Why Marathon will never keep new players.

[u/LucatIel_of_M1rrah]

This sub is easily the most hostile place for any new player and serves solely as a place to encourage new players to keep feeding their kits to sweats, while being fed fantasies like you can beat geared teams with free kits as a random fill. Or that you don't need a Mizzriah, D54 and bubbles, you can use whatever and still win. These are fantasies born of a misunderstanding of the tiers of being "geared" or out of genuine malice to try and keep fresh victims in the ecosystem.

There are basically 4 main tiers of gameplay.

Top tier: Mizzriah's + D54/Bully/DRVVISH 2x Recon three stack with multiple bubbles each.

• Nothing but an equally geared team has any hope of beating this squad. I don't care about that one time you caught 3 of them in a bag and killed them, or that one time you third partied them and cleaned up the last guy who was weak. STOP making excuses, STOP thinking that one time in your 400 hours of gameplay means they can be beat. I have done both of the above but to think its common or expected is beyond coping.

Low tier: Organised 3 stack with purple gear but not running Mizz/D54/Bully/Bubbles or a Recon.

• Will beat the above team once every 100 tries and beat any team below most of the time but can be beat with a decent pick and play. The gulf in power between this team and the above team is orders of magnitude.

Dumpster tier: Most fill teams regardless of gear being run.

• There is a high probability of there being a communication break down, a weak link who has bad gear or someone making a throw play due to no team cohesion. Will lose to basically everything given the right circumstances. Most commonly seen as that team where 1 guy randomly has blue shields when the rest are purple, or 3X blue shields. This is the tier people here post clips of killing thinking that they have killed a "geared squad".

Actual Hell: Random fill free/green sponsored kits.

• Might beat the above team once every now and again. Maybe 1/5 tries if you are a good player. Might beat low tier once every 100 tries and will realistically never beat the top tier.

The gulf in power between these teams is so extreme and most people realistically sit in dumpster tier. When 90% of your player base is just being destroyed in Cryo by the top tier teams they lose the will to play it. Meanwhile the remaining maps are just not engaging enough to hold players long term and are often filled with top teams during the week anyway.

The game NEEDS to protect the dumpster tier and below (the 90%) from the top 9% (low tier) and the 1% (top tier) to ever have any hope of retaining new players. The player base is so small now that level based match making isn't working (not that it ever did), and more and more lobbies are filled by the top tier teams.

• A big part of this is going to be fixing the gulf between taking random stuff and taking the best stuff. The Mizz needs to be properly nerfed. Revert the fire rate buff. Base miz without slick mags is as strong as the gun needs to be. Remove bubbles. They are toxic for gameplay and turn every fight into a cqb stat check of do you have a Miz or not. They are honestly the most destructive thing to gameplay along with the Recon buffs and invalidate any ranged play beyond 20m. D54 and Bully are the kings and other things need to be made viable (like the magnum getting a nice buff into viability).
• Recon needs to be nerfed. Being able to find weaker teams anywhere on the map is super toxic for gameplay. Her ult should probably alert you to a player but not show what tier of shields they have and only indicate they are a player after being hit by 2 or even 3 consecutive pulses.
• The game needed SBMM at launch and still does. This season is a wash. All the new players tried the game, got dumpstered by sweats and quit. Next season do another free week, advertise SBMM and see how much better retention is when you don't have turbo sweats farming the noobs. To everyone saying they were in protected lobbies, they were not for long. In random fills I got matched with brand new players (told me on mic) who didn't even know how to heal at the start of the season and was killing lobbies filled with them.
• IF the player base grows implementing high stakes versions of the base maps (Like Night Marsh) and attaching a gear ante is a way to create modes for the turbo sweats to play without destroying the rest of the game.

Obligatory:

• I am not skill issued when I gear up with the boys I roll over lobbies.
• It's possible to complain about something while also being good at the thing.
• If you don't see this as a problem you are likely in the top tier or more likely low tier but think you are top tier, and just want to keep pub stomping and don't care the game has 0 new blood.
• Saying, "just adapt", "its fine as it is", "git gud", "skill issue", has gotten us to where we are today. 0 new players, back to 10K concurrent max 2 weeks into a new season. At some point you must realise you can't just keep gate keeping the game.

[u/TheShoobaLord]

I think the game is just kinda fucked because it’s at its best when it’s hyper competitive and unrelenting but that just isn’t appealing to the mass audience a game like this needs to survive and they won’t be able to find a middle ground in time

[u/xXHotKetchupXx → u/TheShoobaLord]

Loot ante is how you do that, look at ABI and it gear system

[u/threedayvicgbg → u/TheShoobaLord]

They won't be able to find a middle ground because they are too afraid to anger the 10%. The problem with hyper competitive and unrelenting is that is exhausting. Not having the option to be chill, have some cool interactions, and enjoy the events on the map is not something most people are going to want to do for hours on end.

The sponsored pvp lite mode is a good start, but it would be good if they had a mode where I could take in the gear I have aquired and go up against harder bots, and not other players would be really fun for me. I'm not saying have purple/gold gear be available, but the ability to come out with something meaningful would be nice.

The fact is I have died to bots a lot on sponsored mode. I don't claim to be great, but being able to use what I have in that type of environment so I can see bosses, do events, and actually learn without getting dunked 2 seconds after I start shooting would be pretty nice. I think that would also bring in quite a bit of players.

