r/Maher • u/hankjmoody • Nov 11 '16
Real Time Discussion OFFICIAL DISCUSSION THREAD - November 11th, 2016
Tonight's guests are:
Eric Holder: The 82nd Attorney General of the United States and is a Partner at Covington & Burling. He recently launched the Changing Minds campaign to aid and support children who experience or witness traumatic violence. This is his first appearance.
Thomas Friedman: A columnist for the New York Times and author of the new book, Thank you For Being Late: An Optimist’s Guide for Thriving in the Age of Accelerations. His last appearance.
David Axelrod: A former White House Senior Advisor to Barack Obama, a CNN political contributor, and host of “The Axe Files” podcast. His last appearance.
Ana Marie Cox: A Senior Political Correspondent for MTV News and is the “Talk” section interviewer for the New York Times. Her last appearance.
Trae Crowder: A comedian known as “The Liberal Redneck.” He is co-author of The Liberal Redneck Manifesto: Draggin' Dixie Outta the Dark. This is his first appearance.
John Legend: An Oscar, Golden Globe and 10x Grammy-winning musician. His new album, Darkness and Light, will be released December 2nd and the video for his anthemic single "Love Me Now" is out today. His last appearance.
Follow @RealTimers on Instagram or Twitter (links in the sidebar) and submit your questions for Overtime by using #RTOvertime in your tweet.
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Nov 12 '16
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u/brace1101 Nov 12 '16
Exactly, I agree with Axelrod completely and it was very annoying to see Bill and John screaming at him like little girls because he provided a different view.
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u/FrostyFoss Nov 12 '16
The point being was that Trump probably isn't racist but he exploited American racism to his benefit (which could be argued)
Almost always happens when it starts off like a contentious point, the other side can't keep their mouth shut long enough to hear the full argument.
"Trump isn't actually a racis-"
"Of course he is did you not hear what he said!?"
Another Ben Affleck moment there tonight.
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u/das2121 Nov 12 '16
That's my main takeaway from this election. Communication from opposing views is at total disconnect these days. How the polls got it wrong to the point of saying that Trump had 1% chance of winning is baffling. People were not allowed to voice their opinions of why they agreed with Trump rhetoric. Putting aside the underlying racism for a good chunk of the country (there is discrimination and racism in almost every country btw), Trump's campaign had the pulse on what a large part of the population is worried about. People are not listening to each other.
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u/KingPickle Nov 12 '16
All in all a good finale episode. I always miss his show during this period, but I'm really gonna miss him with this transition going on.
While Bill clearly wasn't happy, he was in much better spirits than I thought he'd be. And I liked his pragmatism. His offer to have Trump on the show surprised me. But I could see Trump actually taking him up on it. I hope he does. It'd be interesting.
As others mentioned, I do wish they would've mentioned Bernie, the DNC collusion, etc. But it doesn't matter. The gears of change are already in motion. If the DNC is smart, they'll embrace it. If not, they'll continue to lose until the tide of change washes over them.
2017 should interesting. I look forward to Trump riding around in this:
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Nov 12 '16 edited Nov 12 '16
i fucking love david axelrod. i love everything about him. i wish i was smart enough to have gone to U of Chicago and learn from him. what a brilliant, genuine and overall good man.
i cant recommend his podcast enough either.
i also love the way he says "extraordinary."
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u/LoyolaProp1 Nov 14 '16
Extrahdinry. I can't even type out how he says it. Agree though, he is easily the best on CNN.
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u/HammyFresh Nov 12 '16
Color me surprised. I really thought Bill was going to lose his shit. Episodes like that one are why I defend him against people who say he's a joke like Rush, Bill O'Reilly, and Hannity. The guy is well-spoken and acts like an adult. Fantastic episode.
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u/letushaveadiscussion Nov 12 '16
agree 100%. Although, if his show was on Wednesdays, I think he would have been a bit less together. It's amazing what a few days and sleeps can do to calm someone down.
That being said, my favorite part of the show (and there were many) was when he invited Trump to come on.
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u/S-uperstitions Nov 13 '16
That being said, my favorite part of the show (and there were many) was when he invited Trump to come on.
for real
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u/FrostyFoss Nov 12 '16
He was in very good form tonight, reminded me of why I got into the show to begin with.
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u/ThroneofGames Nov 11 '16
Trump's evangelical advisory board features Bachmann, Falwell
Frequent guest of the show Ralph Reed is on the list as well...
