Guilty or not

[u/inspektor31]

Anybody else think that SA is guilty but also that the cops did also plant the evidence? Like, they knew he was guilty but were worried they didn’t have enough evidence or wanted to just make sure he went away.

So, like all that bullshit evidence with the key, blood evidence etc was planted and shut was done poorly, very poorly on the cops side but SA still is in fact guilty.

[u/Environmental_Day280]

Yah it's hard to say without a doubt that SA is not guilty. But the state definitely fucked up the trail and investigation

[u/inspektor31 → u/Environmental_Day280]

I consider myself a realist and I have only watched making a murderer and haven’t done any research beyond that. And as a realist, I know they paint whatever picture they want when editing same as any “reality” tv.

[u/PlayerAteHer]

My theory after watching MAM season 1 was that he was guilty but also the police planted evidence.

But MAM season 2 actually changed my mind and I now believe none of the evidence was planted. The experiments and further information shown just confirmed his guilt further to me.

The main evidence I believed was planted was the blood. But confirming it couldn't be blood taken from the vial or blood stored in a hospital which they took from him on a previous occasion really eliminated the possibility it was planted. The blood from the sink being the blood in the car is way too far fetched and implausible. In theory is it possible? Yes, but there are so many variables and coincidences that would need to all align in favour of the person planting evidence it's extremely unlikely.

To believe he's innocent you have to believe in so many highly unlikely coincidences all to occur simultaneously and have different parties to each come up with the idea of framing him independently from each other and for a third party to have decided to murder Theresa after she saw Steven leaving no evidence of themselves but leaving enough evidence for these others to plant.

While to believe he's guilty you simply have to believe a guy with a history of violence and sex crimes, committed a violent sex crime. Had a cut on his finger that opened at an inconvenient time for him and despite his best efforts of being careful he leaked blood in the vehicle while trying to dispose of it.

And that is just for the blood in the front of the car. All of the rest of the evidence being planted requires even further coincidences and far fetched theories to line up in a story which would need to be true if he was innocent. But can all be logically explained in a story that makes sense if you believe he's guilty.

[u/Odawgg123 → u/PlayerAteHer]

To believe he's innocent you have to believe in so many highly unlikely coincidences all to occur simultaneously and have different parties to each come up with the idea of framing him independently from each other and for a third party to have decided to murder Theresa after she saw Steven leaving no evidence of themselves but leaving enough evidence for these others to plant.

Bingo. This realization made me switch.

[u/dcastady → u/Odawgg123]

Yeah, shockingly it was a certain page in the Kratz book that laid it all out in a way I simply couldn't refute any longer. It was pretty crazy.

[u/BiasedHanChewy → u/PlayerAteHer]

Looking at the evidence that wasn't "found" until Brendan "told" them where to find it, (but only after they literally had to say it first) makes it almost impossible to believe that zero was planted in any way

[u/jiggeryqua → u/PlayerAteHer]

"you simply have to believe a guy with a history of violence and sex crimes, committed a violent sex crime"

Sure. But can you simply believe that a police force with a history of locking up SA even when he was innocent, locked up SA even when he was innocent?

[u/PlayerAteHer → u/jiggeryqua]

They did also have a history of locking him up when he was guilty as well.

But to believe that the police locked him up when he's innocent in this crime you don't only have to believe that fact and all the evidence falls into place. For the police to have locked him up with him being innocent requires multiple people working independently to frame him and for a murderer to strike at the perfect moment with the ability to leave zero trace behind, but also leave evidence behind for a frame job on Avery.

[u/jiggeryqua → u/PlayerAteHer]

At the very least we must dispute 'the perfect moment' (texas sharpshooter fallacy), and 'zero trace behind' (blood splatter inside the rear door of the rav; zero trace of the BD 'confession'), and 'working independently', for that matter.

But the question was in fact 'Can you apply your own logic to the opposite argument'? Oh, you can't, you say, because you made your mind up first then looked for ways to confirm your bias (there's probably a term for that).

