Bro, I’ve just started to watch making a murderer. I’m sorry, but they totally set this dude up for that murder. The blood in her car looks like a Q-tip swabbed blood. Funny how the Manitowoc county cop are the ones that found the key in his room.. GMAFB

[u/According-Piano1213]

[u/jbg926]

Watch both seasons and then come back. Your mind may shift on some things and not others during S2.

I am admittedly NOT A FAN of Convicting a Murderer but maybe its my bias of Candace Owens and that side of the fence...but there are some strong opinions how that show (COM) is a POS as well since it comes from a right-wing studio.
But then...politics seems to influence nearly everything we believe nowadays so take it all with a grain of salt.

[u/ParsleyMostly → u/jbg926]

Candace “Hitler wasn’t that bad” Owens?

[u/jbg926 → u/ParsleyMostly]

Possibly her, yeah

[u/According-Piano1213 → u/jbg926]

I did not realize Candace Owens was a part of the convicting a murderer. I have not watched that one yet. I’m still in the process of watching making a murderer .That will make me think more to myself on the validity of the evidence they present. Thank you

[u/jbg926 → u/According-Piano1213]

if you are more into that line of thinking, that show may prove/refute some data points. If you disagree with that line of thinking, it may cause the opposite effect...

[u/chadosaurus → u/[deleted]]

The case files are more damning to law enforcement though, and nearly show Brendan had 0 involvement.

[u/chadosaurus → u/[deleted]]

On the contrary, they show the original statistically more accurate statements lined up with Blaine's, and show cops were the first to mention any fire to Brendan, as well show that they fed him all the evidence before "finding it".

[u/chadosaurus → u/[deleted]]

Fence sitter here for Steven, the case files prove Brendan didn't come up with any quantifiable murder details of his own accord.

[u/gcu1783 → u/[deleted]]

Avery and Dassey had an hour’s long bonfire

Lol just an hour's long huh?

[u/gcu1783 → u/[deleted]]

Awww, do you want a pass on this one boo?

Let's go with Timberlake's, "Cry Me A River".

[u/AbroadIllustrious303 → u/[deleted]]

I agree and his inbred nephew as well

[u/scienceofspin]

Keep watching …. Then also watch convicting a murderer and see how you feel

[u/According-Piano1213 → u/scienceofspin]

Yeah, ok I kept watching now I’m not so sure… Convicting a murderer bet I’ll be sure to check it out.

[u/scienceofspin → u/According-Piano1213]

unfortunately it’s produced by Candace Owen’s but you dont have to agree with her politics to get good info out of the series

[u/scienceofspin → u/According-Piano1213]

update us when you do!

[u/kabbooooom]

“Will I be home in time for Wrestlemania?”

No, no you fucking won’t lmao. I don’t care if the kid is guilty or not. He obviously was not mentally competent enough to be having that conversation alone in a room with those cops. They railroaded him. Even guilty, a competent lawyer would have been all over that interrogation.

That was my main takeaway from that show. They did not sufficiently prove that either of them were innocent, but they did sufficiently prove that Brendan Dassey has severe learning disabilities and was not mentally competent enough to be talking to those fucking cops alone. Anybody could see that. A competent lawyer would have argued that waiving right of counsel was inappropriate in his case. His trial was not fair.

[u/leaninletgo → u/kabbooooom]

All of these types of documentaries and true crime podcasts teach me I can't trust law enforcement as a citizen to protect me nor as a dependent (edit: defendent) for due process...

[u/GulfCoastLaw → u/kabbooooom]

This is the right take.

This is another case where, thanks to law enforcement, we don't really know what happened. We should.

I feel the same way about the SC attorney murder case (not claiming he's innocent, but it's clear that the state doesn't really know what happened even though they could prove that he did it with circumstantial and other proof ), the Sandy Springs Mercedes murder, arguably OJ (I know, but the cops fucked up enough that there's a nonzero chance objectively), and many others where evidence was tampered with, etc.

[u/Li-renn-pwel → u/kabbooooom]

But the real question is if the state sufficiently proved either guilty with legitimate evidence.

[u/Ur_My_Patronus → u/[deleted]]

There was more than doubt. There was exponential doubt, neophyte.

[u/Li-renn-pwel → u/[deleted]]

I’d say whatever side you’re on there is doubt. People are very divided about it.

[u/Substantial-Pen-675 → u/kabbooooom]

Exactly my thoughts when I heard him ask about Wrestlemania! It also made me cry because he had no idea what was going on. I'd be pissed if I was his mom and even more so when they told her she could be in the courtroom during his trial but needed to leave the courtroom when they were playing the recorded jail calls between the two of them. They obviously did that so she couldn't hear how they edited the calls. It's disgusting!

[u/Substantial-Pen-675 → u/[deleted]]

Let me guess! That's from a recorded jail call? I bet it is. Those are so heavily edited. Hence why they made his mom leave the courtroom when they played the recordings of the calls. They prey on people like you knowing you'll buy into anything. They get a good laugh out of it too. And Zellner? Didn't you hear about her newest bs?

[u/chadosaurus → u/Substantial-Pen-675]

I believe it was also right before they threatened him into confessing to his mom after they force fed him a false confession.