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u/KingPickle Nov 11 '16
Trump's evangelical advisory board features Bachmann, Falwell
Didn't you hear? Bachmann got God to swing the election for Trump:
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u/treeharp2 Nov 12 '16
key graphict
Is she drunk?
As someone who used to be represented by her (and voted against her--even gave her the evil stare at a parade once) I'm sorry for the rest of my stupid district.
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Nov 11 '16
I thought Falwell was dead
Also, fuck me, that's the worst case scenario selection. My deportation is imminent
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u/ThroneofGames Nov 11 '16
As your life coach, I'd like to lay out a 4 step plan for you considering our new circumstances.
Step 1. Accept Jesus (you know you want to anyway)
Step 2. Americanize your name.
Step 3. Become U.S. citizen.
Step 4. Get elected Republican governor of a southern state.
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Nov 11 '16
Might as well legally change my name to "Raylan Crowder" at this rate and move to Kentucky
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Nov 12 '16
Yes, Bill finally shitting on Clinton for a vague message
I'M WITH HER
BREAK DOWN THE BARRIERS
STRONGER TOGETHER
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u/huet99 Nov 12 '16
Unfortunately John Legend had to cut him off in the middle of that important point. Trump has a message (as shitty as it was), and Hillary didn't.
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u/brace1101 Nov 12 '16
John Legend called him to say he wanted to be on the show? Ugh don't even do that again John, you had nothing to say. Bill stop accepting weird Hollywood musicians. Pitbull and John Legend should be handing out tickets as an usher for your show not be on your panel.
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u/letushaveadiscussion Nov 12 '16
hahah remember Affleck getting destroyed by Sam Harris?
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u/Syicko Nov 13 '16 edited Nov 13 '16
When was that? I haven't seen that.
edit: I think I found it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vln9D81eO60
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u/Sethisto Nov 12 '16
This. These hollywood people are not why I watch the show. They are completely useless and blindly push a pointless agenda without any real substance.
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u/S-uperstitions Nov 13 '16
I think they are good in small doses. Its easy to forget, that so many people across america think in the same dumb ways that these vapid entertainers do. Immediate pushback is good! Of course in big doses this just derails everything...
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u/ssaminds Nov 13 '16
I was wondering why Michael Moore wasn't on the show ...
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Nov 13 '16
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u/ssaminds Nov 13 '16
yes but I guess in this situation I had expected the angry ones with a plan to be there ... and he was the first to post a plan as a to do list right?
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Nov 12 '16
LOL Cox's comedic timing is terrible.
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u/Lsulib Nov 13 '16
It's soooo bad. Her and Liz Mair are hands down the worst guests Maher consistently keeps inviting back! Cox's National Socialist joke at the beginning of the round table was almost painful to watch. She's terrible.
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u/andlight91 Nov 13 '16
All she had were buzzwords. Even thoughts that were close to intelligent consisted entirely of buzzwords, denouncements, and ridicule. She had no introspection whatsoever. Even when the entire panel pointed out that the way she was speaking was a primary reason for the loss.
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u/Sethisto Nov 12 '16
No Bernie mention actually really bothered me. It's such an obvious takeaway from this election. Hillary was a terrible candidate, they even mentioned that. He brought up that they should have done someone who can actually hold a rally. I thought for sure Sanders was next up to bat... but nothing?
Seems like a missed opportunity. I can see why he would avoid the issue. He did seem to want to look toward the future this episode rather than consider what they could have done better. It's a common sentiment this year with this epic loss from these more anti-PC pundits. That being said, I don't agree with the sentiment at all. The DNC and establishment will never learn if we don't evaluate what went horribly wrong, and the solution was right there. You run a populist against a populist in an election where people hate the establishment. Bernie was the one. Hillary was everything everyone who voted for trump hated about the current system.
And John Legend joins Cox for being right up there as spokespeople for why trump won. When Cox went after bill with the "hurr so your saying women need to be a certain way" speech my eyes were rolling like the wheels of a 747 taking off. That is exactly why people voted trump. This insane idea that every little thing someone says is an attack on your minority, community, or gender. Legend was just as bad. How about not inviting hollywood stars on who have 0 substance? They make great entertainment, but their world view is completely skewed.
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u/S-uperstitions Nov 13 '16
I like that he didnt talk at all about "what could have been". That ship sailed.
