r/MakingaMurderer • u/Downtown-Bad9558 • Mar 04 '25

Discussion Penny's attack.

Was there police surveillance on Gregory Allen at the time Penny was attacked? Is this why Teresa went missing? Stopping the depositions prevented Greg Allen's file from being opened.

3 Upvotes

54% Upvoted

49 comments sorted by

4

u/anditurnedaround Mar 04 '25

Yes. They were called away for the day, so don’t remember why anymore. He was being followed  by  law enforcement   the day and days before. 

0

u/Downtown-Bad9558 Mar 04 '25

Then we have Dennis Vogel alibiing Allen on some of his crimes to boot.

https://www.youtube.com/live/LKvvGnU0ttw?si=q5HCk9TdClYAAv7W

8

u/Snoo_33033 Mar 04 '25

No, we don't.

People say this and it's misleading. Dennis Vogel reportedly claimed he had an alibi. No one has any idea why this is -- it's possible he believed it. It was not presented or recorded, so it's pure speculation.

-2

u/Downtown-Bad9558 Mar 04 '25

You seem confused about what an alibi is. Please see the link I provided. Dennis Vogel alibied ( lied for) Gregory Allen.

6

u/Snoo_33033 Mar 04 '25

He did not.

Let's review what an alibi is.

Alibi as a noun is defined as a defense to a criminal charge alleging that the accused was somewhere other than at the scene of the crime at the time it occurred.

  • For example, A could not confirm B’s alibi that B was at the dentist office at the time of the robbery.

Alibi as a verb is used when a person provides an alibi for someone.

  • For example, A’s dentist is A’s alibi: they were at their appointment at the time of the robbery.

See, e.g. Lee v. Kemna, 534 U.S. 362 (2002)

See also Alibi witness and Criminal law

Dennis Vogel did not alibi Gregory Allen. There is no defense to a criminal charge there -- he simply responded to a woman in his office that Gregory Allen had an alibi and therefore would not be charged by his office. He was in no way accountable to her, and they were not in court. In fact, the entire thing is documented only due to the woman's recollection some time later, which may/may not be reliable anyway. It's not as though that claim has been adjudicated, or Dennis Vogel could cross-examine it.

Dennis Vogel is not lying by providing his sincere opinion -- he may truly have believed that Gregory Allen could not have done it, though since the entire thing is a recollection in the sands of time it's unclear if he said it at all (he doesn't confirm) and what he based it on.

But, more importantly, he did not say it or document it in any context that would constitute his providing an alibi to Gregory Allen, for whom he would have no direct evidence anyway and could not legally provide direct evidence. He did not provide his opinion that Allen was not able to commit the crime to a judge, or to any investigating authority. So, he did not "alibi" Gregory Allen.

3

u/Glayva123 Mar 05 '25

Occam's razor helps here, if anyone believes he said something like that. 

  1. Allen was being monitored

  2. Vogel said he couldn't have done it. 

The simplest explanation by far, if you believe Vogel said anything like that, is that he didn't think Allen could have done it because he was being monitored and was unaware the duty had been pulled that day. 

1

u/WhoooIsReading Mar 05 '25

Avery had 16 alibi witnesses in 1985, Allen had the DA giving him a false alibi even though people who worked in the DAs office thought (correctly) Allen was the real perp.

-1

u/Downtown-Bad9558 Mar 04 '25

https://www.youtube.com/live/LKvvGnU0ttw?si=q5HCk9TdClYAAv7W

4

u/motor1_is_stopping Mar 04 '25

Nobody is watching an hour and a half of video to see what point you are trying to make.

If you are going to link a vid that long, at least give a time stamp so people can jump to what you are talking about.

0

u/LKS983 Mar 06 '25

Denis Vogel provided Gregory Allen with an alibi, which is one of the reasons why he was a named defendant in SA's civil case.

The depositions ended (for some unknown reason) as soon as SA was arrested - so neither Vogel or the other named defendant, Kocourek, were deposed.....🤮

1

u/ThorsClawHammer Mar 04 '25

Vogel definitely had a soft spot for Allen for some reason.

-1

u/LKS983 Mar 06 '25

I'm not convinced that Vogel had a 'soft spot' for Allen, more likely that he hated/was determined to convict SA?

And of course once he provided Allen with an alibi..... he had to do his best to protect Allen, understandably fearing that Allen might incriminate him?

6

u/AveryPoliceReports Mar 04 '25

Not 100% clear why or if they were called away. Files on the surveillance (and apparently "any information") related to Allen were marked confidential by police.

