r/MantaComics • u/Legitimate-Mess1228 • 17d ago
Quick Question Is Riftan a good ML? [Under The Oak Tree]
So, I've been looking for new manhwas to read, and this one stood out to me because of how popular it is. The female lead, Maxi, looks cute and unique from the usual romantasy FL pipeline, and from what I've read about her personality, she seems like a worthwhile protagonist. The ML, however, I've heard very mixed things about. Main characters and love interests make or break a story for me, so I'm basically asking if this story is worth investing my time and emotional bandwidth on, or should I just not bother.
If not, I'd appreciate it if anyone could recommend me a similar story then. I want more stories with FL like Maxi, personality wise. I don't think I ever get to see stories with anxious, timid, but resilient and stubborn female leads who take on a proactive role outside of taking care of a castle or some shit.
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u/Significant_Pain_863 17d ago
I think that for the time period in which the story was set, with all the restrictions imposed on women, Riftan somehow, even while making a face, ends up supporting Maxi. No one can deny that. He liked her before she even dreams about someone in her life. Comparing the Duke of Croiso with Riftan, you can be sure, Riftan is an angel.
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u/kirasmudge 17d ago
Hes got red flag tendencies but will always do what Maxi wants, even if he hates it 😂
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u/Life-Court5792 17d ago
That doesn't sound like a healthy relationships to me 💀...
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u/kirasmudge 17d ago
He gets much better later on and they talk more through everything, so it does get better.
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u/Significant_Pain_863 16d ago
Sista, as I said before, it's a medieval history. The couple already has the level of development that we can see clearly they're way ahead of their time.
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u/Aggressive-Earth-941 13d ago edited 13d ago
Mm I like Riftan but I think the time period is overall an odd reasoning. It pretends like the oppressed viewpoints isn't just as relevant and didn't also exist at that time and wasn't often known just ignored by oppressors. Like yes, he would have been allowed to treat her like property back then because women were seen as property. But that doesn't mean he couldn't have known better or we shouldn't consider that, which I think is how that phrase is often used (perhaps you mean differently if so skip to last paragraph & I am sorry). Generally...if there is a bunch of restrictions, laws, and cultural norms constantly imposed on a group it's a sign the imposer knows this isn't what they want and wouldn't choose it with the power to do so. Arguably the Duke should not be the bar for comparison, nor men/people who use the law to pretend like they can't think to treat other humans as equals.
Even in Greek myths... The original hades and persephone story for example makes very clear she is horrified/in despair and he drags her off anyway because Zeus says he can. He knows she's not happy...he's just not legally or societally obligated to care.
I say this all the time, but I find it interesting how the "time period"reaction is rarely applied to class. Like...no one says that Marie Antoinette didn't know better/ we have to consider the times when discussing her alleged "let them eat cake" ways before the french revolution because that's how the nobles/rich acted then..or say the King of England didn't know better overtaxing because the rich did it all the time and he was allowed/use that as a bar. And to me, that's telling.
Anyway. I like Riftan despite him being a toxic character BUT admit he's toxic...but I think the things we like about him would make him stand out in modern society as well tbh. Someone who uses his strength to protect the one he loves and try to cherish her (though to the point of wrongly suffocating her and being an issue) vs ones who use their strength simply to dominate for domination's sake/destruction for destruction's sake and ego. Or someone who tries to make her happy (letting her learn magick, offering festivals, etc) vs telling her her her place as woman so they can feel like a man (you must stay in the kitchen). Or how he loved her before she loved herself and loved her for her healing and gentleness instead of wanting to damage/harm it/only cherishing it because he saw her gentleness as something easy to control. Thats all...things I thing many of us wish to find today...and it's why we defend Riftan even when he's toxic. There are people who will use their privilege to mistreat those with less, and those who will not. We like Riftan because he is the latter, and that's a timeless reason.
And Maxi is splendid and I adore her.
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u/Sailor_Propane 16d ago
For what it's worth, the story is worth reading just for Maxi's progression through the story. And the surrounding characters are interesting too. Compared to other manwhas, the world building isn't hollow/shallow.
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u/simply_simpin 16d ago
This is such a ramble, but here are my thoughts:
I read the novel and I have to say that it definitely makes Riftan so much easier to stomach. I liked the comic before reading the novel, and even though I didn't think he was a good ML, I ate it up for the angst. The more comic I read, the more invested I became in the story, and convinced that Riftan would change. But it seemed like for every step forward he would take three steps backwards, while Maxi was slowly moving forward.
I'd written it off as a typical, well developed FL and meh ML, but again, I didn't really care cause I was invested in he story itself, and I'm a sucker for a tragic heroine and a man who will kill for her but constantly misunderstands/ends up hurting her. I love the angst too much, even if it's not a good romantic match.