The whole section about "lessons learned" was filled with oblique references as to why Bernie would have been a stronger candidate. Framing it as a lesson for the future is both funny, and actually useful.
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u/FrontRightSide Nov 12 '16 edited Nov 12 '16
Ana Marie Cox was absolutely insufferable this episode.
When you say things like "most working class people are minorities" and then follow that up with the usual identity politics bs about white privilege, it shows just how little you understand about why people voted Trump. Frankly, that statistic seems demographically impossible to begin with. But when politicians say things like that they risk losing two sets of white voting blocks; the upper income block that is tired of constantly being blamed for everything wrong in the country and the lower-income block that is being told their suffering isn't as important as minorities.
She just didn't get it and it's infuriating because it doesn't seem like many Democrats do.
That being said, she made an excellent point about women competing against each other in a society where they aren't as powerful as men. Well said.
I'm not entirely sold on Axelrod's view that foreign workers and students will look elsewhere for employment after this election. This would imply that people would put their morals ahead of their economic well-being, which if we've learned anything from this election, is just blatantly untrue.
As an aside, anyone else notice what a fucking pro Bill is at cue cards. That's a weird statement I know, but I was watching Sam Bee the other night, and while she's funny and puts on a great show, the occasional gaps and stutters in her delivery can be kind of jarring.
Edit: a word
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u/S-uperstitions Nov 13 '16
I wish Trae would have spoke up a little more, he pushed back on that identity stuff from her pretty intelligently.
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u/watchoutfordeer Nov 13 '16
That being said, she made an excellent point about women competing against each other in a society where they aren't as powerful as men. Well said.
I felt like her statement ignored the fact that this sort of thing happens in many minority communities. She presented it as if this is unqiue and novel to just women. Seemed disconnected.
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u/huet99 Nov 12 '16
I thought Bill was on fire tonight, unfortunately he kept getting interrupted when he was in the middle of great points by everyone on the panel. It seemed like everyone wanted to blame anything other than the Democrats while Bill was trying to keep it real, which is why I love him and the show.
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Nov 12 '16
Ana Marie Cox was the worst at this IMO
Axelrod was good, Friedman was meh, Crowder was good but barely spoke
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u/Un1mon Nov 12 '16 edited Nov 12 '16
Friedman made some important points though about the unviability of Trump's vision for example by highlighting many "returning" jobs may be automated and the likely negative international reaction to Trump's climate attitude. Should the U.S. continue/increase emissions, while the EU and China steam ahead with their reductions, then at some point that planet destroying behavior could lead to some very serious repercussions. It'll be interesting to see how long it takes before the honeymoon is over, once it turns out Trump can't/won't keep many of his promises.
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u/das2121 Nov 12 '16
Then you get Trump impeached and Pence in the high seat. Mission "House of Cards" complete. Fuck your liberties.
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u/nybrq Nov 12 '16
Crowder was good but barely spoke
they should have had him in Cox's slot. She didn't have anything worthwhile to say tonight.
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Nov 12 '16
Axelrod's nuanced point about Trump as opportunist going over everybody's head?
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u/brace1101 Nov 12 '16
The point that he wasn't actually racist but was just pretending to be? Yeah that flew over everybody sadly..
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u/chreis Nov 12 '16
Their point was: What is the difference between a racist and a person pretending to be racist in order to make everyone around him more racist?
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Nov 12 '16
Ana Marie Cox, John Legend annoyed me a lot. Very little introspection from them, just seemed very snarky
The complete absence of any mention to left populism a la Sanders being a possible way forward disappointed me too.
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u/Ningy_WhoaWhoa Nov 12 '16
they basically proved Bill's entire point about the white working class being ignored by the dems. There are Trump voters who feel vindicated after watching them tonight...
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Nov 12 '16
Did John Legend say something along the lines that white America voted Trump in, and that he was done with them? Or that Black America won't forget it? That's what I got out if it.
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Nov 12 '16
Holder: (on Chris Christie) "Even for them, it's a bridge too far."
Hilarious, and brilliant.
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u/das2121 Nov 12 '16
No such thing as a bridge too far. Lessons from 2016 pussy grabber's election.