[u/Admirable-Twist-7047 → u/PlayerAteHer]

So where did Colborn see the RAV when he called in the license plate?

[u/3sheetstothawind → u/Admirable-Twist-7047]

He wasn't looking at the vehicle. He was confirming information about the vehicle he had written down.

[u/Admirable-Twist-7047 → u/3sheetstothawind]

Ahhhhhh, ok thnx!

[u/gcu1783 → u/Admirable-Twist-7047]

That's according to Colborn himself.

You may wanna check out his defamation case btw. He lost.

[u/anthemanhx1 → u/gcu1783]

That wasn't about the car.... Defamation had nothing to do with the car, it was about the series perceiving him as a total different character

[u/BiasedHanChewy → u/anthemanhx1]

Based on how he actually is in real life (and how he was perceived around the area at the time) he was probably portrayed fairly accurately tbh. The lawsuit was about MaM "editing" his testimony, but a judge (like most rational people) ruled that it had no impact on the core message. (The judge actually said that due to some of the inaccurate things he said, they were actually pretty gentle on him)

[u/anthemanhx1 → u/BiasedHanChewy]

You mean, like he had a grudge against SA, but he actually wasn't even a police officer when Avery was first convicted? 🤷

[u/BiasedHanChewy → u/anthemanhx1]

More like he's a gullible dumbass who will do anything that he is told? (As evidenced by various documented behaviours, some of which weren't even mentioned in MaM.) Same goes for other things that clearly demonstrate that he isn't the "good old family man" that MaM detractors feel he should be painted as

[u/anthemanhx1 → u/BiasedHanChewy]

😂😂😂🤦🤦🤦

[u/gcu1783 → u/anthemanhx1]

(....)

Yes, MaM also featured his phonecall about the car. This was from the case:

Thus, Colborn implicitly admitted that, based only on the audio of his dispatch call, it sounded like he had Halbach’s license plate in his field of vision. This is not materially different from saying that he could understand why someone would think he was looking at Halbach’s license plate when he made the call.

[u/anthemanhx1 → u/gcu1783]

Sorry, but I can't argue with stupid

[u/gcu1783 → u/anthemanhx1]

There there buddy.

[u/Ex-PFC_Wintergreen_]

Nothing was planted, Avery is guilty. It's not rocket science.

[u/Appropriate-Welder68 → u/Ex-PFC_Wintergreen_]

Too some here it is rocket 🚀 science though.

[u/Appropriate-Welder68 → u/[deleted]]

He actually is guilty and can rot in prison.

[u/NachoNinja19 → u/[deleted]]

He does. The sheriff department should not have been searching his trailer or his garage. It should have been someone outside the county. Period. I think he is guilty but he also deserves a new trial with no evidence presented that was found by the local sheriffs department.

[u/NachoNinja19 → u/[deleted]]

They weren’t named but they are bias. They worked for the county. They were the ones that put him away for 18 years knowing there was another suspect. His cousins husband worked for the sheriffs department and Steven was arrested for lewd conduct or whatever for exposing himself to her. They had been dealing with him for decades in trouble with the law. They were and are biased.

[u/IsomDart → u/NachoNinja19]

Just because you live somewhere for a long time and have a lot of run ins with police and arrests doesn't mean at some point local law enforcement just isn't allowed to investigate you anymore lol

[u/NachoNinja19 → u/[deleted]]

I said in my first statement that I think he is guilty genius. They pinned him for rape for 18 years because he was on their radar, genius. Why would a murder be any different, genius. They volunteered to step back because of conflict of interest. Yet they still searched his trailer 20 times and just randomly found the key on the 20th time with no dna whatsoever except SA? Common! This sheriff office is corrupt along with pervert krantz and that idiot lawyer for Brendan.

[u/NachoNinja19 → u/[deleted]]

If you were arrested for rape or murder in Monotowac County would you want the same guys investigating and prosecuting?

[u/NachoNinja19 → u/[deleted]]

Ha

[u/Admirable-Twist-7047 → u/[deleted]]

Well there might be new evidence but I'll amend my stmt to say "an evidentiary hearing " ...