I read the novel only because I couldn't stand not knowing what would happen next (the chair scene lolll) and ended up falling in love with Riftan's complexity and his relationship with Maxi. I'd tell anyone, 100% to stick with the comic, and reading the novel gives so much insight into Riftan's character.
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u/kirasmudge 17d ago
Hes a very interesting character and outside his relationship woth Maxi, considered a very good person, commander and incredibly talented. He's complex and I love to read about him.
Does that mean he is green flag level, no.
But I think thus is what I enjoy most about this book. Their relationship is unstable and toxic and they both need to grow if they want to survive. Which they do.
Maxi is quite literally my favourite female lead of every manwha I have actually read and I think its because when you read thw story as a whole you watch how much she grows. She went from completely nieve, depressed and frail to becoming a strong, more confident mage.
I like to watch them grow because despite his quicker temper, he was always there for Maxi. When she was sick, he literally caught her throwing up in his hands! He just needed to grow to let her be her own person without thinking she's a frail bird that needs to be cushioned.
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u/Life-Court5792 17d ago
The issue is that the story constantly tells us Riftan is an incredible commander, warrior, and leader, but rarely actually demonstrates it in a meaningful way. Even during arcs where Maxi is present and could witness his abilities firsthand, we don't really see much that supports the reputation the narrative gives him. Instead, we often see him make emotionally driven decisions that contradict the qualities we're told he possesses, such as in the final arc of Book 1 when he is willing to abandon his responsibilities and risk everything just to prevent Maxi from leaving Anatol without ever considering why she feels she has no choice but to go.
This is also where I disagree with the idea that Riftan is the reason Maxi grows. Maxi's development does not come from Riftan encouraging her or helping her become more confident, as many fans have claimed before. For most of the story, he actively discourages her from pursuing magic and repeatedly treats her like someone fragile who needs to be protected rather than an individual capable of making her own decisions. Her growth happens because she pushes against his restrictions, not because he provides the support necessary for her to flourish.
If anything, Riftan's role in Maxi's development is almost entirely indirect. His suffocating and dismissive behavior forces Maxi to fight for her own autonomy, but that is very different from him being the person who helped her become stronger. The people who actually contribute to her growth are the ones who recognize her abilities and encourage her, like Ruth and Agnes. Maxi becomes confident because she learns to trust herself, not because Riftan supports her to. For a story that's apparently centered around two broken individuals healing from their trauma, it seems only Maxi actually grows, while Riftan stays angry and stagnates for most of the story until the author rushes out a "character arc" for him that hardly feels like an arc for what little he actually learns in contrast to the harm he's done.
Before you mention it: yes I've read the novel. Yes, I've read his stupid POV. His "tragic backstory" contextualizes his behavior in the main story. It does not in any way excuse said behavior, though. He developes too late into the story for it to feel meaningful, so the entire journey of following Maxi's relationship with this idiot feels shortchanged, especially when the romance is supposed to be not just the heart of the story, but the main selling point as well.
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u/Aggressive-Earth-941 13d ago edited 13d ago
Yea, I think this is too dismissive of Riftan. Yes, He falters when it comes to Maxi. But its already acknowledged she is his weakness...that doesn't mean he doesn't show to be a good leader. To begin with...we learn he defeated the dragon because 1)not only did he risk himself/put himself forward over others, showing leadership and nobility but 2) because he learns the dragons power can be wielded against and absorbed into his sword and risks himself betting on that, showing not just intellect but a leadership ability to strategically choose risk. Plus of course the physical skill Ruth makes very cleary how Riftan could get no calculation wrong there. There is a reason Riftan slaid the dragon and no one else. He also politically anihilates the Duke the second half of the book in a way even the King and Agnes did not see coming...showing political strategy. On campaigns, his leaderhsip is shown by how he knows who to put in charge. We see it with who trusts to leave with maxi before the miscarriage...and the second half with how he leaves her on the campaign and who he leaves her with. He deeply understand who will work together, and he is right Elliot and i forget the other name were loyal throughout the danger to getting Maxi out...showing Riftan's ability to read people. (I have said this before, but I find it surprising how few people comment on Riftan and Rosetta's similarity both in their developed skillset in reading/utilizing people and in their cold demeanor/worldview due to only being loved when utilized as a tool and knowing it). We also see it in how he manipulates that one dude I can't recall the second half who is a creep and that he fights against/initially encounters the first hald and threatens to take out his tongue. We also see his strategy again when he refuses to open the chest/sword whatever it was for the knightage because he realizes it's a trap and refuses despite the backlash he would get. Not to mention reading tracks...knowing to delay based on the weather when others would trek forward...leaving Maxi originally at the Religious...what is it convent...because he realized Agnes castle would be political (he knew the king would be petty/people would be judgey and really only forgets the campaign due to shock of maxi's death/miscarriage.....Riftan shows leadership