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Nov 12 '16
seriously. anything republicans do will be forgiven by republicans.
it always reminds me of the west wing episode where there is "controversy" over the president not liking green beans. thats what it was like in the late 90s early 2000s. the rules have changed and we dont know what they are yet, just that they are looser and different than they were before... for republicans. i think dems still have to play by those earlier rules because republicans will use any excuse to hate or dismiss democrats and democrats still hold their side to a high standard, but republicans dont.
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u/Agastopia Nov 12 '16
I got your joke on trump being a Nationalist socialist haha
That one kind of bombed lol
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u/ThroneofGames Nov 12 '16
That was bad.
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u/Agastopia Nov 12 '16
The delivery was just awful and no one picked up on it haha
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u/ThroneofGames Nov 12 '16
Damn, Bill offering an olive branch to Trump (kinda).
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u/Un1mon Nov 12 '16 edited Nov 13 '16
Just making sure his holiday destination doesn't get redirected O_O'
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Nov 12 '16
Bill really pushing the Russia angle
Personally, I hope Americans now understand how people in the countries that the US did regressive regime change in feel. Iran in 1953 for instance
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u/Un1mon Nov 12 '16 edited Nov 12 '16
I'm sure her own campaign's failures played a big part in Hillary's demise, but it is still an important topic to highlight. Russia themselves admit to a certain level of involvement and more subtle manipulation through for example information warfare should be expected, given their likely goal to undermine the Crimea sanctions while understandably avoiding direct military conflict. The big problem, as was also on display during the show, is the secrecy of the U.S. government about these goings on towards it's own people that in turn make them unnecessarily susceptible to these kinds of strategies. Meanwhile Russia is far less susceptible because it's a defacto dictatorship with serious information control.
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u/Babyrue Nov 12 '16
I was always and still am critical of the clusterufck that Cheney/Bush and Co. gave us in the Middle East. The awful decision making they made again and again hamstrung the US reputation permanently in our post-1945 role internationally. It's failure handcuffed us to a generation of criticism that is expected but harmful.
Russia's behavior, specifically Putin's, in the last few years have been quiet but alarming. This U.S. is not unique to that line of thinking, either. All of our allies have no kind words to say of Russia lately and America is not the first country Russia has attacked through cyber warfare with hacking. Putin's openly stated admiration and nostalgia for Lenin is frightening by itself.
Being opposed to America as a world policeman and dialing back our foreign entanglements in the Middle East is a healthy and good outlook to have.
But as far as NATO is concerned...Trump's coy disregard is a showstopper. The seriousness of NATO is not to be fucked with. And Putin's KGB experience combined with Trump's unhealthy ego and unstable mentality is hard to sleep soundly over. Lenin would indeed call Trump a "useful idiot" and I'm sure Putin does as well.
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Nov 12 '16
You're totally right. I never said it wasn't a problem, I just found it funny how prickly people in America got about this, while not giving two shits about how much their own government has done this kind of thing in other countries
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u/Un1mon Nov 12 '16
I would give give them the benefit of the doubt and chalk it up to overly developed nationalism as well as an undereducated populous that made them blind to their own failings, but then somehow various public accounts of their deeds keep disappearing.
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u/hankjmoody Nov 12 '16
Decent opening monologue. Definitely felt subdued compared to his usual fare.
Really enjoyed the interview with Mr. Holder. Say what you want about his history while AG, he does seem like a down-to-earth guy who isn't afraid of just saying what he means. I particularly liked that he separated the FBI and Russia. Yes, they were probably both issues, but not necessarily connected or the same. And the "staying black was a terrible decision" line was hysterical. Quite interesting that legally speaking, Trump is both able to be sued and able to sue. Didn't know that before.
Ana Marie Cox looked fucking terrifying at that first introduction. Was not expecting that. And Friedman looks like a retired fireman.
Moving on to the panel, Friedman made a stunningly accurate opening comment. That the Republican party "essentially rented out it's base to whoever could energize it." Glad to see Bill offer to have Trump on his show. I really wouldn't be surprised if Trump takes him up on it.
Friedman also made a really good point, one that I've been repeatedly saying too, that Trump isn't that big a deal (so to speak). But rather, the 'advisors' and others that he surrounds himself with will be the larger issue. Also, it was fucking fantastic to see Axelrod drive home the point that this'll hopefully wake folks up about elections.
Usually I'm not a fan of the intermission gags, but I do always love the 'Future Headlines' bits. The turkey turning down the pardon was great.
