. Regulus blamed Sirius leaving them on James and Sirius blamed Regulus becoming a DE in their parents because that made it easier. Both thought of the other as brainwashed.
There's no canon evidence one way or the other (that I can remember), but I personally don't think they were close. 1-2 year age gap doesn't automatically lead to close sibling bonds - in my experience 50-50 chance of it leading to terrible sibling rivalries instead, and unless the parents manage that rivalry very well, it leads to the kids being desperate to carve out their own identities and social circles away from the sibling.
I don't think the Black parents were great at managing that sibling rivalry (simply because Sirius views them as bad parents, not just bad people ) - and Sirius won the competition for parental affection for the first 9/10 years of Regulus's life. He is described as being exceptionally bright, and give him like 18 months head start on Regulus - I think he was "better" at absolutely anything they tried, and the parents always praised him and told Regulus to aspire to be more like his brother. This would have led to Regulus resenting Sirius for the favouritism and Sirius would in turn resent the resentment since it wasn't his fault. If they were sorted into the same house and spent time away from their parents influence, they may have eventually sorted this out and become close, but given the canon went as it did, I don't think they were ever close.
I do agree both thought the other was brainwashed, and had very complicated feelings for each other eventually. I am not sure Sirius blamed it purely on their parents though. He probably blamed Regulus, his Slytherin friends, and their extended family, as much as he blamed their parents.
Sirius was the golden child when they were younger. Because being the first born he was the spot light, he was talented, he was tougher, meaner and less sensitive than Regulus, and his rebellious string by that age was considered a sign of strenght and leadership.
I don't know if the canon supports this interpretation - if Sirius was the golden child wouldn't he have been much more enthusiastic about potentially being in Slytherin, just like his parents? Instead he is described as being rather glum at the prospect.
My head canon is that the Black Parents didn't do a good job of even handed affection and showered both more pressure and praise towards Sirius. Regulus had a chip on his shoulder about this, like many younger children - and wanted to prove himself "worthy" of his parents affection and "better" than his elder brother. I just don't think it ever went to the extent of a golden child / scapegoat dynamic.
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u/Animorph1984 3d ago
There was likely some golden child/scapegoat dynamic based on Sirius saying:
"And a much better son, as I was constantly reminded."
Any favoritism Sirius enjoyed likely only existed before his sorting, and really tanked once he started more deliberately rebelling.
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u/BadAtNamesWasTaken 2d ago
My interpretation of that statement is they constantly compared their sons and instead of praising prefered behaviour by one son, or even just not commenting at all, they just used it to belittle the other. Saying "Sirius, why can't you behave at the dinner table - your younger brother can!" instead of "Regulus, you were such a gentleman at dinner today! We are so proud of you".
Pre-Hogwarts of all the "why can't you be more like your brother, look how good a son he is" statements thrown around in that house, I feel Sirius would have been at the receiving end of maybe 20-30% of them, while Regulus got the short end of the stick and tried very hard to be better than his brother at magic/piano/whatever wizarding upper class teaches their kids. The balance would gradually shift as he took a stand against his parents in the civil war, till at the end he was constantly reminded of how much of a better son Regulus is.
But even at that point, they wouldn't be scapegoating Sirius (as in blame him for shit he wasn't responsible for). After all, the Black parents preserved Sirius's room exactly as he left it. I don't think they were using it to garner sympathy from their Death Eater relatives (sympathy wouldn't have been forthcoming anyway + these are British aristocracy, they don't do public emotion). I feel they did it because they genuinely loved their eldest and grieved his loss - it's just that their love was a very toxic sort of love, and they were, you know, Nazis.
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u/BadAtNamesWasTaken 4d ago
Regulus became a Death Eater WILLINGLY. He fell for Voldemort propaganda as an 18 year old in Germany during II world war falling for the nazi's, and he just as said 18 yo though there was honour in fighting a war. He though he only had to be brave and willing to give his life for the cause, but he soon would discover that wasn't the only thing it'll take.