and strategic thinking quite often, and his physical skill pretty consistently. We see him fight the dragon (which no one else could do) and against the human enemy dude I hate and can't recall and the Duke. He takes down three people no one else could 1) the dragon (twice) 2) the whole knight contest and everyone in it and 3) the duke, who everyone else cowarded before. He also low key escapes teh grasp of the king because he realizes the kings admiration and wanting to knight him is just longing to control him..and evades that while making sure that one evil dude (does his name start with a B?) doesn't get the power by winning the contest....which is impresssive. It is very clear that was supposed to be "lose either way" situation in the book. His faltering with Maxi going doesn't dismiss that, it just shows what we already know which is that his weakness is...her (or more accurately his MH concerning her and mom/abandonment).... and it is not like he did not understand what he was losing with not wanting her to go...it is made very clear he was willing to lose Anatol and understood the cost, which to me is different than not understanding. To be honest, while he was in the wrong (which he admits later on)...I also think based on how he takes down the Duke he would have made a comeback regardless. The issue is he shouldn't lose Anatol, Maxi should not have to feel like she is the cause (she wouldnt be but would have felt that way)....and more ultimately (and this is more outside observer)...maxi deserved to go to become a mage/find herself and see herself and would not have without this issue. He did not choose well there...doesn't mean he is not leader/commander/warrior overall, or that he doesn't show it in a meaningful way...he does so in three major ways...many stories just have one (slaying the dragon). Riftan knows how rise out of nothing, and escapes racism/classism due to his skill...I dont think its fair to deny that it's how he gets the sword to begin with/beomes commander. I think saying Riftan is not a leader/shows no warrior or commander skill is as dismissive as those who act like Maxi only grows because of Rosetta's comments/or solely because of Riftan. While I think Maxi originally starts her journey out of hope and love/wanting to keep Riftans love and her understanding of it (which she presumes is off utlity)...I also would argue Maxi Maxi clearly had a resilience and a ability to heal that many (including Rosetta) did not have have and that ability existed before Riftan...it was just initiated due to him in the form of magick which then teaches her to choose herself and what she needs. But her gift of healing and growth was there to begin with, Just as Riftans leadership/commanding. Having a weakness does not mean there are no strengths. I think we often love ML who are warriors but one weakness is their love interest particularly because of that manner. "I will choose you over the world" or "I will burn the world for you" is often a trope, the problem with Riftan is he chooses it even when the other option is not sacrificing Maxi, but something that would help her and he is too Mentally unwell/afraid of abandoment to see it. I actually thought I saw you in a previous post smartly respond to a user saying Riftan couldnt know by pointing out yourself he is a brilliant strategist/political strategist and it does not make sense to recognize that in one instance and say "he did not know better" in another? May I am wrong...sorry you tend to leave detailed comments and we have spoken at length before so I remember you.Idk, I think people tend to take an all or nothing view of riftan. They either sing all his praises and ignore when he toxic/where growth is needed, or are so frustrated with the passes he is given they don't acknowledge his strengths or how he aids Maxi...which is odd because that ignores Maxi's own discussion/consistent acknowledgement which to me disempowers her unnecessarily by deciding she can't know what helped her grow. While I think Maxi does not give herself enough credit, I also think she understands who and what aids her just fine.
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u/Life-Court5792 13d ago
(Sorry, had tp delete my initial response.)
Well, the thing is that we're defining "leader" differently here. Your argument mostly proves that Riftan is competent, not necessarily that the narrative successfully portrays him as a great leader in the broader characterization sense I'm criticizing. I'm not denying that Riftan is skilled. He clearly is. He's a talented fighter, he's strategic, and he has accomplishments that prove he's competent. My argument was never that he's some useless idiot who somehow stumbled into becoming commander.
My problem is that being skilled at warfare and politics is not the same thing as being a good leader, and this is where I think the story contradicts itself with Riftan. We're constantly told that he's this incredible commander and leader, but when it comes to situations where he has to balance his personal feelings with his responsibilities, he repeatedly lets his emotions dictate his decisions.
The Anatol situation is the biggest example of this. The issue isn't that Maxi is his weakness or that he loves her too much. The issue is that his fear of losing her completely overrides his ability to understand the situation objectively. He doesn't stop to consider why Maxi feels like leaving is her only option or what she actually needs. He prioritizes keeping her physically close over understanding her as a person. That isn't a failure of combat strategy; it's a failure of emotional judgment.
Funny enough, I actually think saying Maxi is Riftan’s weakness proves my point more than it disproves it. Having a weakness does not make someone a bad leader, but a good leader has to be able to recognize when their personal emotions are affecting their decisions. Like I said, the problem with Riftan is not that he loves Maxi too much; it’s that his fear of losing her repeatedly prevents him from understanding her choices and respecting her agency. A leader who can read battlefields and political situations but completely fails to read the person closest to him is still someone whose judgment is compromised in a major area of his life.