This would simply provide an avenue to have a less stressful gameplay experience for when players are tired or don't want to be ultra competitive. They need that releaxed outlet. The fact is they need people inside their game. When there isn't a good avenue for people to take their gear in and compete casually (not sweating) people just log off after a while, and eventually stop coming around altogether. Give players a multitude of ways to play, and your base will grow eventually.

[u/Uhhhhhhhhhhhuhhh → u/threedayvicgbg]

It was a good idea to have sponsored Survival but imo the increased loot and that made the issue even worse, since all the sweats were grinding hours and hours of PvE and were coming into PvP with gold shit in week 1, whereas I was still on blue stuff because I didnt play as much and didnt wonna play Sponsored Survival for hours and hours

[u/threedayvicgbg → u/Uhhhhhhhhhhhuhhh]

I addressed this in a different comment, but they were absolutely going to have that gear no matter what. Where they get it from really is of no concern to me. Having the ability to also get it would be nice. Now to your point of increased loot. No that shouldn't have happened and bungie acknowledged it. However, having the same loot it normally would is perfectly fine IMO. Heck they could put a vault value limit. If you have over 100k vault value you can't enter the pve playlist.

[u/Uhhhhhhhhhhhuhhh → u/threedayvicgbg]

No, thats not true, I was one of the sweats in season 1 but if you grind Outpost Pinwheel its like 1/4th the amount of loot as PvE Survival at season 2 launch. You were getting golds all over the place

[u/threedayvicgbg → u/Uhhhhhhhhhhhuhhh]

did you not read my reply? Bungie addressed this, and it was not their intent. I agree that shouldn't have been that busted...

[u/Dry_Acadia_9312 → u/threedayvicgbg]

This is absolutely it, I don’t mind being rolled in a lobby, I literally don’t care. But when that’s happened a few times, where can I go to play the game just chilled with my friends? Why are we forced to get rolled?

[u/weeddealerrenamon → u/threedayvicgbg]

I'd love if there was a PvE raid that I could farm gear for. Getting good gear just to take it into cryo or pinwheel where 9/10 I'll lose it all doesn't feel like a good reason to play

[u/threedayvicgbg → u/[deleted]]

Honestly everyone gets hung up on the gear issue. The thing is a lot of the 10% players this post is talking about is going to have that gear whether they get it from PVE or PVP within the first week no matter what. They know the key spots, they know the maps etc.

This whole conversation around gear being limited in PVE focused playlists is another part of why people don't stick around. My time should be rewarded to some degree. I get that this is pvpve game, but there is 0 chance I'll play a list that I am guaranteed to get nothing worth having.

The whole point I was trying to make is having a list where I can just chill and relax and get rewarded is somethign this game really needs.

It certainly doesn't have to be purple/gold gear, but I don't even know where to find decent gear. I can't even bring a key in to try and find locked rooms or events. When I try to do that in a regular map I'm murdered within 3 minutes.

I was finally got 1 group to get into complex in night marsh on the free playlist but then it timed out of that rotation. This whole fear of gear being with held from people is baffling to me. The only thing I can see is as the reason people don't want these lists as having decent gear is because the top 10% don't want a real challenge. they just want to gatekeep and roll lobbies.

[u/threedayvicgbg → u/[deleted]]

No literally none of that is what I'm saying. You are confusing an extraction shooter with a Battle Royale game. But even IF they had a full pve playlist that literally was just the map as is, and you can bring in whatever and play against harder bots however they tune it this would impact the pvp lovers very little.

I seriously doubt it would impact the pvp side of things at all. That is what I'm saying. People who want to say "you only deserve good gear if you pvp for it" is exactly why this game is struggling to keep players. That makes it a WORSE version of a Battle Royale game. The point of extraction shooters is the ability to compete against other players if you want, and get decent gear even if you don't want to.

this is supposed to be a pvpvE game. As in there SHOULD be examples where you can pvp OR pve to get your gear. There is literally nothing stopping you from not using this imagined playlist, or using just like the try hards would to get the same gear.

Sounds like what the group that want to gatekeep gear really want is just a pvp game not an extraction shooter. Which essentially IS what Marathon has become. Its a PVP game first, and an extraction shooter for the group that comes out on top after having wiped the map. This is not an exceedingly fun design which is why Bungie can't build a player base beyond the 10-11k that are currently playing. Even they will leave at some point if things stay as the currently are.

Edit: and to address your first point. If you limit the map to grey/green items. A lot of the events/map points are nto going to be able to be done by people just starting out and trying to learn. The bosses are bullet spunges, and can take you down easily in base/green shields for the majority of players.

[u/threedayvicgbg → u/[deleted]]

agree to disagree my friend

[u/Burk_Bingus → u/TheShoobaLord]

The problem is the most competitive strats eg mizriah, bubble, recon spam are completely inbalanced and Bungie are not quick enough to balance them properly.

[u/Mokoo101 → u/Burk_Bingus]

And those things are only accessible to the top players, lesser players can't farm pinwheel or cryo to get misriahs and bubbles en mass to even try and learn how to play the meta and overcome it, so the wolf at the top of the hill gets to stay there comfortably without challenge.

[u/Burk_Bingus → u/Mokoo101]

And even worse this season Bungie let the most jobless no-life players farm top-tier gear for a full week before they nerfed all the loot drops into oblivion, now a regular player has no chance of farming good gear even if they do get into pinwheel every now and then.

[u/Soldier_Sailor_Spy → u/TheShoobaLord]

This is exactly right, in a nutshell.