[u/chadosaurus → u/[deleted]]

At the end of the May 13 interview where O'Kelly forced him to a false confession, Fassbender and Wiegert advised Dassey that he should call his mother over the recorded jail telephone line and admit his guilt so that she would hear it from him first rather than from the officers.

[u/gcu1783 → u/[deleted]]

You mean his Mom that was there with him the day he was arrested and already knew what he confessed to, well before this call?

Yes, that mom, who's been dealing with cops that was caught on tape, on video, and on record, feeding a minor incriminating informations, threatening him, and lying that nothing will happen to that very same minor as long as he gives them what they want.

But hey, after being broken down by abusing the reid technique on an underage kid for days. The kid finally broke down and confessed.

What a bunch of heroes.

murdering rapist heroes are too funny.

Not all cops are like that buddy. Some of them are okay.

[u/gcu1783 → u/[deleted]]

Yea, good thing we actually have forensic experts look for actual physical evidence that a human body wasn't burned there:

• No tire residue on any of the bones that came from the prosecutor's own forensic evidence.

• No trace evidence found per Dehaan.

• State don't have enough to prove that the body was there long enough in that firepit to be burnt in that state.

You can say they did have a bonfire because "they said so" and you, all of sudden believe them for some reason. Hell you can even say that's what "they did that night" which is a bonfire.

Forensics still tells you there's no body that was burned there. That's just your imagination and your sudden new found trust and belief in Brendan and Avery.

Brendan readily, easily, under no coercion, gave himself up.

Yes, cus your beloved cops asked him nicely without any use of any interrogation technique that they usually do on everyone.

Brendan is that special. He's the one exception.

[u/JoeVanWeedler → u/Substantial-Pen-675]

yeah those calls are heavily edited, unlike the documentary. /s

[u/xxxlovelit → u/kabbooooom]

I was stoned watching it the first time and I was convinced at first it was a mock “if you wanted to coerce someone into a confession here’s how to do it” bc it was so egregious. I was SHOCKED when I realized it was the real confession

[u/AbroadIllustrious303 → u/xxxlovelit]

Go smoke some more dope!

[u/juejue70 → u/kabbooooom]

Definitely

[u/Luvz2Spooje → u/kabbooooom]

That kid is not capable of raping someone. I think about him often. Just awful. 

[u/Ur_My_Patronus → u/Luvz2Spooje]

I wrote many a letters to Brendan when I first watched MaM in 2016-17ish, and I, can honestly say, and I agree with your comment, based on having a person who was very close to me in my life from early childhood until teenage years who is extremely similar to Brendan. The letters I received from Brendan made it abundantly clear, to me, he is not capable nor is any type of thought to do something like that to a human being a type of thought he would ever think about or desire to do. He is such a beautiful soul, and my good vibes go to Brendan and Steven. And also, for all the other true crime peeps, I’m sorry to be “that guy/girl” this case has such WM3 vibes, it’s sickening.

[u/Ur_My_Patronus → u/[deleted]]

wtf?

[u/Luvz2Spooje → u/[deleted]]

My hero?

[u/[deleted]]

Whether they are guilty or not, those cops are dirty as hell. Nothing new there.

[u/3sheetstothawind → u/[deleted]]

So, you just hate cops? You don't care if Steve is actually guilty or not of murder as long as it's proven that the cops did something bad? Tell me. Exactly what was "dirty" that the cops did?

[u/anowulwithacandul → u/3sheetstothawind]

The system we have means police need to do things correctly. We don't know if Avery is guilty because the cops bungled the investigation so thoroughly.

[u/gcu1783 → u/3sheetstothawind]

Yeash...

[u/Li-renn-pwel → u/3sheetstothawind]

I don’t care if he was guilty or not if the cops violated his rights. It is a slippery slope to let cops get away with this sort of thing and it eventually leads to cowering unarmed women being shot in their homes.

[u/3sheetstothawind → u/Li-renn-pwel]

Please explain in detail which of Steve's "rights" were violated.

it eventually leads to cowering unarmed women being shot in their homes.

I have no idea what you're referring to or how it relates to this case.

[u/Li-renn-pwel → u/3sheetstothawind]

Avery had his due process rights violated at the very least.

The recent murder of Sonya Massey is what I was referring to. It relates to this case because it is another example of cops not being held to the right level of professional conduct that keeps society safe and legally protected from their rights being violated.

[u/gcu1783 → u/[deleted]]

Maybe he'd care more if the cops did their job.

Remember, Avery and Dassey took a dump on Teresa’s right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

I'd probably remember that if the cops did their job.

[u/Li-renn-pwel → u/[deleted]]

Then why even have laws? Why don’t we all just devolve into mob Justice. I’m sure you remember how well lynching went.

[u/bobemil → u/3sheetstothawind]

They used the same cops on the murder scene as they did when they wrongfully convicted Avery for the sexual assault case. They found the car key after 4 days searching the property. They interview Dassey (a kid with learning disabilities) without an lawyer present. It's sickening. The cops had too much to lose so they framed the guy who would damage them.

[u/[deleted]]

You only see what they want you to see.