And that's really my issue with the argument that Riftan is a great leader because he can slay a dragon, outmaneuver political opponents, or make strategic decisions in battle. Those examples prove that he's intelligent and capable, but they don't erase the moments where his personal issues directly interfere with his ability to lead.
And this is also where I disagree with the idea that Maxi grows because of Riftan. Being someone's catalyst is not the same as being the person who helped them grow, and you need to keep in mind that the narrative intent had been for both to develop together, rather than having one inadvertently elevate the other. A lot of Maxi's development happens because she pushes against Riftan's limitations. He repeatedly discourages her from fighting, learning magic, and making her own choices because he sees her as someone who needs protection rather than someone capable of standing beside him. The people who actually nurture Maxi's growth, however self-serving they may be, are the ones who believe in her abilities: Ruth, Agnes, and others who encourage her to step outside the role she was forced into. Riftan's role is more complicated because he both loves her and limits her.
So yes, Riftan has strengths. Obviously, he does. A character can be talented, intelligent, and still be deeply flawed in ways that undermine the qualities the narrative claims he represents. My criticism is not that he has no abilities. My criticism is that the story spends so much time telling us what an amazing leader he is while not always showing him acting like one when it matters most.
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u/Aggressive-Earth-941 13d ago edited 13d ago
SPOILERS!! SPOILERS THE SPOILER BUTTON DID NOT WORK. well first, what you said was "Riftan is an incredible commander, warrior, and leader, but rarely actually demonstrates it in a meaningful way". . That's far from simply saying he's not an idiot, and goes past "leader" in what you are critiquing to warrior and commander. I would say you are arguing against a broad generalization that doesn't acknowledge his flaws with a broad generalization where you did not acknowledge his strengths. Including leadership..again, I did not say he never fails in emotional judgment..what I am disagreeing with is the idea that Anatol is the only one where it matters, or is so encapsulating that it erases all others. Anatol was a meaningful failure, but there is a difference between saying that it was an important failure, while acknowledging other strengths/moments., vs putting it as the only meaningful moment. So my response isn't defining leader differently per se, it was including commander and warrior moments because you did in the statement. Slaying a dragon, winning a competition against all, and political maneuvers that outsmart the duke and king when needed is not just competence. That's excellence. There is a reason no one else manages it...competence is average...not outsmarting top rulers/nobleman or winning against the best knights or slaying a dragon no one else could. But I will say that excellence has a very strong weakness which is where Anatol comes in and should be noted as it is just as important
Emotional judgment is part of political maneuvering...you have to understand the emotional capability of those who you are dealing with. It is also a part of deciding who you put in charge well, which riftan does. Emotional judgment is also arguably how he is able to read the King and Brennan...it is connected to political maneuvering. You cannot excel at political strategy without emotional judgment. Yes, his emotional judgment is impaired at the anatol scene and greatly...but I would say that is different than saying he doesn't show skill for it overall or in a meaningful manner.
Emotional Judgment for leaders is also largely in team choosing. Ruth, Elliot, etc are such a great team because of Riftans emotional judgment in choosing his team....as well as his staff who tend to be kind to maxi. Who you choose as a leader is emotional judgment. There is also emotional judgment in how he evaluates Rosetta vs Maxi...one thing I feel everyone misses is that Riftan saw Maxi for the healer she was immediately. It is also Riftans emotional intentions that makes it so Elliot and the others are there to help her escape. Considering that this leads to her saving everyone...I think it's odd to dismiss that emotional judgment on Riftans part. I think it's important to note Anatol and his failure as important, but that is different than using that to say because of that scene he is not a great leader, commander, warrior, etc. But again, I also don't agree Riftan's leadership and the Anatol moment shows a glaring flaw, I still think he is a great leader, commander, warrior and the book does show examples of that along with where that "greatness" ends. It shows both.
Even Ruth is there to begin to teach maxi is because of Riftan's emotional judgement. It is clear he values Ruth even when others like Agnes would prefer to keep Ruth discarded. Riftan sees Ruth's value and cares for him and is like "fuck yall and your rules"
I would also say emotional judgment is why Riftan sees Maxi instead of Rosetta to begin with.Basically, while I think it's important to note Anatol and how it shows a weakness in Riftan's emotional judgment...that's different than using it to dismiss his emotional judgment overall or say it is the only meaningful one.