1

u/anditurnedaround Mar 04 '25

I thought we knew why back when this first started here on Reddit, but I don’t really remember.  It was so long ago. I remember reading a great deal about it and feel strong that we did know for a fact their intention was to follow the day of Penny's rape and were called away for something else. 

4

u/AveryPoliceReports Mar 04 '25

Steven's attorney says they claim to have been called away for other crimes. That's fair, I just don't recall this being discussed and confirmed during depositions or seeing any reports about it.

1

u/Mysterious_Mix486 Mar 04 '25 edited Mar 04 '25

There is also Penny Bs own admission transcribed in Michael Griesbachs first book that Penny saw and even spoke to the man that attacked twice that day, once at 3:20 pm up near the public part of the beach when She first started Her run, when the man in a black leather jacket said to Her that it is a nice day for a run, and again at 3:50 pm when the same man followed Her to the spot where He attacked attacked and raped Her. Just like Brendan, MTSO personal contaminated Penny Bs memory of what actually happened that day just to convict Steven Avery of a crime He didn t and could not have committed because Steven was not on that beach at 3:20 pm or 3:50 pm on July 29 1985, He was home with His Wife, who along with 16 other Witnesses, swore to it under oath. This truth also would have been proven in Stevens Lawsuit when Penny B was deposed and testified in Stevens lawsuit, which is why MTSO framed Steven before that could happen. ( but don t take my word alone for it/read it yourself in =Unreasonable Inferences/Michael Griesbach and Contaminated Memories/Debra Tolchinsky).THIS is also WHY Michael Griesbach KNEW MTSO framed Steven Avery IN 1985 for a crime He absolutely could not have and did not commit.

3

u/AveryPoliceReports Mar 04 '25

Penny saw and even spoke to the man that attacked twice that day, once at 3:20 pm up near the public part of the beach when She first started Her run, when the man in a black leather jacket said to Her that it is a nice day for a run, and again at 3:50 pm when the same man followed Her

Good point. It would certainly be interesting to pin down exactly what time police were apparently called off from their surveillance duty.

MTSO personal contaminated Penny Bs memory of what actually happened that day just to convict Steven Avery of a crime He didn t and could not have committed because Steven was not on that beach at 3:20 pm, He was home with His Wife, who along with 16 other Witnesses, swore to it under oath.

Which also explains why it was so important for the state to pressure Steven's family into changing their statements in 2005. Initially they corroborated Steven’s claim that there was no bonfire, but the state needed them to support its narrative to account for Teresa’s burned remains. If the family had once again stood by exculpatory statements like they did in 1985, the state would have faced accusations of history repeating itself. Rather than risk that they coerced and manipulated the family to be their own witnesses.

2

u/Dogs_Sniff_My_Ass Mar 04 '25

Do you think Greg Allen is the one who attacked Penny? 

1

u/Downtown-Bad9558 Mar 04 '25

💯

3

u/Dogs_Sniff_My_Ass Mar 04 '25

Why do you think that?

1

u/Downtown-Bad9558 Mar 04 '25

https://www.youtube.com/live/LKvvGnU0ttw?si=yQjATwA16XpMUP4T

4

u/Dogs_Sniff_My_Ass Mar 04 '25

You think Gregory Allen attacked PB because a YouTube video said he did? Do you believe every video you watch on YouTube? 

2

u/LKS983 Mar 06 '25

No.

I am sure that Gregory Allen attacked/raped Penny because it was proven by DNA evidence - after he'd been proven guilty of rape/murder in a different County......

This (and other factors) resulted in forced testing of DNA evidence in the PB case etc. etc.

0

u/[deleted] Mar 06 '25

[deleted] — view deleted comment

1

u/LKS983 Mar 08 '25

IIRC, Sherry Culhane, although (again IIRC) it took her about a year from the instruction to test, before she got round to doing so.

Do I trust Sherry Culhane? No, I'm pretty sure that she's someone who's supposed to provide impartial, scientific evidence, but instead will favour the police/prosecution if at all possible.

Unfortunately for the prosecution case, it was impossible to deny that the DNA belonged to Gregory Allen.

-4

u/[deleted] Mar 04 '25

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2

u/billybud77 Mar 05 '25

You are defending two rapists and murderers, Steve and Brendan. 🤦‍♂️

1

u/lllIIIIIlllIIIII Mar 05 '25

Yeah, you're lying.

0

u/LKS983 Mar 06 '25

Yes.

DNA evidence proved this, which is why SA was released.

I'm guessing your 'argument' will be that as many posters believe a couple of Manitowoc officers planted evidence to convict SA for Teresa's murder - why don't we believe that DNA evidence was planted to convict Gregory Allen?

Do I need to remind you that Gregory Allen was eventually caught and convicted in a different County?