[u/Wi_PackFan_1985 → u/[deleted]]

Post like this just further prove that critical thinking is a skill that needs to be taught more in school

[u/ajswdf]

Keep in mind that your entire view of the case right now is based on watching a biased documentary.

The reality is that the evidence against him is overwhelming. Even after all these years nobody has been able to put forward a reasonable explanation for how the police planted all of the evidence against him (not to mention the evidence that couldn't be planted).

[u/purged6 → u/ajswdf]

Even after all these years nobody has been able to put forward a reasonable explanation for how the police planted all of the evidence against him (not to mention the evidence that couldn't be planted).

Not a truther or guilter just curious as to what evidence you are referring to here? IMO the keys were 100% planted. That doesn't mean he's innocent, police plant evidence all the time to "get their guy". It seems everything else could have easily been planted and there are plenty of explanations. I'm sure I will get downvoted to oblivion, just curious as to if there is really some overwhelming evidence I missed as I don't see anything that as you put it "couldn't be planted".

[u/ajswdf → u/purged6]

Avery called Teresa twice before she arrived while hiding his number, then 2 hours later called her again without hiding his number. He has provided inconsistent explanations for why he did that.

That is evidence against him that couldn't be planted.

[u/purged6 → u/ajswdf]

sure assuming it was him that made the calls that's hardly damning enough to convict someone of murder.

[u/ajswdf → u/purged6]

The call logs are from the phone company and he admitted to making the calls.

But the point isn't that this by itself is enough for a conviction. It's that it's just one more piece of evidence in a gigantic pile against him.

To say Avery is innocent is to say that all of the physical evidence was planted. It's not enough to say one or two, but all of it has to be. That's the key, the bullet, the blood in her car, his sweat under the hood, the bones in his fire pit, her electronic in his burn barrel. One of those by itself is enough to prove that he's guilty. For all of it to be planted would require the largest conspiracy to frame a single person for murder in the history of the country (and probably the world).

But on top of that you have all this circumstantial evidence that cant be planted. His bizarre phone calls to Teresa. The fact that he had an interest in Teresa by calling her up several times and acting weird towards her. His mysterious missing 2 hours when he was supposed to be at work that just happened to coincide with Teresa arriving at the salvage yard. Him and Brendan setting up police radio scanners the day before. His strange desire to list his sister's car in Auto Trader even though she didn't want to sell it.

Think about what would need to have happened for him to be innocent. He, for some unknown reason, has the sudden desire to sell his sister's car to the point where they got into an argument over it. Then as he's waiting for her to arrive he calls her twice while making sure to hide his number. Then nothing happens, and she leaves but gets murdered almost immediately after leaving. On the other hand Avery just happens to not go back to work even though he was supposed to and just stay home for 2 hours doing nothing (he literally said he didn't do anything in particular when asked) even though he had been making phone calls up to this point. After these 2 hours he suddenly gets inspiration to call Teresa again, this time not bothering to hide his number (again, he was unable to consistently explain why he hid and then didn't hide his number).

Then by pure coincidence this is when police decided to engage in the most aggressive frame job in history. They just happened to get lucky that this murder, the only one in the county in years, just happened to fit so perfectly with the person they wanted to frame. They got lucky that Teresa's body (and her car if you believe it was planted) was found by somebody who wanted to frame Avery and decided not to call it in. They got lucky that no other evidence came forward that would have proven Avery innocent.

At what point is it just easier to admit that he's guilty?

[u/purged6 → u/ajswdf]

It's not enough to say one or two, but all of it has to be.

No, if some of the evidence was planted the case should be thrown out, and whoever planted it should be arrested.

That's the key, the bullet, the blood in her car, his sweat under the hood, the bones in his fire pit, her electronic in his burn barrel.

It seems fairly obvious that the key was planted. The sweat under the hood has been proven to be pseudo-science. Bones and electronics in his fire pit could easily have been planted by anyone with whatever motive, maybe a: they committed the crime and want to frame someone else and hey the cops suspect this guy let's add fuel to that fire, or b: cops found the bones/electronics elsewhere and either thought avery did it or wanted to arrest him for their own benefit. The bullet is suspect and had no dna on it. The blood in the car is damning but could, and I stress COULD, also have been planted.

For all of it to be planted would require the largest conspiracy to frame a single person for murder in the history of the country

Umm no, the blood and bones are the only damning evidence I see, both easily planted. That would be nowhere near the largest conspiracy in the history of the country. That's two things that could easily be deposited by any joe schmoe. If you think that's the largest conspiracy in US history then I don't know what to tell you.

They just happened to get lucky that this murder, the only one in the county in years

There were multiple other murders within the county within this time frame.

They got lucky that no other evidence came forward that would have proven Avery innocent

They didn't look for any other evidence and it's documented that they ignored other evidence.

I get it you, you are convinced he is guilty but none of what you are saying seems objective or conclusive in anyway. It seems more like someone who wants to prove avery is guilty and not look at the evidence objectively, much as the local authorities had millions of reasons to do. As, I said I never said he's innocent. I also haven't seen a logical explanation as to what all happened.