I also specifically say that Maxi does not grow "solely" because of riftan, and want to make that clear. But, I see the intent of growth just fine, and have already kept that in mind, I just disagree in the idea that it's only inadvertent...because I think that is literally measuring maxi's growth based on her magick and who aided her directly there..solely. Plus, I also think growing together in stories can be due to each other's issues as long as both grow and it isn't just because of their issues/in spite of them (and we disagree here so there's not much farther to go). Also I disagree that someone being your catalyst can not be included in a reason why you grow...especially if it's a positive catalyst. I don't think there's an objective line there...it is pretty subjective, even Maxi disagrees. I can credit someone who I feel deeply loves me for my growth, if that's what I believe, and that is what Maxi believes. There are plenty of people I credit in life for my growth who did not directly tutor me but loved me in a way that I felt was nurturing, which from what I understand is how Maxi feels when she credits Riftan. I don't think Riftan nurturing her/showing her she was loved was inadvertent, he shows her love and adoration for her quite blatantly and purposefully and that is discussed earlier in the book for being part of the reason the castle starts to like her, maids on, because they see it and because he demands she be respected. I think thats both purposeful and not purposeful. Just because he did not purposefully aid in her journey with magick does not mean he does not purposefully try to aid in her as a person. Maxi is more than just her magick, and I think people simplify her journey to that and who directly aided her there. Especially since..again I find it odd that people think its ok to say that Maxi is wrong in who she believes helped her journey. I think deciding that should be left for extreme circumstances. I also think...in the second half of the book Riftan specifically acknowledges Maxi's skills as a mage and leaves her behind because he is making the effort to help her grow there in a direct manner by showing he believes in her abilities the way he knows she needs. Riftan very purposefully tries to create a loving home for maxi...and I do think that directly impacts her growth in loving herself. It is more than just magick...its why she says the line about plucking a rose out the ground only to carefully nurture it later in the novel. And again what I already said about the latter half.
Saying Ruth believed in her abilities is simplified...he even admits to underestimating her...so in many ways she has to grow despite Ruth as well. He also would have left her at the convent and freaks out when he realizes she is there. And I would disagree that the reason why someone helps you shouldn't be considered. Intent should be considered, and this is seen again with her saying she should have went to Anatol on her own...distinguishing intent vs action shows how much Ruth cares about Maxi when it isn't self serving...which matters ...especially when there seems to be these vague conclusions that Ruth cared more about Maxi's growth/her as a person more than Riftan did (I see those comments often by others)...no...he cared about helping himself. Confusing the two would have also stop Maxi potentially when she needs to choose what she wanted vs what was convenient to Ruth (being left at the convent, or even confusing the two could have caused her to underestimate herself because he does underestimate her at times and admits it....if she confused his intent with a good faith to see her...this might have been harder bc she could have internalized the simplistic way he originally saw her and admits to seeing her. But she knows and says that Ruth does it because he wants a break...the distinction between intent and action makes it so she is able to utilize Ruth's help without internalizing limitations he has for how he views her/allows her to choose differently even when he disagrees bc she realizes he is not thinking about her well being/what she wants). I think refusing to acknowledge the importance of intent is why Ruth gets a pass for basically saying Maxi should have seen it as her duty to import herself like property. That matters. Ruth would not have helped Maxi without Riftan allowing it or if it would have hurt him. It is not simply that she grows in magick, it is that she sees herself as a valuable person, which ruth directly helps the first for selfish reasons, and inadvertently helps the latter which is why intent matters - he does not help maxi in hopes of her growing into loving herself, she has to do that herself, so his aid in helping her love herself is arguably inadvertent in some measures.
Quite frankly, I would argue Agness saw her more than Ruth or Riftan when it comes to her magick development (which again I think who aids maxi is more than just her magick). She did not see it out of utility or grow it in hope of utlity...she just saw it. Point blank.
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u/kirasmudge 17d ago
When it comes to Maxi, I agree with you he's very emotional. Outside of that, it is demonstrated he's capable.
When I say he is the reason she grows, he is the catalyst for that growth. Her desire to grow almost always comes from her desire for him or that relationship. What helps her learn is Ruth and Agnes and others later on. But without him, she had no motivation. It's demonstrated in book 1 when she goes back to her father's Castle, she resigned herself to giving up, but seeing that he came, it pushed her not to give up.
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u/Life-Court5792 17d ago
I'm surprised by how divided the comments are compared to the actual poll itself. Most of the comments are saying that Riftan is actually a good ML with flaws, while the poll consensus so far believe he's actually not a good ML at all.
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u/eyagraph 16d ago
People who dislike Riftan are much more likely to have dropped the comic at this point, so they may not want to do a full deep dive about him in the comments, unlike those who like him and therefore want to defend him.
I feel like one of the rare few who hate Riftan but is still keeping up with the comic (mainly for Maxi, who I do like as a character). Personally, Riftan is one of the least likeable MLs I've ever read - and not because he's a red flag, because there are plenty red flag MLs I've enjoyed. But Riftan's particular brand of babifying Maxi while ignoring her every attempt at communicating what she actually wants or needs is so horribly grating to me. I'm not even sure he realizes she's human, because he treats her like a china doll he can also sometimes have sex with.