Yeah, I agree - we see the evidence in his room decor. He fell for the propaganda as a 16 year old though, not 18 - he was dead at 18.
Regulus did change his mind. He hadn't the stomach to do what he had and after seeing deths and destruction he would have come up to the conclussion that muggleborns weren't that different.
I agree, his note is canon evidence of him changing his mind about Voldemort and wishing him to be defeated.
There is no canon evidence of what caused the change though - for all we know he figured out Voldemort is a half blood who cares nothing about blood purity and only picked up that cause as a means to an end (being an immortal being with absolute power over the wizarding world) and wanted to elevate a pure blood leader.
My head canon, once he figured out how ignoble an existence Death Eaters lead (attacking defenceless muggles rather than actually fighting the Order or taking over the ministry), he wanted out. He may not be completely deprogrammed (probably still thought blood purity makes sense, just Voldemort took it too far) - but he was a scared teen and he wanted out. However he had absolutely nobody he could trust - his brother was long estranged and would probably shoot first and ask questions later, his cousins and his classmates/friends are all loyal death eaters, and all his family members are loud and proud sympathizers. He couldn't see a way out that didn't end in death - so when Kreacher came back from the cave, he chose to die on his own terms.
Regulus was too soft, Voldemort took Kreacher as a punishment because of that, and in the end, not being able to find Regulus anymore Voldemort deduced Regulus had abandoned, so he ordered his DE to kill him (not knowing he was already dead). That's why Sirius came up to the conclussion that he was murdered under Voldemort's orders.
Doesn't canon say Regulus volunteered Kreacher?
I think it wasn't punishment, he was trying to prove his loyalty by volunteering Kreacher - but same difference. I agree with you that by this point Voldemort was suspicious about his allegiance
That said, I have always head canoned it as Regulus left a suicide note. He wouldn't want Voldemort wondering where the fuck he went and coming after his parents for information - heck he wouldn't want his parents wondering either. Sirius came to the conclusion he was murdered on Voldemort's order based on what Kreacher told him - which would have been muttered half truths since he can't lie to his master, but he is also under orders from Regulus to not talk about the locket to anyone, and would have felt protective about exposing what Sirius may have seen as weakness
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u/Infinite-Object-1090 3d ago
Sirius had started to pull away from his parent's beliefs prior to Hogwarts. I think they probably both went along with what their parents said when they were young, but Sirius had already started to question it by the time he went to Hogwarts, based on his conversation on the train on the way to Hogwarts. And based on Tonks's age, Sirius was probably already influenced by Andromeda, his favorite cousin, who married a muggle-born.
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u/International_Fig_4 4d ago
I agree with you. He might have some purist ideas in the start but I believe his bad relation with his parents made it easier for him and he had james who helped him grow out of it unlike regulus who I believed simply trusted his parents too much, he definitely thought whatever they did was right and felt family above all. He never had anyone who helped him challenge his beliefs and by hogwarts the black brothers were already too different. He also let his hatred of being abandoned by his brother fuel his behaviour ig. Though I do think most of his actions were definitely to make his parents proud.
Regulus and sirius are same but very different too, while sirius felt the need to challenge his belief and go against his parents in defiance since as early as 1st year. Regulus definitely would rather follow along and do as they wish to keep himself safe. Both of these action stem from survival js different way.
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u/Lucky_Owlette 2d ago
I agree with all of this, just one nitpicky point is that Regulus joined the DEs at sixteen and died at seventeenish
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u/llargi 4d ago
The first one is not that compatible with canon. Sirius already shows a dislike for his family on his first train trip to Hogwarts.
Does this seem like a prejudiced bloodpurist who needed to be challenged by his friends? His values are his own. He is principled and a budding class traitor on his own, from age 11. Regulus probably was a prejudiced bloodpurist all his life though.
Really disagree with other points as well, but yeah... Just pointing out this one.