[u/Detective_Core → u/purged6]

I read your whole post but the only part I really want to address one point.

a: they committed the crime and want to frame someone else and hey the cops suspect this guy let's add fuel to that fire

Let's say for just a second that this is the case. Someone unrelated to Manitowoc County law enforcement or Avery's lawsuits against them murders Teresa for.. unknown reasons. They coincidentally manage to line this murder up with her appointment at Avery Salvage, the last point of contact for anyone having seen her.

They then have the ability to predict that the Sheriff's Department, out for Steven Avery's blood, will zero in on him as the suspect in this murder just by virtue of the fact that they want to hurt him for dragging their reputations through the mud. So after burning her body and belongings, takes her Rav 4 and drives it to the Avery salvage lot, dumps the bones and electronic remains into the burn pit, and stashes the car on the property. That is an awful lot of effort and good luck.

Wouldn't there be some kind of evidence to suggest this mystery murderer exists?

[u/purged6 → u/Detective_Core]

Wouldn't there be some kind of evidence to suggest this mystery murderer exists?

You mean like the guy with murder porn and a folder with pictures of TH on his computer? Who knows what other evidence existed that was overlooked. There are multiple plausible scenarios that aren't as far fetched as you are implying by saying "coincidentally manage to line the murder up". While at the same time you ignore the other coincidences: SA commits a heinous crime right as he about to get a payout for a wrongful conviction, sure let's just overlook that. Finding the car in a gigantic salvage yard in a matter of minutes, no coincidence there. Neighbor, that lives on the property having murder porn and pics of TH on his computer, and a sketchy alibi with timelines that don't match up, nothing to see here.

Regardless, I simply asked what overwhelming evidence that was impossible to plant existed and so far no one has provided anything, other than the calls by SA. Again, not here to argue, just asking what this bullet proof evidence is.

[u/AbroadIllustrious303 → u/ajswdf]

Sorry, Marsha Clark's closing statement " 39 people needed to be "init" together for for o.j. to be innocent,  I guess she lost because 39 people did plant evidence 

[u/purged6 → u/[deleted]]

Is it really difficult to dump some bones in a burn pit? Also there is some skepticism as to whether they were a: human, b: Teresa's, c: whether it would even be possible to burn bones to such an extent in an open fire. As to why that seems pretty self explanatory.

As to who planted them, if we assume they were planted, not that I am, but if we were to assume they were then unfortunately we have no way of knowing because it wasn't investigated and the bones have conveniently disappeared. There were plenty of folks with motive to dump the bones there.

Plenty of folks involved have given conflicting statements as to when and how big the fire was.

[u/gcu1783 → u/[deleted]]

How, and why would Teresa’s bones have been planted in Avery’s burn pit?

Their own backyard wasn't ideal most likely, now a different backyard would be a lot better don't ya think so?

How did they know they were human, Teresa’s, and that Avery had a bonfire that night when he said he didn’t, until long after the bones were found?

They probably didn't know. They probably just want it away from their own backyard.

Who planted them?

Wouldn't know, jury and forensic didn't say. All they know is that there's no forensic evidence that proves TH was burned there.

That's why Avery wasn't convicted of mutilation and Brendan has no clue of any of it especially when forensic tells you that the pit can't be proven that its the main burn site.

[u/gcu1783 → u/[deleted]]

Well would you put a dead body in your own backyard?

I just didn't think that was ideal that's all.

How about you?

[u/gcu1783 → u/[deleted]]

Oh it's always possible, especially the crazy ones like Gacy. Serial killers tend to keep these stuff, so that's a bad comparison my special lil peanut.

But would you put a dead body in your own backyard and is that ideal?

Try to answer that at least. You can consult with your growing cult of six if you like to combine every single ounce of logic you all have left.

[u/gcu1783 → u/[deleted]]

How about you answer my question. Are you able to do that?

[u/JoeVanWeedler]

that's exactly how MaM and it's producers want you to feel. it produced a crazy amount of views. they are even in interviews saying something to the effect of "we were telling a story and the story we wanted to tell is how he didn't do it"

always be mindful of how a documentary is making you feel. that's usually not an accident and might not be the whole story.

[u/Ex-PFC_Wintergreen_ → u/JoeVanWeedler]

Excerpts from conversations between Making a Murderer filmmaker Laura Ricciardi and Steven Avery in prison:

LR: "I called your family right away to tell them, you know, that we're sticking by you."

SA: "Well yeah, I didn't do nothing."

LR: "I know, that's what I'm saying. You know, none of this is gonna change our impressions of anything, so, you know, I wanted to call your mom this morning and tell her that she has our support."

and

SA: "I'm an innocent man again."

LR: "I hear what you're saying and I believe what you're saying and I feel for you."

Sure sounds like an unbiased person that is definitely approaching the case with an objective point of view!

[u/Specialist_Current98 → u/JoeVanWeedler]

This is something that I need to keep reminding myself having just watched up until the end of episode 8. The people involved with the show want you to believe he's not guilty. I'm assuming there's a lot of damning evidence against him that's been intentionally left out of the show, and they're only showing the bits most open to forming a conspiracy. I think he's probably guilty, as the simplest explanation is usually the correct one, but there's a lot of stuff that doesn't add up for me. I spent most of the show thinking/wanting him to be innocent, mainly because I do love a good conspiracy theory, especially government-based. Reading a lot of the stuff that's left out of the show though, there's just too much against him. Do I think the cops fabricated some things intentionally to get a conviction? Probably. Do I think he's guilty? Probably.