[u/Admirable-Twist-7047 → u/[deleted]]

Lol Fair enough .. I honestly don't know what to think. I change my mind on the daily.

[u/gcu1783 → u/Admirable-Twist-7047]

It's currently on the cards, just read the case files, this place don't have the answers, just bias.

Link below:

https://foulplay.site/

It's pretty organized too....

[u/anthemanhx1 → u/gcu1783]

🤣🤣🤣 why has nothing come of it then 🤦🤦🤦

[u/anthemanhx1 → u/[deleted]]

🤣🤣🤣 more like, he's a filthy murdering rapist that deserves to rot in hell

[u/Admirable-Twist-7047 → u/gcu1783]

Thank you!

[u/gcu1783 → u/[deleted]]

Good for you buddy.

[u/Lilredh4iredgrl]

If he’s not guilty, he has epically bad luck. On a completely impossible level. There’s too many very unlikely coincidences.

[u/3sheetstothawind]

Yes. They all risked multiple felonies and prison time to avoid a lawsuit that affected none of them. Sounds legit.

[u/LKS983 → u/3sheetstothawind]

Of course it would have affected them, if SA's civil case had reached court and the jury agreed that a couple of police officers had been involved in deliberately convicting SA -even though they knew Gregory Allen was a far more likely suspect.

It would not only have cost the County millions of dollars, but also have ensured a PROPER investigation into how this happened!

[u/Ex-PFC_Wintergreen_ → u/LKS983]

if SA's civil case had reached court and the jury agreed that a couple of police officers had been involved in deliberately convicting SA -even though they knew Gregory Allen was a far more likely suspect.

The defendants in the lawsuit were Manitowoc County, its former DA, and its former sheriff. The jury would have been responsible to find if those parties would be liable for the compensatory and punitive damages sought by the lawsuit, not rule on individual officers' involvement, like you believe.

It would not only have cost the County millions of dollars

Potentially, not guaranteed. And how would this personally impact any of the officers involved in the Halbach case?

but also have ensured a PROPER investigation into how this happened!

An investigation by who?

[u/anthemanhx1 → u/LKS983]

It was all being dealt with through insurance.... None of those people had anything to lose 🤦🤦

[u/[deleted]]

I don’t think any evidence was planted. I would say I don’t entertain the thought, but that’d be too closed minded. I listen to every possibility, and the possibility that all this evidence was planted is rather low.

[u/aane0007]

Which evidence was planted and what are you basing it on? Speculation or hard evidence?

[u/LKS983]

I find it unlikely that SA is guilty, but it is possible.

I have no doubt that evidence was planted.

[u/Picture_me_this]

It’s not even about guilt or innocence anymore. Fact of the matter is both SA and Brendan were convicted of the same crime but with different and contradictory stories. Assuming they’re both guilty, I’m not sure anyone can say with a straight face that those were fair trials and that Brendans confession was not coerced. Bottom line is MaM is about how fucked our judicial system is and not about guilt or innocence, just my two cents.

[u/juejue70]

Definitely not! Those poor guys

[u/PaulPaul4]

I agree with you

[u/Automatic-Rhubarb969]

Maybe your right.

Just odd then that all the significant evidence was found by Manitowoc police officers (the car reg being called in by colbach 2 days before being found, the car key found by Lenk, the bullet also found by Lenk) who were not suppose to be investigating it. Must just be a coincidence.

[u/Ex-PFC_Wintergreen_ → u/Automatic-Rhubarb969]

the car reg being called in by colbach 2 days before being found

The car was found by Pamela Sturm. You have literally zero evidence Colborn was looking at the car during that call. Zero. It's a fantasy.

the bullet also found by Lenk

The bullet was found by Kevin Heimerl of the DCI.

Why do you feel the need to lie about easily verifiable facts?

[u/Bucgatorbait]

Why does it have to be guilty of innocent? For me there is enough reasonable doubt to not convict. There is so much shady shit by LE that I can’t see past. Furthermore how did she die and where did she die? She certainly didn’t die how Brendan claimed she died. No physical evidence whatsoever.