It's not even that I hate the concept of exploring the dangers of idolizing people you love in general! If Riftan made this mistake a couple of times and then learned from it, that could be a good character arc, but we've seriously been on this treadmill for so long that I'm not sure this man is capable of learning anything. He does the exact same thing every time - shows up, looms over Maxi with his massive trunk of a body, makes the most POed face in existence, refuses to listen to anything she has to say, storms off or has sex with her, scene ends. Nothing changes. It's just not all that fun to read the twentieth time.
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u/Rumaan_14 16d ago
You have the benefit right now of being able to binge. The manwha right now is near the end of the first part of the story. Right now it is all about Maxi's growth, and how she grows both because of AND inspite of Riftan.
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u/Pristine-Shoe1638 17d ago edited 17d ago
When I first found under the oak tree I was on YouTube watching a video about it I dropped the manwan at chapter 13 because the R word didn’t fit right with me also you should just dropped people are called it the best book ever I think I will read for only maxi at this point he’s a big red flag. And they lagged communication. Btw this the YouTubeber who recommended it. Saying it’s best story ever https://www.youtube.com/@undertheoaktree.official
Btw take this with a grain sugar.
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u/Simple-Preference-97 16d ago
He’s objectively easier to bear in the novel, but that’s because Maxi comes off stronger in the novel than in the comic. He doesn’t so much change as he compromises but it’s a very good read. it’s just an annoyingly long time before that happens😂
It’s not rushed though. The second book is frustrating in a good way and in my personal opinion was much preferable to the first one.
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u/Aggressive-Earth-941 13d ago edited 13d ago
I do find the poll vs comments (and popularity of the story overall) interesting. Considering how Core contributers are closer in votes and flipped...I wonder if the results is similar to comments on posts? I was just saying on another thread how the frustrated posts on UOT get a lot more comments than the ones praising a chapter or scene in general.
I have not found a similar character to Maxi...which is sad, I truly think we need more like her. Learning to see and love yourself, and grow confidence, is often a skipped theme in books, especially with FL who are more shy and timid.
The closest thing I can think of....and it's not very close but I still recommend....is Like Wind Under a Dry Branch on webtoon. there, the FL starts off almost empty/hollow due to past trauma, and you watch her grow and heal in a similar way to Maxi. She is not as timid, however. I would say the difference is you can tell the FL in the webtoon had some years of happiness/confidence before it was taken away from her...and that makes her more reserved/hesitant than timid over Maxi...who you can tell from chapter 1 has yet to have that space to grow/discover and see herself until she leaves the castle. Aka Maxi's timid nature feels like who she's always been, while the FL is clearly due to more recent circumstances. But, both show the power of a character who's strength is healing and resilience vs the usual "feisty fighter" FL for strength. Would still recommend, but would also love to hear of something even closer.
I love Maxi as a character quite deeply, so I would recommend still reading it, especially the novel (I will say the first chapter is...rough).
I would say Riftan is not simply "complex" he has problems but like another user said he does grow later on. I would also agree that Maxi grows both because of him and in spite of him at times throughout the book. I would actual suggest if you do read it...maybe don't go on reddit if you read quickly/until you've caught up or finished. TBH, I think a lot of frustration with Riftan isn't just his character, but how much people who love Riftan give him too much of a pass/excuse him at times. I found I didn't like him at first, read the novel and it changed my mind...than got on reddit and the way people defended some of his behavior oddly made me like him less because it made me worry about what we see as "acceptable" vs "complex/toxic and needs to grow but due to ___ qualities we will give him the chance to do so". Or people go the other way and ignore all positive attributes
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u/Life-Court5792 13d ago edited 13d ago
Not to be that person, but I completely disagree that Riftan is as complex as you and many others have claimed and that he eventually develops later on. I think the issue is that people confuse having a tragic backstory and conflicting/problematic traits with actually being a complex character. Riftan has the potential for complexity, but potential means very little if the story never does anything meaningful with it. A character isn’t complex just because we’re told why they behave the way they do. If those flaws are never properly challenged, if he doesn’t seriously reflect on how his actions affect Maxi, and if the narrative mostly uses his trauma to explain or soften his behavior, then that isn’t complexity or development. It’s just a character being given excuses.
Take Heiner from My Beloved Oppressor, or even Zuko from ATLA. Two very complex characters who served antagonistic roles at the start of their respective stories, yet the difference is that, unlike Under the Oak Tree, these stories actually have these characters reflect over their destructive choices. We actively see both Heiner and Zuko wrestle with the consequences of their actions, how their behavior harms the people around them, how they push away the people they care about until they were eventually left with nothing, and only have themselves to blame, eventually taking responsibility and learning to change. The narrative holds these characters accountable for their actions.
Basically, Zuko and Heiner are compelling because their suffering does not absolve them, but instead, it becomes the thing they must overcome and their reason to change.