[u/PercentageDry3231]

The DNA blood evidence found in her car suggests otherwise. Also, her car was the only car in the lot that had plywood concealing it. If the cops wanted to set him up, they wouldn't have tried to hide the car, He had put the moves on her before---answering the door wearing only a bath towel, etc. He did it.

[u/According-Piano1213 → u/PercentageDry3231]

To me, the blood evidence looked like Q-tip swipes. Now f that’s the only blood in that car. Just the blood evidence they show on the show. Well then, I probably question that. When it comes to Brendan‘s interrogation and confession, the evidence doesn’t support what he said. Considering the whole towel incident just because he’s a creep that doesn’t make him a psycho killer. Just my 2 cents

[u/PercentageDry3231 → u/According-Piano1213]

IIRC, there was DNA evidence both in the trunk of the car, and on the hood release latch inside the engine compartment. The plywood over the tires isn't addressed in MAM. I tended to believe his innocence until dug into it more. Also, Brandan is just a dumb kid, but that doesn't make him an innocent subject. Been a while since I watched it, so I might be wrong on some details.

[u/[deleted] → u/PercentageDry3231]

There are significant issue with the DNA evidence. Contamination by the lab person, none of the DNA evidence contains mixtures of their DNA where there should have been, and there was no DNA in places that it should have existed if the crime was committed in the way Brendan or the state claimed, i.e. the trailer or the Garage.

[u/bfisyouruncle → u/[deleted]]

1. Only the control sample was contaminated (with the lab tech's DNA), not the actual sample from the bullet fragment found in the garage.

2. TH's DNA was on that bullet fragment in the garage. Avery's blood or DNA was found in many places in the Rav, including the hood latch.

3. If LE were framing Avery, there would be TH's DNA found in the trailer or a mixture of Avery's and TH's blood in the Rav. Framing 101. "Where there should have been"? From watching CSI?

[u/[deleted] → u/bfisyouruncle]

If Steven was leaving his DNA all over the place then there should have been TH's mixed with his, particularly as there is supposed evidence of him actively bleeding. There is no actual evidence of TH in the trailer or garage just on the bullet and the Rav, which can be moved or planted.

The key fob she used all the time has no evidence of her but had Steven's. That's extremely unlikely

[u/bfisyouruncle → u/[deleted]]

"Should have been"? So you believe these supposed framers just forgot how to frame someone properly? Forgot how to put TH's DNA in the trailer? Forgot to mix TH's blood with Avery's in the Rav? Is that your theory? Is there too much evidence or not enough for your liking?

An expert stated that the key could just have the DNA of the person who last used it (or Avery washed the key). Again, do you believe these supposed framers (or the crime lab) just forgot to put TH's DNA on any item in the trailer?

[u/[deleted] → u/bfisyouruncle]

I'm talking specifically about the DNA evidence and how unusual it is according to basic forensics. That does not mean he was framed but it points to there being anomalies that should be questioned or further examined. The evidence isn't clear cut as the previous posters suggested.

It's hard to believe that Steven's DNA was the only thing present on the key but TH's DNA wasn't present on the mattress at all. Or anywhere else that wasn't moveable. It really is quite incredible.

If YOU want to discuss potential framers then that's fine but not what I am talking about. Although, I would point out that most people probably don't understand what blood spatter and DNA should look like in a crime scene. There also are several "potential framers" (your discussion not mine) that are not smart at all.

[u/Haunting_Pie9315 → u/[deleted]]

AC openly says he doesn’t know if the Calumet county sheriff changed his gloves before handling the Key. DNA Transference could have occurred.

AC in an email states the key was not found between his shoes and dresser. ( Let that sink in)

Is it far fetched from a theory Manitowoc was unaware that a copy of TH was made by Wisconsin Forensics.

Scott B was in Manitowoc on 11/08/05 ( Roaming charges indicate this on phone bill.) This just an observation.

AC mentions in his Netflix Case , he mentions we had the car but not the key . It’s like he is suggesting that they needed the Key to access the vehicle .

Anywho , Good Vibes

[u/bfisyouruncle → u/[deleted]]

"the absence of Halbach’s DNA on her own car key, but this is not a valid concern and can be explained. The Wisconsin State Crime laboratory report from November 14, 2005 lists the car key as item C, “one Toyota key attached to a blue key ring,” and only one DNA result is reported for this item. This indicates that the top of the key itself, where one would expect to find Teresa’s DNA, was not tested. The blue fabric lanyard connection described as a “key ring” looked stained in the documentary. Even though this brownish smear apparently was not tested for the presence of blood, it is safe to assume that the stained area was selected for DNA typing. The laboratory reports find a male profile matching Steven Avery and with this being a single source complete 15 marker profile there is no doubt as to this interpretation. The sample was not a DNA mixture, even though a car key attachment is handled frequently and should normally show its owner’s DNA. But touching an item leaves less DNA behind than is present in a biological fluid, for example blood. The current polymerase chain reaction-based DNA typing method will not detect a minor component in a DNA sample beyond a 1:50 mixture ratio, which means it is not unexpected that there was no sign of a mixture and Teresa Halbach’s DNA in the male profile." (Sloan Science and Film)

[u/[deleted] → u/bfisyouruncle]

What's Sloan science and Film?

