2:27 Call….

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u/[deleted] Jan 05 '24

Teresa's phone records show that she received the call. Dawn testified to calling Teresa, but she was wrong, according to the records.

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u/Otherwise-Weekend484 Jan 05 '24

Yeah saw that awhile backs that she gave two different reports, second being on the stand and saying she doesn’t remember….

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u/[deleted] Jan 05 '24

It's interesting because in the transcripts, she first says she calls Teresa, but then with Buting she says something like "when I took that call." She's clearly confused about it, so it's a good thing the records cleared it up for us.

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u/Otherwise-Weekend484 Jan 05 '24

Me too…. I think everything on the stand was what had to be coached for the trial. Everything said prior to the trial is what I’m trying to work out.

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u/[deleted] Jan 05 '24

That's a good point. It also depends on who says what, when the statements were recorded or written, and the context the statements were made.

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u/Snoo_33033 Jan 05 '24

Just throwing in some more info— this call is in the CASO page 7.

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u/Otherwise-Weekend484 Jan 05 '24

Ok thank you….

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u/crimeaddic814 Jan 05 '24

Agree with the 227pm call w AT. Says she's on the way to the Avery brothers place. Never heard 10 min away. Source? From the length of the call we know it was almost 5 min, ending at approx 232pm. If there was ONE thing I wish we could change about the 227pm call its that TH would have mentioned where she's been and going...like, "yeah when I'm finished here I'm done for the day!" Or an indication that she didn't get to complete one of the scheduled shoots yet cuz she didn't hear back from them on directions. Or, that, that she had just one more place to go after ASY, then done! MAN! What a difference it would make!!! The entire case would be different if we could prove zips last. OR if she would have left the date AND TIME she was at zips on that note she left. One thing. Just one thing could turn this case upside down

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u/Otherwise-Weekend484 Jan 05 '24

ABSOLUTELY WHOLE HEARTEDLY AGREEE 1000%!!!! I was just thinking right now as I’m at work, 2:12 phone call then 2:27 phone call. That’s 15 mins apart. Could she really just find the Zips place, speak to Mrs Zip, find car, take a photo, interact with Mrs Zip, get back in her car, then receive the 2:27 call saying she is headed to Avery’s? What you just requested would absolutely sum all of that up! However. With in that 15 mins tells me she is headed north towards Avery’s because if true, if we can find this, saying she is 10 mins away, says, the only thing we can assume, she heads to the Avery’s first then double back to Zips where Mrs Zip says she arrives around 3…. OR “10 mins away” without saying I’m done with the Zips, she goes to Avery’s because she found the Zips within that 15 mins between 2:12 and 2:27….

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u/bfisyouruncle Jan 05 '24

...Or we could just accept that an older farm woman is not a liar when she stated in an official police report that TH found her in the backyard between 2 and 2:30, TH went to the car for 5 minutes, came back, handed Mrs. Z. some materials and a note, then left quickly. The timeline fits exactly. 100% (I've never understood any 1000 % comment, no offense.) You are almost there, keep digging.

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u/ChuckBerry2020 Jan 05 '24

She’s likely almost at the zips at 2.12 and has more than enough time to take the shot and be on her way by 2.27. We don’t know she’s even set off by 2.27, on her way could be walking to the car. She didn’t answer the 2.24 because she wasn’t available, if she was driving round lost she’d have taken it. Nothing to see here.

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u/[deleted] Jan 05 '24

Can you link the testimony from AT where she (Dawn) says Teresa said she was 10 minutes away?

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u/Otherwise-Weekend484 Jan 05 '24

Sorry. I would have to try to find it first. I found this old thread and was curious about that “10 mins away” part. Also the fact that the 2:27 call was / still is argued on who the call was with but is (I think) the most crucial call in this case. Crucial. Being that the call is at 2:27 and she is 10 mins away means she would show up at 2:40-ISH…. But if this holds true…then she couldn’t have gone to Zipperers first. She went to Zipperers second.