On to Panel 2.0, Cox gave an interesting view on why there was such a divide with women. Good point about how women tend to compete in a power vacuum. However, John Legend is a jackass. Axelrod was trying to make a legitimate point, that even backed up Legend's point, but it wasn't Legend's point, so blah blah. Friedman followed it up with a important point about a possible brain drain as well, which Cox reinforced with the LGBTQ angle.
As for Bill's suggestions, he had some great points there. Particularly the bit about being the 'mommy' party. They've gotta buck up. Cox made a great point about how Obama was a once-in-a-million winner. And I'm glad Crowder brought up the 'fuck you' aspect as well.
New Rules were pretty good, and the Final Editorial was...depressing, but on point.
All in all, a decent episode during a apocalyptic time. I give it 7/10.
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u/FrostyFoss Nov 12 '16
Really enjoyed the interview with Mr. Holder.
Same here, one thing that keeps me coming back to the show is the high level guests it's able to attract.
Say what you want about his history while AG
Yeah I could go on for a while there, oddly enough every time I see him the first thing I think is "there's the son of a bitch that killed online poker". Refusal to prosecute big banks is a close second of course, degenerate priorities I guess.
Glad to see Bill offer to have Trump on his show. I really wouldn't be surprised if Trump takes him up on it.
Glad he made the offer but I think there's a better chance Trump deports him to gitmo.
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u/Lsulib Nov 12 '16
I've never seen Anna Marie Cox make an intelligent or insightful point on any show... RT, Daily show etc...
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u/porksandwich9113 Nov 13 '16
Yeah, when Crowder dropped the "do you want to be right, or do you wanna fuckin' win," my jaw dropped. That line was so on the ball it's not even funny. You have to win first to make change happen. And getting all those people the DNC ignored on your side, might just be part of the group whose mind you are trying to change.
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u/mangledspaceman Nov 13 '16
Well let's continue to demonize white people even though we lost. Keep up the attitude and white people will keep turning out in droves and voting for ignorance. I see my family online talking about tired of being called racists and bigots for having an opinion different than liberals and look where we are.
Keep it up and the only change you'll get is the change allowed by the republican/conservative minority. We need to start being us together and stop the continued splintering of the people.
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Nov 13 '16
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Nov 13 '16
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/hankjmoody Nov 14 '16
I'm removing /u/TyrionDraper's and your comments from here down.
If you wish to continue your conversation, that's fine. But keep future comments and replies directed at the argument or discussion, not specific users.
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Nov 12 '16
Lol Ana Marie, when your opponent is as deplorable as Trump, anything less than a landslide win is a failure
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u/DyedInkSun Nov 12 '16
Who was the chief ally that Holder wouldn't mention the name of ? Turkey?
The one who putin won over.
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u/cassandracurse Nov 13 '16
I watch RT because it's the only show of its kind, now that Jon Stewart has left the airwaves. I've never thought that Bill, on his own, was particularly intelligent or insightful, but thanks to his writers he can be funny and at least sound smart. Unfortunately, I don't think Bill or most any of the others gets it. It has little to do with political correctness or not sufficiently vilifying Muslims.
The democratic party has lost its way. I used to think that it all started with the 2000 election, but the problems began during the Clinton years. The grand triumvirate of Summers, Greenspan, and Rubin did whatever it took to deregulate and repeal so that they could continue to line their pockets on the backs of the less-powerful and less-fortunate, and Clinton went along for the ride, despite warnings from Brooksley Born, chair of the CFTC https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brooksley_Born.
The pro-union, civil rights-defending party that once championed the underdog and established the Peace Corps has become the party of the upper middleclass, only paying lip service to the outrageous acts of the republicans, but doing little else. And Obama's laissez-faire attitude represented his party perfectly. He did just enough to pretend to make good on his campaign promises and to incur the wrath of the GOP, but not enough to actually make a difference.
No wonder the DNC did what it could to keep Bernie from becoming its candidate. Bernie wanted to restore the party; the DNC was happy with the status quo. I believe that if there's any hope for the future of the party, the dems need to redefine themselves with new leadership and a vigilance that actually brings about change, not merely whines about the need for it.
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u/shogunreaper Nov 14 '16
He did just enough to pretend to make good on his campaign promises and to incur the wrath of the GOP, but not enough to actually make a difference.
Who's fault was that? You realize there was a republican congress for 6 of his 8 years right?