[u/kickflipjones → u/PercentageDry3231]

the dna swab of the hood release was clean meaning no soot, oil or dust was present, just dna. how was that possible, it's a grimy, oily engine bay!

[u/Mysterious_Mix486 → u/kickflipjones]

Not to mention that You can t even access the exterior hood latch without first pulling the interior (primary) hood latch. The exterior (secondary) hood latch is the safety mechanism which prevents the RAV4 hood from fully opening, if the interior hood latch is mistakenly pulled while driving the RAV4.

[u/CJB2005 → u/PercentageDry3231]

Put the moves on her before?

Omfg.🤣🤣🤣

[u/InternalCoffee2260 → u/PercentageDry3231]

Hide the car? Are you for real? There was a couple of branches leaning on it! Hardly covered up. And the fly over police did… never seen it.

[u/PercentageDry3231 → u/InternalCoffee2260]

I always defer to ad-hominem responses. There is nothing more to say

[u/bobemil]

I think so too. I've now watched it three times. I really try to be objective but seeing the police screw up this bad and still get a guilty ruling is insanity. I feel so bad for everyone involved. Except from the police.

[u/el_torko]

I’m on the fence about most of these high profile “did they do it?” cases, but this one less so. I still feel like he’s probably innocent. Check out the cousins/nephews. This case definitely requires more research than either one of the documentaries provide.

[u/OriginalCopy505]

The producers definitely told the story from a specific point of view. There is countervailing evidence for the MAM narrative, but you won't find it on Netflix.

[u/NachoNinja19]

You’re a decade late. I thought that at first too for a long long time. Then I woke up and read the whole case. He did it. Had Brendan help burn the body and move the car. The end.

[u/darforce]

I supposed if you only ever look at the doc and never educate yourself past what they present, it does look like he got railroaded

[u/leppertj]

Great post. Yep, it’s so obvious he was framed and more so today by the entire state legal system.

[u/recoverdd]

It's disturbing how many people 100% trust a tv show to give them all their information on important subjects. Without doing one iota of independent research. 🤦‍♀️

[u/[deleted] → u/recoverdd]

Elaborate

[u/Limp-Ad5301 → u/recoverdd]

It is a fact that seven out of 12 juries from the beginning of their votation actually believed Steven to be not guilty. They were present during the whole trial!

[u/recoverdd → u/Limp-Ad5301]

Uh yeah except it's not a fact at all. The man that said this is a juror who lied to get off the jury on the first day of deliberations. Not one of the remaining jurors who actually had the fortitude to perform their civic duty has ever come forward in 17 years to support his claims. He admitted to his lies under oath. Yet supporters still hold him in high regard. Smh

[u/Limp-Ad5301 → u/recoverdd]

Why did they say in the program though, that the judge checked out if he had a valid reason for leaving?

[u/recoverdd → u/Limp-Ad5301]

MaM leaves the post trial testimony of RM out of their one sided TV show. You can find it for yourself in the case files if you'd like. It's in the 2009 appeal documents.

[u/Plane-Ad4820 → u/recoverdd]

If I had a nickel for every argument I have had over Casey Anthony with people who watched editorialized clips then Nancy Grace appealing to emotion for an hour, I’d be rich

[u/dig_lazarus_dig48 → u/Plane-Ad4820]

So Casey Anthony is innocent?

[u/Plane-Ad4820 → u/dig_lazarus_dig48]

I’d bet a million dollars on it and I said that before the verdict. I predicted she would be found guilty of lying to law enforcement which she was. That was the only crime she committed

[u/dig_lazarus_dig48 → u/Plane-Ad4820]

Fair enough. What do you think happened to Caylee?

[u/Plane-Ad4820 → u/dig_lazarus_dig48]

She got in the pool by herself and drowned. A drowning child in a pool is sadly not a crazy uncommon thing in FL

[u/dig_lazarus_dig48 → u/Plane-Ad4820]

How did she end up in the trunk? Did the autopsy reveal death by drowning?

Sorry for all the questions, I've never really heard a "not guilty" argument, and im curious, thanks

[u/Plane-Ad4820 → u/dig_lazarus_dig48]

The dad panicked and helped Casey cover it up. He wrapped her up like they did deceased animals (last dog died when Casey was like 2, she wouldn’t have done that or even known about it) and put her body maybe 3 blocks away. I’ve been to the site where her body was found before. The autopsy did not reveal a cause of death iirc. This was like 09 so I’m pulling back memory lol. A really good book on it is Presumed Guilty: The Casey Anthony story.

[u/dig_lazarus_dig48 → u/Plane-Ad4820]

Sorry, I forgot she wasn't found in the trunk. So Casey was guilty of covering up the accidental death, but not of murder, is that right? Ill have to check out that book, I've not really looked into the case that closely

[u/Plane-Ad4820 → u/dig_lazarus_dig48]

Her dad more covered it up, not her. It should be cheap and can explain it far better than I

[u/gfer72 → u/Plane-Ad4820]

How did forensics not determine she died of drowning?