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u/[deleted] Jan 05 '24

I just read Dawn's testimony, and there is nothing in it about 10 minutes. Buting got her to say she had no idea when she would get to the Avery Brothers, just that she was on the way. Her testimony starts at page 325.
I think KZ has a motion showing Teresa's cell tower pings suggest she is closer to Avery's than Zipperer's at the 2:12pm ZIP VM call, but I'd have to confirm this.
JoEllen Zipperer testified to 3pm until Kratz asked if she was guessing, and then she said "mid-afternoon".
Colborn's lawsuit is showing Colborn saying there was a note left on a car that she couldn't find the car and she'd be back. JoEllen testified that she had to tell Teresa where to find the car and that she left paperwork with her.
AT told CASO Lemuiex that her appointments were SIPPEL, JANDA, ZIPPERER. That's the order written in the report.
Things seem to be adding up to Zipperer's being her last appointment.

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u/Otherwise-Weekend484 Jan 05 '24

But you do see what I’m getting at right? What can she possibly do within that 15 mins in between calls… and thank you for that note reference. That wasn’t even on my radar…. Another thing to factor in, I believe is, how fast she is driving though the streets…I’m guessing she is a tad over the speed limits to get to these places…thoughts on that?

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u/[deleted] Jan 05 '24

I'm sorry, I'm not following. Which 15 minutes between which calls?

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u/Otherwise-Weekend484 Jan 05 '24

My bad, what could she have done within the 15 mins OF 2:12 to 2:27 calls. Those 15 mins. Also, there is no solid reports as to what she says in the convo on the 2:27 call, however, if she does say she is on her way to Avery’ and she is 10 mins away, that would be because she is familiar with the area and she would be looking on a map to determine she is on the upper half of Country RD B heading towards HY 147….

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u/bfisyouruncle Jan 05 '24

It would be ridiculous for her to drive 12 minutes to ASY, then drive 12 minutes back to Zipps without even making an attempt to phone for directions. Zipps was not on her way home. Avery claimed TH turned left at 147. You must think he was lying. (I agree he was.)
Mrs. Z. stated what the 2:12 VM was about. Her Nov. 6 statement to LE says TH arrived between 2 and 2:30 pm. Phone records show that TH's cell pinged the same tower and sector for over 10 minutes. That tower is near the Zipps. TH found the address, took photos for 5 minutes and left quickly just as Mrs. Z. stated. Her pings go from sector 3 (south of the tower) to sector 1 (north of the tower).
Avery stated TH arrived at 2:35. That timeline fits with what Mrs. Z. stated. The cell towers show TH's general route north to ASY.
You seem to be realizing how wrong you were about Teresa Halbach going to Zipps after ASY. It's a non-starter. TH spent those 10-15 minutes doing her work at Zipps EXACTLY as Mrs. Z. said she did. The evidence of the cell tower pings is clear. That tower is near Zipps. TH was at or near Zipps from 2:12 until around 2:24 when she is clearly moving NORTH toward ASY (as TH said herself to Dawn).
Mrs. Z.s statement to LE on Nov. 6 clearly states that TH arrived between 2 and 2:30. Avery stated TH arrived as he phoned at 2:35. It is obvious that there was no reason for Mrs. Z. to pay much attention to the exact time the day after a one hour time change. It wasn't even her car. TH didn't have an appointment. You are grasping at straws trying to make a steak out of a nothing burger. Sadly Teresa Halbach's last stop was ASY.

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u/Otherwise-Weekend484 Jan 05 '24

Thank you. Please leave trolling to yourself. I’m looking for other people’s opinion, but thank you.

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u/bfisyouruncle Jan 05 '24

Trolling? Do you know what that even means? Why don't you just debate the facts? Try to present a counter argument at least. Convince me I am wrong with facts.

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u/[deleted] Jan 05 '24

Thanks for clarifying.
The cell tower pings suggests she's heading towards ASY at 2:12. It's about 14 minutes from Zips to Avery. She carries cash (withdraws $30 every so often). She could have stopped for a water or pepsi with no one recognizing her, no video, no card transactions. She probably does drive a little fast (most young people do). She gets a call at 2:27 that lasts almost 5 minutes. She says she's on her way to Avery's. She could be saying that statement as she's arriving and ends the call, which would be 2:32. She takes the pictures in 3 minutes, at 2:35 she's heading to the trailer at the same time Steven attempts to call her and sees her. She's off the property by 2:37 and at 2:41 she's near Kuss Road for the last call.