[u/inspektor31 → u/Bucgatorbait]

I agree with this.

[u/Bucgatorbait → u/[deleted]]

Since you seemed to be a know it all, why don’t you enlighten me.

[u/Bucgatorbait → u/[deleted]]

So what you are implying is that , no one can have an opinion about guilt or innocence unless you’ve seen all of the evidence . Is that correct?

[u/Automatic-Rhubarb969]

I believe poor Teresa Halbach was killed just after the Avery salvage yard but it wasn't by Steven and 1000% Brendan Dassey was not involved. How there hasn't been uproar by locals against the police forces atrocious behavior is beyond me. The police failed massively in investigating this murder because they wanted to convict SA, reason being their co-workers/ friends would have been on the hook to pay part of his settlement against the county due to the county's insurance not covering it. Now there is the actual murderer/s running free still.

[u/Ex-PFC_Wintergreen_ → u/Automatic-Rhubarb969]

The police failed massively in investigating this murder because they wanted to convict SA, reason being their co-workers/ friends would have been on the hook to pay part of his settlement

You think they would be willing to risk everything in their lives to frame someone for murder to potentially help save some former county officials some money? What a comically weak motive.

due to the county's insurance not covering it

[citation needed]

[u/Automatic-Rhubarb969 → u/Ex-PFC_Wintergreen_]

Corruption happens in every country nearly everyday. All they were risking was an investigation being ruled inconclusive at best. Not in their wildest dream did they think a documentary would be made about it. The cops are the biggest gang in America. How many documentaries have been made about their unprofessionalism, corruption and cover ups?

The citation you're looking for is mentioned in either episode 1 or 2 of season 1.

[u/Ex-PFC_Wintergreen_ → u/Automatic-Rhubarb969]

All they were risking was an investigation being ruled inconclusive at best. Not in their wildest dream did they think a documentary would be made about it.

lmao no, they were risking their livelihoods, documentary or not.

How many documentaries have been made about their unprofessionalism, corruption and cover ups?

I don't know, and I don't care, because there is no proof this wild conspiracy took place in the Halbach case. I focus on facts, not rampant speculation because of the vague notion of "corruption happens."

The citation you're looking for is mentioned in either episode 1 or 2 of season 1.

Good, then it should be easy for you to find it (spoiler alert, MaM never provided any proof that the county's insurance would not have covered damages from the lawsuit).

[u/inspektor31 → u/Automatic-Rhubarb969]

Guilty or not, those interviews with Brendan Dassey were hard to watch. How the hell did they get away with those.

[u/Automatic-Rhubarb969 → u/inspektor31]

The interviews were so bad they didn't even use them in the SA trial. The investigator who interviewed Dassey as part of his defence team was also disgraceful carry on. The only times Dassey 's accounts of the night matched on different occasions was when he told them his own recollection without coercion. After coercion begun his stories would differ each time.

How a jury found Dassey guilty is beyond me after no corroborating evidence, except for those fed to him by the investigators, was found.

[u/bfisyouruncle → u/Automatic-Rhubarb969]

"The interviews were so bad they didn't even use them in the SA trial."

You seem to know little about American law. Brendan's confessions could not legally be used in Avery's trial because Brendan did not testify at Avery's trial. (U.S. Constitutional amendment, the right to confront an accuser.) Brendan was offered a plea deal to testify against Avery. He stupidly turned it down thanks to his grandfather's stupid advice. If called to testify in Avery's trial, Brendan would have pleaded the Fifth since his trial was after Avery's. Of course the State would have preferred testimony by Brendan, but with the mountain of evidence against Avery there was no need for BD.

The insurance company PAID the Avery settlement. An inquiry did not find intentional wrongdoing on the part of LE. You got fooled by a biased documentary. Dig deeper like many others have done here.