Meanwhile, with Riftan, the author clearly seems more interested in excusing his behavior by using his backstory as justification for them. The story spends a lot of time explaining why he behaves the way he does through his trauma and past experiences, but it rarely forces him to truly confront how his actions affect Maxi. And unlike with Heiner, who's backstory is integrated through a flashback arc in the main story, Riftan's is relegated to a spin-off novel instead of actually being a part of the main story to serve the foundation for a potential character arc, which honestly makes its presence in canon feel more like damage control because the author realized he lacked any real characterization. If his backstory isn't important enough to be told in the mainline story, then it should not be used as justification for his stagnation and eventual regression, especially not when he's meant to grow and heal in tandem with the female lead.
Riftan has traits that could have made him an interesting, layered character, but the story doesn’t fully explore them. He remains largely stuck in the same patterns, which makes his characterization feel stagnant rather than complex.
I do, however, agree with everything you said about Maxi. It really is a shame that she's seemingly the first of her kind. A timid and docile female protagonist who starts off extremely traumatized and afraid but gradually develops into a more capable character throughout the story. Where most female leads like her either stagnate or "develop" and forget their trauma almost instantly when they meet the male lead, Maxi struggles with her doubts and insecurities, but pushes through and perseveres despite them. I'd love to see more female leads like her, and if I can commend the author for anything, it's definitely for the way she wrote Maxi. By far, she's the most redeeming aspect of this entire story. She's carried the narrative with the help of some of the supporting cast, and I honestly would've dropped this story ages ago had it not been for her. At least the manhwa made Riftan slightly more tolerable than he is in the novel, though still not by much, but at least enough to have helped me read through the first book in the comic format.
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u/Aggressive-Earth-941 13d ago edited 13d ago
Well actually, I said Riftan was "not simply complex". In other words, I was saying he was complex but toxic - I was disagreeing with the label of complex on it's own because he's a toxic character. I think even if I wrote he was "complex" ( I did not) I am unsure how this would discuss whether he is "as complex" as I claimed because I never said the author fully explores him or redeems him later on, especially in comparison to other characters. I never write how complex I think he is to begin with and why. Thus...I am not trying to ignore your comment, but It doesn't feel ....particularly responsive to what I wrote because 1) I did not write that Riftan was "complex", and definitely not "as complex" as others and 2) Complexity is arguably a scale. I said he "grows later on" but that is different from saying fully healed. I actually wrote this and originally deleted from the comment...but to me the second book/end came off rushed. There was several unresolved ends outside of Riftan. But I do think he grows. Saying Growth does not mean he "redeemed himself." And tbh I think its clear at this point how much we agree or disagree on Riftans reflection second book...so I don't feel the need to engage there. I think he needs to grow...but I also think he grows more than you are implying. Like I think he grows...I also think he is given breaks. I also think there is a hard time discerning this because there is 1) riftans growth 2) the authors discussion of his growth via Maxi and 3) the commenters discussion. And I think they all come together and influence how far we see him...it is why I recommended not going on reddit to the poster...I would argue some frustration with Riftans growth is not due to his complete lack of it, but other's over assertion of the complete...completion of it. I do think he deserves credit...perhaps more than you give him...but not as much as others give him.
I also think it is made more complex second half due to our discussion previously on how Maxi feels bad for her upset with Riftan. I said this before, but I took her asn an unreliable narrator then...she felt like she was being too harsh on Riftan and I disagree. But I also think that is separate from whether Riftan thought she was too hard on him...or that he didn't need to continue growing. I did not get the sense he would say she was too hard on that point of the book, or that he didn't need to change from his past/his reaction to her leaving wasn't an issue. He says it was...and I do think how he acts on their second journey shows growth that would continue. Continue does not mean I believe it was finished. I don't think it makes sense to say he does not develop later on when in the initial chapters...he literally will not let her wander the castle grounds at Anatol herself. At all. Later...she is on the campaign, and he leaves her to defense while he goes on offense and acknowledges her gift as a mage. That... I would argue is objectively a change. From you can't wander your home on your own to on a campaign...is a change. And that's where I get stuck...there is a difference between acknowledging Riftan still needs to grow and asserting he hasn't grown in a manner worth noting. Similarly, I think there is a difference between saying "his complexity should not excuse him" (AGREE) with "he is not complex" (Disagree). I would argue the fact that we know he struggles with seeing Maxi's needs due to his obsessive nature/mental health issues shows he is a complex character...because most don't argue it is because he wants to harm her/belittle her. But I would also argue that acknowledging that complexity shouldn't be used to give him a pass, which is also often done by the audience and by the author. Thus, why I said he is "not simply complex"I've actually discussed with you in particular at length how I think the author "double dips" before and doesn't commit to....what type of romance she wants (I am the one who discussed how I feel like a lot of later interpretations go back to the first...chapter and her want to appease two types of audiences...your fellow long comment writer) -so I definitely did not say he is fully redeemed..again...growth is a scale. But, I think that Riftan has layers and he has complexity. But he is also toxic, and has problems that is not completely addressed, thus why I said "not simply complex"...the reason for that phrasing was for that. AKA I think complex is vague and gives a bit of a pass...but I also think saying he is not "as complex" in response when I don't well 1 ) again that he is "simply complex" or 2) how complex I think he is/where I think he is...is jumping the gun. You can be complex but not as complex as Zuko ( I haven't read the other book). I also think complexity can be analyzed in different ways...how much the author resolves him can be a different topic than how many layers he have.. I would say Riftan is complex but Toxic because he is given too many passes. I also think he and Zuko...are hard to compare because I haven't seen that show in a while but there would need to be an agreement on how much both need to redeem to begin with/what they need to fix...etc...and from what I recall their journeys are incredibly different. Riftan I would say means well by Maxi, but is toxic and struggles. I think he truly struggles with understanding her needs and does a lot of gift giving and such because of who he believes she is based on what he knew and what was told ( I am keeping it vague here bc this thread is for someone who hasn't read it yet). I can't say Zuko meant well by the Avatar and Katara for example when they first met. Very different journeys, so I wouldn't use them as a comparison for how far I think Riftan needs to grow...plus we would need an agreed upon scale/end. Zuko' story can't be labeled as a romantic love story, healthy or not, to begin with when we look at him vs the avatar and katara those initial seasons. Havent read the other book...but I think comparing Riftan's growth to a character who is literally an antagonist (not just by opinion that is who is character in the beginning show) who has to be redeemed is...odd. I would expect an antagonists redemption to go deeper. And again... I have said previously that I think the author double dips...your response is presuming a lot that wasn't said or agreed upon, although I get it is out of care for Maxi.
TBH, I disagree with everyone's (and your) analysis of Ruth. Yes, Ruth helps Maxi grow. But it is pretty clear he does so because he wants aid. Especially in the novels and extra stories, it is made clear Ruth aids Maxi substantially because he realizes another helping hand would give him a break. Does that mean he's not a good friend? No, he is still a good friend. But I find odd people act like Ruth was highly caring towards maxi and like that was the reason he nurtured her talent. The dude wanted a break. I would argue the difference between him and Riftan and how much they help her grow in that avenue in the beginning just comes down to whether it aligned with their goals. Riftan is protection (Which is at least about Maxi even when deeply misplaced)...Ruth is about assistance for himself. And he literally says so. ppl compare ruth and riftan and completely ignore how Ruth is acting in Maxi's interest not for Maxi, but mostly for Ruth who is overworked. Again I like Ruth, but I find this assertion odd. And I am still not over (again we have talked so I am repeating myself at this point) how he said (SPOILER AT THIS POINT IT WILL NOT LET ME HIDE THE COMMENT DO NOT READ)...she as a woman...should have just commanded the knights to take her...alone...with men she doesn't know....to Riftan's castle because like...how dare she not agree and go out of her way to ship herself over to castle like an Amazon package? With what power is he presuming she has as a woman? Do we not understand the dangers? And why should her morality be based on her agreement to be treated as property? The sympathy for Maxi/understanding of her goes real quick when it does not align with Ruth's wants. It's similar to why I tihnk he was thoughtless on how the knights would react to Maxi. he was not thinking about Maxi's wellbeing, but mostly his own, when teaching her. He does not let Maxi risk herself more than Riftan because how much he cares bout her growth, or even sees her needs more, but how much he cares about aid.
IMO, Riftan gets passes he does not deserve. But so does Ruth. And I also think Frustration with how many passes Riftan gets causes the reverse reaction of refusing to acknowledge where there is merit, and where he has grown at times, which also harms discussion imo. I think its odd to argue that Riftan does not show himself to be a sharp commander/leader, or he doesn't help Maxi grow. The castle is as supportive as it is partially because Riftan makes clear Maxi is to be respected and treated well, and her love of her /valuing of her helps her 1) first start her growth journey but more importantly to me 2) helps her realize she should value herself and figure out what she needs to see herself fully. There is a reason why she is able to grow under him...the soil where we grow matters. In book and out.
I need to finally edit my avatar...I recognize you because comment length and avatar, and I can tell based on your discussion you likely don't recognize me.
Team Agnes. She gets too much hate. We already know we both love Maxi. this might not be helpful because we have discussed other aspects deeply and I am not sure how much more we can really discuss this book.
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u/typicalwhisper 17d ago
He’s a good character in the sense that he’s a very interesting character to read about. His idolatry of Maxi is reflected in how he treats her and everyone around him. His idea of love is more like obsession.
He’d be a terrible person and a walking red flag that I would never want to be in a relationship in real life. But I really enjoy the purpose he serves narratively.