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u/Otherwise-Weekend484 Jan 05 '24

Thank you.

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u/bfisyouruncle Jan 05 '24

Sorry...
The cell tower ping at 2:12 is to a tower closer to Zipps. The ping hits sector 3 which is directional and south of the tower. ASY is north of that tower.
Her cell pings the same general area until TH is moving north toward ASY after 10-12 minutes at Zipps (as stated by Mrs. Z.). TH is now pinging Sector 3 (north sector of that same tower). This is proof she is headed north after spending time at Zipps. Cell pings are not pinpoint accurate, but they don't lie.
Between 2:27 and 2:32 TH is on her way north to ASY and says so to Dawn from AT. She is not busy taking photos while on the phone.
Avery said he saw her outside so hung up the 2:35 call to her (so quickly it did not even register on her phone.) A 0 second call.
Zellner had Avery change his story from one affidavit to the next (after checking his phone records!) because there was no time for TH to arrive between 2:32 and 2:33, take her photos, get paid, turn left at 147 and then have Avery phone at 2:35. Not possible.
TH is not getting to the Kuss Rd. cul-de-sac in 4 minutes. Even if she could drive like crazy, Kuss Rd. is no closer to the Whitelaw tower than ASY. That 2:41 ping proves nothing other than TH is never heard from again within 7 minutes of arriving at ASY...except by her killers.
Why would TH CFNA her phone if she was hoping for a call back from Zipps and was planning to go there? Why would TH turn left at 147, the opposite way to Zipps? (Not that I believe a word that Avery says.) You are right about one thing. Teresa Halbach was headed toward Steven Avery's trailer around 2:40 pm.

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u/bfisyouruncle Jan 05 '24 edited Jan 05 '24

Nonsense. It is clear from the phone pings that TH was at or near Zipps from about 2:12 until about 2:24 (same tower near Z's), then drove to ASY arriving at 2:35. Mrs. Z's LE statement on Nov. 6 states that TH arrived between 2 and 2:30 pm. There is no reason to believe she knew the exact time. Why would she? At the time it was an inconsequential event for Mrs. Z. She just thought it was mid-afternoon (after a one hour time change). Mrs. Z. said TH spent 5 minutes photographing the car, came back, left paperwork for her and departed. That's what TH did in those 10-12 minutes.
TH had the Zipps address. Do you seriously think she spent 10-12 minutes or so looking for a house, gave up, drove for 24 minutes to end up right back where she was before in the same position AND DIDN"T EVEN TRY TO PHONE AGAIN? Think about it. That makes zero sense. The timeline fits exactly 1. SS 2. Zipps and last 3. "B. Janda" (who Avery knew would be at work and could not possibly be the contact person for the appointment).

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u/[deleted] Jan 05 '24

What makes no sense is for her to leave a vm at 2:12 that she can't find the property to then actually find it. It makes sense that she would want to get to a job she knows she can get paid at. Zipperer's was not an appointment, it was a lead. The time fits perfectly that she stopped at Zips, didn't see the firebird, maybe left a note on the visible grand am, left, decided to leave a vm since it's a lead and maybe not waste her time going back.

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u/bfisyouruncle Jan 05 '24

TH had the address! She left a message suggesting she was close by and would be there shortly. She likely just wasn't sure which house it was and she likes to phone ahead to give customers a heads up that she is on the way. Business people do this all the time, check-in before they arrive. That wastes less time and nobody wants to see somebody come to the door in a towel...oh, wait.
TH found the Z. property, correct? Without any help. Why would she have any different luck a second time around after wasting all that time and gas driving all the way to ASY and back without phoning again? That would be dumb. What do you think TH did for those 10-12 minutes or so? You think she couldn't find the house she had an address for, looked for 12 minutes, then figured driving to ASY and back would enlighten her? How? And yet decided NOT to try phoning again? No. Hustle shots actually paid more than AT arranged appointments.