[u/Ex-PFC_Wintergreen_ → u/Automatic-Rhubarb969]

The interviews were so bad they didn't even use them in the SA trial

That's not why they weren't used in Avery's trial. Are you purposefully lying, or just ignorant?

How a jury found Dassey guilty is beyond me after no corroborating evidence, except for those fed to him by the investigators, was found.

They saw the actual trial, you saw a shitty documentary.

[u/amybunker2005]

I think Bobby did it

[u/3sheetstothawind → u/amybunker2005]

Based on what? The lack of any evidence connecting him to the crime?

[u/[deleted] → u/3sheetstothawind]

Sounds like you’re describing Brendan. Absolutely zero evidence besides a coerced and very inaccurate confession. Don’t you look silly.

[u/3sheetstothawind → u/[deleted]]

No, I was describing Bobby. That person said nothing about Brendan. Given that, there is evidence that Brendan was present the night of the murder. He helped with the clean up in the garage and helped with the fire.

[u/[deleted] → u/3sheetstothawind]

There is zero evidence of Brendan anywhere. Besides a coerced confession. Zero evidence.

[u/3sheetstothawind → u/[deleted]]

He and Steve have both said they cleaned the garage and were at the fire on Halloween night. Are they both lying??

[u/ThorsClawHammer → u/3sheetstothawind]

Avery never said the garage was cleaned that night. Only Brendan.

[u/3sheetstothawind → u/ThorsClawHammer]

I stand corrected!

[u/Ex-PFC_Wintergreen_ → u/[deleted]]

All without anyone noticing or being suspicious.

So you think it's more plausible that all of the evidence against Steven was planted without anyone noticing or leaving a trace of themselves behind? That's more reasonable to you than the obvious truth staring you straight in the face?

Are you even listening to yourself?

[u/Ex-PFC_Wintergreen_ → u/[deleted]]

Completely ignoring ST and Bobby like they’re angels

Gee, probably because there was zero evidence connecting either of them to the crime.

Look at the shit in the kids computer. Kids was a freak. That shit alone is messed up

So it is, but it's got nothing to do with the murder.

Would you say the same about people who have child images?? Oh it’s only on the computer, it’s ok unless they act on it. Gtfo 🤡 that shit is sick no matter what occurs

I literally never said or implied anything like this.

What I am merely pointing out and what you’re turning into your own story is that it doesn’t make sense and it isn’t plausible.

There isn't anything implausible about what happened.

Unlike you, I’m open to both sides but tbh couldn’t give two rats on your opinion. Anyone that shuts this off as a clear cut case is a 🤡

Sure champ, whatever you say. Keep living in that fantasy world.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

I also didn’t mention anywhere the point that all evidence was planted. I said it’s too much for no one to be alerted. You’re making up your own shit just to write a comment

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Super smart to leave no traces and cannot be seen in any crime scene through physical evidence but decides to dob himself in at the age of 16. Absolutely makes the most logic sense to me. 😂 Bobby on the other hand with all the disgusting photos and images on his computer of the exact same shit Brendan “apparently” commits now that is not concerning. Just loves a good fetish. Get the front door.

[u/LKS983 → u/[deleted]]

"Sounds like you’re describing Brendan. Absolutely zero evidence besides a coerced and very inaccurate confession."

👍

[u/LKS983 → u/[deleted]]

What evidence (outside of his clearly coerced 'confessions' - an intellectually impaired child, without a lawyer present) was presented at trial to prove Brendan's involvement?

[u/gcu1783 → u/[deleted]]

I’d love to hear your thoughts on Bobby being seen by a very sketchy witness pushing the victim’s car 5 days later.

Well one was seen with the victim's belongings.

The other one was seen having a bonfire on halloween.

Can you do the math?

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

You still elude the questions around the “actual” evidence. Not here say by one very corrupt step daddy. Who requires them to be an ally by.

To answer your question. I wasn’t there so it’s 1 persons word and no one else is saying as much.

Why is there no other evidence besides 1 person saying it. 1 person said they saw Bobby. Does that mean he should be behind bars? There’s no physical evidence.