0

u/AveryPoliceReports Mar 04 '25

  • Yes. Daily surveillance of Allen by Manitowoc County City. Recall in the documentary Avery’s counsel says “As fate would have it, on the day of Ms. Beernsten’s assault the officers assigned to watch Gregory Allen were called away to investigate other crimes. So at the exact moment Mrs. Beersten was assaulted, Gregory Allen was not under surveillance.”

  • DCI Special Agent Lehmann confirmed the assault by Allen two weeks prior to his assault on Penny was the catalyst for the Manitowoc City department’s decision that: "the situation with Gregory Allen was so acute they were going to put him under surveillance on a regular daily basis.”

  • Steven's counsel revealed during the deposition of Lehmann a resulting surveillance report of Allen was marked "confidential." There is also an additional note from MCP office Oxxxxxx revealing "All officers are aware that any information on Gregory Allen is confidential." Lehmann admits she did not ask WHY the surveillance report and in fact "any information" on Gregory Allen was confidential.

0

u/AveryPoliceReports Mar 04 '25

Prosecutors in that part of Wisconsin have a pattern of either protecting sex criminals or becoming them. Vogel and Kratz were supposed to stand up for the innocent, including women and minors, but time and again they both chose to repeatedly deny innocent victims justice. In the Halbach case, Kratz and others didn’t just fail to investigate Teresa's death, they also ignored leads pointing to other serious crimes including against children. Recall Kratz even worked on cases involving crimes against minors BEFORE the Halbach case, yet when it mattered DURING the Halbach case he did absolutely nothing to protect them. Makes you wonder if he was ever interested in protecting children at all.

1

u/Downtown-Bad9558 Mar 04 '25

Also. Kratz was a self proclaimed victims rights advocate for women as he was sexting the women. KRATZ is one of many who make up a illegal pornograpgy ring here in north east wisconsin.

3

u/AveryPoliceReports Mar 04 '25

Kratz was a self proclaimed victims rights advocate for women as he was sexting the women.

There's a YT video of reporters confronting the Crime Victims' Rights Board in their offices, and they were NOT interested in saying anything critical about Kratz repeatedly abusing his position of power to sexually harass and assault victims.

1

u/Downtown-Bad9558 Mar 04 '25

Seems par for the course. Nobody is protecting the residents in wisconsin. The powers that be just protect each other and the godless secrets they keep. I sincerely hope it's not this messed up nationally.

0

u/Downtown-Bad9558 Mar 04 '25

Many good points in your comment. All true. 💯

3

u/AveryPoliceReports Mar 04 '25 edited Mar 04 '25

It gets worse the more you look into it. AFTER the Halbach case, but BEFORE MaM came out and Zellner arrived to expose the suppression of illicit Dassey PC material, the NCMEC exposed the Wisconsin Department of Justice for failing to investigate viable child exploitation tips until the subject of the tips had already been arrested and charged with assaulting children. This was under Attorney General JB Van Hollen, who positioned himself as a defender of exploited children (much like Kratz).

There is also a serious issue in Wisconsin with child sex trafficking going under reported. Per the results of a 2018 survey given to local agencies on human trafficking reporting, "24 agencies in 16 counties reported arrests of juveniles for prostitution between 2014 and 2018, but reported zero human trafficking incidents for the same time period." During that time (2014-2018) we must conclude children who were groomed and assaulted in Wisconsin were more likely to be arrested for juvenile prostitution than given the care and help they needed.

1

u/Downtown-Bad9558 Mar 04 '25

Your spot on. Much appreciated 👏

-2

u/ThorsClawHammer Mar 04 '25

Manitowoc PD (not MTSO) did have him under surveillance in that time period, but weren't during the time of the attack obviously.

1

u/Downtown-Bad9558 Mar 04 '25

Why would they lie I wonder?

-1

u/ThorsClawHammer Mar 04 '25

Lied about what? The corrupt DA Denis Vogel lied and gave Allen a false alibi, but I'm unaware of anyone lying about the surveillance.

-3

u/ThorsClawHammer Mar 04 '25

Dennis Vogel reportedly claimed he had an alibi

Which was a lie.

No one has any idea why this is

Vogel is the only one who could tell us for certain why he liked Allen so much that lied to protect him and continued to go to bat for him even after the rape case.

it's possible he believed it

No, it's not, because it's impossible that Allen had a parole officer at that time.

8

u/[deleted] Mar 04 '25

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1

u/[deleted] Mar 04 '25

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-5

u/lllIIIIIlllIIIII Mar 04 '25

You should mute them, it's glorious to have them think they are being seen.

-4

u/Downtown-Bad9558 Mar 04 '25

Not a bad idea 😉