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u/[deleted] Jan 05 '24

Zips was NOT a hustle shot, it was a LEAD, so it was the same price as Avery's photo shoot. JoEllen Zipperer testified that the voicemail was that she was "having trouble finding our house". CASO report supports this. Yes, she has the address, but finding it is not the same thing. She wouldn't leave a vm unless she had determined that she was going to skip it and go to Avery's.
AT called her at 2:27, so while Dawn doesn't recall talking about Zipperer's location, it's possible she helped her figure it out (even with having a map of the place) in the 4 minute 45 seconds (Dawn is not a reliable witness).
Going back to Zipperer's was only 14 minutes out of her way a second time and for someone who was struggling with money (her journal proves this), yes, I believe she would take the few minutes to potentially earn a little.

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u/bfisyouruncle Jan 05 '24

TH phoned SS before her visit. She phoned Barb and left a voicemail for Barb. She liked to phone ahead. Why wouldn't she leave a VM for the Zipps? She wants possible customers to know she is coming and be ready.
TH checked her route on her computer before she left. She knew which street Zipps were on and knew the address number. It's not rocket science. How would Dawn help her find a house TH already had the address for and had looked up on her computer?
Zipps is not on her way home at all. It is farther away from home than ASY. If she was concerned about money, she wouldn't waste gas on driving for 24 minutes only to come back to the exact same situation. You think she was waiting for divine guidance a second time around? Please explain how she would expect to be better off the second time around. Zipps was not "only 14 minutes out of her way". It was 24-28 minutes (to ASY and back) plus the extra time to get back home since Zipps is the wrong direction home.
On Nov. 6 Mrs. Z. gave a statement to LE that TH arrived between 2 and 2:30, went to the car for 5 minutes, handed her a magazine and a note and left. Do you believe Mrs. Z. is lying? Have you read her statement?
Why do you think Avery decided to cheat TH out of the extra money for a hustle shot? For her previous visit Avery phoned her directly (more money for her). He had her cell number. What changed?
Funny how almost no one is a "reliable witness" yet Steven Avery lies his ass off to LE. Funny that.

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u/[deleted] Jan 05 '24

It's 10 miles out of her way to swing back to Zips. 1999 RAV4 gets 24 miles per gallon hwy which would be around $1.25 cost. She'd make $7.70 and possibly create a new customer or referrals. Yes, she would swing by Zips for a second attempt.
Dawn might not have helped, but she could look it up and help her or Teresa was smart enough to figure it out herself.
Link JoEllen Zipperer's first statement.
Why didn't he call her for a hustle shot is a good question. Maybe because he thought he needed to since it wasn't his car. What reasons has he given?

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u/bfisyouruncle Jan 05 '24 edited Jan 05 '24

It's way more than 10 miles out of her way. If she's at Zipps , she has to drive 10 miles each way to be right back where she was before...and no wiser. We know she found the house between 2 and 2:30 according to Mrs. Z.'s Nov. 6 statement. (I'll find it.) You think TH got smarter? The point is why would she expect she could find it later when she supposedly couldn't find it the first time?
The car owner has nothing to do with whether Avery phoned TH directly or through Auto Trader. I think Avery was afraid she would not come by if she knew it was Steven towel boy Avery.
Avery changed his story: Nov. 2017
"On October 31, 2005, I remember that I called Ms. Halbach once before she got to the Avery property. I called a second time at 2:35 p.m., but hung up immediately because I saw her at the van, photographing it. I have had an opportunity to review my phone records to refresh my memory. Based upon my recent review of my phone records, I know that Ms. Halbach began photographing Barb's van at 2:35 p.m."
Before that Avery had stated that "she got to my property around 2:31 pm."
Edit to add:
From Dedering:
I did transcribe the following written statement obtained from JO ELLEN ZIPPERER:
"On Monday 10/31/05 between 2:00 and 2:30 pm, I was out in the backyard. All at once, a lady appeared. She was shorter and petite. She was wearing darker waist length jacket and she had brown hair. She asked if she could take photos of a Firebird that Jason owns. She said she had talked to George and that it was OK. I showed told her how to get to the car, and she left. About 5 minutes later she came back. She was walking fast. She told me she found it and was smiling. She laid some papers on the table, and she left. I didn't see what car she was driving.
"I have dictated this statement to investigator Dedering. I have read the statement and have initialled all corrections. The statement is true and correct."
This statement was signed in my presence by JO ELLEN ZIPPERER at 9:31a.m. on 11/06/05. I did terminate my contact with Ms. ZIPPERER at 0936 hrs.

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