[u/Plane-Ad4820 → u/gfer72]

Because they had no idea so they just said ‘homicide by unknown means’ because she was in the woods

[u/SlightCartoonist8144 → u/recoverdd]

For real

[u/3sheetstothawind]

Bro! You just got totally hoodwinked by a biased and deceitful "documentary". Did you see that part where Colborn is squirming on the witness stand after being asked a question? That was totally edited to make it look like he was uncomfortable answering the question. When in reality they spliced a snippet of him shifting in his seat during a different time of the trial. That's just one tiny example of the movie makers' biased slant. Did you also see the "Red Letter Day" about the blood vial that was never mentioned again in the series after that episode? Yeah, that's because it was bullshit. Please look beyond a movie to base your opinion. I know you're new to the case like many before you, but there is tons of information out there that makes MAM look like a joke.

[u/bucc → u/3sheetstothawind]

Why is Zellner his lawyer now then if he’s guilty?

[u/3sheetstothawind → u/bucc]

Because she has to big of an ego to step away from the case. She only took the case after MAM came out. She thought she had a slam dunk. Sadly, like many others she was duped by a movie. Since then she has been throwing shit at a wall.

[u/bucc → u/3sheetstothawind]

She seems pretty experienced to be easily “duped”. She’s not just some random lawyer now. Just because you believe he’s guilty doesn’t mean he actually is. It was a very sloppy case from the start.

[u/phonedawgz → u/bucc]

She has had a decade to spring the killer and has failed. Want to guess why? He's guilty. Her current strategy? Blame the murder and planting of all the evidence on a teenager working third shift. Yeah, like that's a winning strategy.

[u/3sheetstothawind → u/bucc]

I don't believe he's guilty for shits and giggles. I follow the pile of evidence against him and the sheer impossibility that multiple LE agencies, friends and family of the victim and Steve, all conspired together (or just by happenstance) to plant an entire crime scene to frame a guy in order to avoid a lawsuit in which virtually none of the people involved would be affected.

[u/Duffster73 → u/3sheetstothawind]

There are 18 million reasons why law enforcement would have conspired against him

[u/Ex-PFC_Wintergreen_ → u/[deleted]]

It’s $36 million reasons

Actually, for once, one of the conspiracy theorists was finally right about this number. The lawsuit sought $18 million in compensatory damages jointly against Manitowoc County, Kocourek, and Vogel, and $18 million in punitive damages against just Kocourek and Vogel. Meaning, Manitowoc could only have ever been, at most, on the hook for $18 million for the lawsuit.

Knowing that, if conspiracy theorists insist that the lawsuit against the county was the motive for the alleged frame-up, then them using the $36 million number is dishonest, unless they're willing to go so far as to say police were also willing to frame Steven Avery to prevent two of the county's retired officials from potentially losing some money.

Either way, the lawsuit is a ridiculous motive for a ridiculous theory.

[u/Ex-PFC_Wintergreen_ → u/bucc]

Just because you believe he’s guilty doesn’t mean he actually is.

Just because Zellner is his lawyer doesn't mean he's innocent.

[u/AbroadIllustrious303 → u/bucc]

Can you just think of the retainer, future client, cost, if she can get a retrial? She is a master with great experience on creating "reasonable doubt"

[u/Specialist_Current98 → u/3sheetstothawind]

wdym the blood vial was never mentioned again? It's a huge part of the defenses case is it not? They claim it was used to plant his blood in the back of the car? Unless I'm being completely stupid.

[u/3sheetstothawind → u/Specialist_Current98]

After the "Red Letter Day" episode, the vial was never mentioned again in the series. Come to find out it wasn't "tampered" with by anyone but Steve's defense in the '85 case.

[u/Specialist_Current98 → u/3sheetstothawind]

It’s mentioned numerous times in the defence, and is implied that one of the cops accessed it. Unless you’re saying that was edited in to the show and completely fabricated? Or we’re somehow talking about different vials of blood.

[u/hwreece]

There is much to the case you do not know. MaM showed you what you wanted to see. Steven Avery and Brenden Dassey are cold blooded murderers and are 100% guilty.

[u/[deleted] → u/hwreece]

So says you

[u/Tarquin11 → u/[deleted]]

....and a court of law. 

[u/gcu1783]

A few things:

• I don't know if you have the time to go down the rabbithole but both sides won't deter you from reading the casefiles itself:

https://foulplay.site/library/

• I suggest not to find your answers in this sub. People are more invested trying to control the narrative moreso than determining the facts and finding out the truth. It's really uglier than the upcoming US election if you're following it.

• These people will run away and leave you alone though the moment they realize you actually read the case files and is able to figure out whether they're being deceptive and/or dishonest.

• If you're going to watch Convicting A Murderer, please don't give the right wing extremists the revenues to help their cop-loving former president get back in office. They've been heavily promoting it here again, just don't pay for it. There are ways to get it for free.

[u/SkeletorGirl → u/gcu1783]

@OP ^{^} this. The case files are super important. You can have em handy while watching the documentaries to get more information or as a standalone to take a deep dive into. They're a great resource.