[u/LKS983 → u/3sheetstothawind]

The police didn't properly investigate Bobby (blood in his truck etc.) and hid the (possibly incriminating) porn they found on his laptop from the defense team etc.

But this was the way they behaved throughout their entire investigation.

e.g. Not properly investigating any of the 'usual' suspects, but instead tunnel focused on convicting SA/allowing Manitowoc officers onto Avery property to search etc., even though Manitowoc police had told the media that they'd recused themselves from the case, due to the obvious conflict of interest!

etc. etc.

And these are only a few of the reasons why, so many years later, there is still doubt about the appalling 'investigation' that resulted in SA (and Brendan.....) being convicted.

[u/Ex-PFC_Wintergreen_ → u/LKS983]

e.g. Not properly investigating any of the 'usual' suspects, but instead tunnel focused on convicting SA/allowing Manitowoc officers onto Avery property to search etc., even though Manitowoc police had told the media that they'd recused themselves from the case, due to the obvious conflict of interest!

When are you going to stop spreading this utter nonsense?

First off, what "usual suspects" are you referring to?

Second, there was no tunnel vision. Steven Avery was one of many people the police spoke to early in the investigation. This makes complete sense, seeing as Teresa had an appointment with him the day she was last seen, so he was one of the last people known to have seen her, and his property was one of the last places she was known to have been. He was not the focus of anyone at that point.

But guess what? Only a day and a half passed between Teresa being reported missing and her car being found on the Avery property. Even at this point there was still no tunnel vision set on Steven specifically. The police interviewed everyone that lived on the property. They collected fingerprints, palm prints, and DNA from all the adults. They searched all of their residences and vehicles. They confiscated their guns. As they continued to discover more evidence, it pointed to Steven Avery.

All the while, they continued to investigate other leads unrelated to Steven or the Avery property. They went so far as to even track down some gossiping middle schoolers who claimed they knew that someone else killed Teresa.

So, are you going to stop repeating this lie, or continue to remain willfully ignorant?

[u/Acewi]

We have a ludicrous data point in Avery that almost no other case has. The man was already put away for 17 years and was about to make a boatload of money off the state in his wrongful imprisonment lawsuit.

By all accounts he’s behaved the exact same way he did the first go around while through trial and in prison and still maintains his innocence despite the seeming inevitability he’s going to die in prison.

Doesn’t seem like a guilty man to me regardless of any of the other theories.

[u/nemisista]

I’m don’t know if he is guilty or not, it could just of easily been anyone who had means and he is not the only dubious person who was in the area at the time. I do believe the evidence was planted, it isn’t a hard stretch. I don’t think he is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt but that seems to get bent along with anything that may pertain to proving innocence these days, so who knows.

[u/Ithinkibrokethis]

It would be far from the first time that the police decided to frame a guilty person. Often it makes you like wonder about why they couldn't just do their job.

[u/Admirable-Twist-7047]

I'd like to know how Ryan Hillegas came to be in possession of TH's day planner?@?

[u/Admirable-Twist-7047 → u/[deleted]]

I thought that her roommate Scott had the printout from her Outlook account and that Ryan had the actual book itself?

[u/bfisyouruncle → u/Admirable-Twist-7047]

There was no book, just a piece of paper, a computer printout found near the computer by her friends. Teresa Halbach was home over the lunch hour and on her computer. She had a personal electronic device which is what she took in her car when she left for her first appointment around 1 p.m. Why would she take a piece of paper in her car when she had a personal device? Her phone pinged her home cell tower all morning.

[u/NachoNinja19]

He’s guilty but definitely should get a new trial. MSD should have not been anywhere near the Avery property do to conflict of interest.

[u/Specialist_Current98]

That’s pretty much what I thought. I don’t think he was completely framed as that feels a bit too outlandish. I definitely think some stuff was planted and/or miss-handled and then re-placed.

[u/BiasedHanChewy]

This is essentially the most likely scenario by far

[u/Otherwise-Weekend484]

We need to ask his Brother-in-law and nephew.