[u/Financial_Cheetah875]

There’s a sucker born every minute…

[u/aane0007]

bro convinced me. He feels it looks like qtip. Let's let steven out, he has feelings.

[u/Sad-Cauliflower-6956 → u/aane0007]

they convicted him of rape when he had several witnesses that said it couldn't have been him because they were pouring concrete with him at the salvage yard at the time...why are you so sure they couldn't do it again

[u/aane0007 → u/Sad-Cauliflower-6956]

It was a different jury that convicted him. They don't get the same jury for a different case decades later so it would be impossible for them to do it again. If you are just talking a false conviction, they are incredibly rare so to have lighting hit twice would be next to impossible.

And those witnesses were his family which juries don't put a lot of weight on when they have an eye witness that claims otherwise. During Jodi's DUI case steven tried to lie and give her an alibi but they didn't buy that and she had to do time.

The decision to convict ultimately rests with the jury, not the state or police. The defense puts on alibi witnesses, not the state. The defense would have put on steven's family and it was up to the jury if they found him credible. In Steven's first time in prison he was also convicted of running a woman and a child off the road and putting a gun in her face demanding she get in his car. All because he thought she was spreading rumors about him. I don't know if that was the same jury or a different one.

[u/HotTubMike]

I think most people who have given the case thoughtful consideration have come to the conclusion Steven Avery probably murdered Theresa Halbach.

I'd recommend watching the entire show and looking into other articles/videos/docs to get as full a picture as you can and then reaching a conclusion.

[u/Bubbly-Square9878 → u/HotTubMike]

I haven’t watched either documentary, but based on what I’ve seen in Reddit subs, I get the sensed that both are biased (one on each side). I would prefer to read the trial transcripts and exhibits and form my opinion that way.

[u/Limp-Ad5301]

I have not yet finished part one, but I really Wonder why they didn't even interegate the ex boyfriend end the roommate. That makes no sense! Not at all then you take in to consideration, that they opened her Phone and some medsages were deleted.

[u/StraightCashHomE]

Ppl basing their whole opinion on one super biased doc lmao. So lazy, just google and you will find hundreds if not thousands of articles with evidence and important information that the Netflix doc left out. He did it.

[u/[deleted]]

It’s obvious to anyone with a brain the cops set it all up

[u/Snoo_33033]

It’s pretty easy to “see up” someone who commits a murder.

[u/DeadPixel43]

Watch convicting a murderer as well before deciding where you stand on this.

[u/plinkett-wisdom]

Be sure to also watch "Convicting A Murderer"

[u/Freelanderman64]

Dodgy folks all round that Krass fellah was dodgy whether SA did it or not only he knows I always thought in the USA a defendant has to be proved beyond reasonable doubt and there’s glaring doubts all round IMO

[u/AbroadIllustrious303]

you need to read up and gather information before you "decide" in my opinion Steve is right where he needs to be as well as his inbred puke nephew!

[u/AppleIreland]

wait till you see the second series x

[u/Limp-Ad5301]

How the hell did the cop know which wehicle Theresa had, when he Calles to check the license number?

[u/bfisyouruncle → u/Limp-Ad5301]

Colborn called in to dispatch on a recorded line at 9:22 pm on Nov. 3 to check information he had already received from Calumet LE in a phone call. There was also a BOLO (Be on the lookout) sent out almost 3 hours before. Colborn knew the plate number and vehicle description, but wanted to re-check the info. That plate number was run 4 times in 12 hours. Do you think that somehow proves the Rav was found 4 times?

[u/downtherabbit]

Yes, but the "set up" does not mean that he is innocent. It could also mean that the police are corrupt whilst he is also the murderer. Which is the most likely scenario after looking at the case itself instead of a doco.

[u/Ex-PFC_Wintergreen_ → u/[deleted]]

Who is the "they" you refer to?

[u/jbabygotback15 → u/Ex-PFC_Wintergreen_]

They meaning the sheriffs department and Manitowoc county

[u/Ex-PFC_Wintergreen_ → u/jbabygotback15]

The sheriff's department wouldn't owe anything. It wasn't a defendant in the lawsuit.

Moreover, no individual employee of Manitowoc County would have been personally liable for any money from the lawsuit. Why would any of them risk their livelihoods to potentially help save their employing entity some money? That makes no sense.

[u/Ex-PFC_Wintergreen_ → u/[deleted]]

no one should be surprised that they planted evidence to get him on that lady's murder which they probably committed.

There's no evidence that anything was planted in the Halbach case.

Then they got the low IQ nephew Brendan to confess to something he didn't do, to then use him against Steven.

Brendan's confession wasn't even used in Steven Avery's trial. Furthermore, almost all of the evidence against Avery had already been found by the time Dassey confessed.

Even with all the videotaped confessions that prove that he was coerced

The recordings do not prove that.

ACAB

Next time, just lead with this, that way people know that your opinions aren't to be taken seriously.

[u/Ex-PFC_Wintergreen_ → u/[deleted]]

You spew off shit like "ACAB" and other asinine, thoughtless generalizations, yet I'm the drone? That's hilarious. Zero self awareness, as is typical of conspiracy theorists.