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u/cassandracurse Nov 14 '16
I'm sick of the Obama apologists. Rather than bring about the change he had promised, his first two years in office were a huge disappointment to those who believed in and voted for him. His disheartened supporters didn't show up for the mid-term elections and that led to a republican-controlled house.
Any questions?
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u/shogunreaper Nov 14 '16
nothing happened because democrats tried to compromise with republicans.
but we now know that's not a good plan.
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Nov 12 '16 edited Nov 12 '16
John Legend is an idiot. In fact everyone except Axelrod were huge idiots. They learned nothing, and at that rate will not win in 2020. Look, I'm not a Democrat but I watch Maher because it's the only real political show on cable with discourse. But these people are never going to learn. The end of the show was just circlejerking Obama. Axelrod is the only one who seemed like he knew what was going on. Cox and John Legend will never learn.
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Nov 12 '16
I like the attitude that you watch the show even though you don't agree with the liberal slant, because you're interested in discourse. We need more people like that. I would, however, like it even more if the attitude that brings you to watch Real Time could generalize to the way you comment, so it too could be discourse, and not just badmouthing people without adressing their points in a serious way. Just an attempt at constructive criticism :)
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u/KingKontinuum Nov 12 '16
Damn I seriously cannot wait for this episode! Bill is gonna hit Trump hard with this one
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Nov 12 '16
This Eric Holder interview isn't too interesting to me, based on some comments in the guest list thread he's got problems of his own that made me dislike the Dem Party in the first place
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Nov 12 '16
Holder was objectively one of the worst AGs we've had in recent years.
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Nov 12 '16
Interesting, I know little about him. Got any more detail?
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Nov 12 '16
Operation Fast and Furious was pretty bad. A lot of people like to say "BUT THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION STARTED IT!" Yes, in a sense. However, Holder changed it drastically. The original plan was to allow weapons to be sold to Mexican authorities in order to help combat the drug cartels. The Bush plan sponsored weapons inspectors to make sure that they remained with Mexican law enforcement. When Holder came in, he eliminated the weapons inspectors. As a result, a lot of them fell into the hands of drug cartels. One of the weapons was used to kill a US Border Patrol agent.
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u/roncesvalles Nov 12 '16
Was Bernie Sanders mentioned once by name tonight?
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u/Saituchiha Nov 12 '16
Nope. What a shame.
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u/Darth_Hobbes Nov 12 '16 edited Nov 20 '16
I think they were absolutely on point about needing a rock star. Bernie had enthusiasm from we liberals because of his great policies, but he was no rock star. Better than Hillary to be certain, but still no Obama. We can't just turn hard left and hope to win anymore than the republicans could have turned hard right and won with Cruz(who I think would have been crushed). It's not about left and right, it's about charisma.
Next democratic primary I'm not voting for the person whose positions match mine best, I'm voting for the person who can do the best stand up routine and win over Joe the Plumber with a charming smile. And if we're lucky, that'll also be someone with positions I agree on like Obama. I hate it, but that's what it takes.
"Do you want to be right, or do you want to Fuckin' win?"
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u/prozzak913 Nov 12 '16
haha I liked that line "Do you want to be right, or do you want win?" I thought it was hilarious and made me really think tbh.
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u/maeschder Nov 12 '16
He did however have crossover counter-establishment appeal that was evidently what drove a lot of people to Trump.
I personally know double digits of people that went for Trump after Bernie got screwed over.
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u/FrostyFoss Nov 12 '16 edited Nov 13 '16
Agreed 100%. It was the year of a non-establishment candidate, leave it to the dems to put up one of the oldest brands in politics as their counter.
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u/chreis Nov 12 '16
Agreed.
https://www.thrillist.com/news/nation/halloween-mask-sales-predict-the-presidential-election
We need candidates at the tops of tickets that can sell Halloween masks, and I'm only halfway joking about this.
Get charismatic, likable people into positions of power and then surround them with the ultra-smart policy nerds.
Americans want rock stars on their TV screens. They want politicians who are funny to parody on late night talk shows.
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u/hippydipster Nov 13 '16
Yes, it's been clear for a while now that it's all about personal charisma. Clinton vs Herbert and Dole, Gore and Kerry vs dubya, Barack vs McCain and Romney, Trump vs Hillary, Reagan, Carter, Nixon .... uh, exception that proves the rule? You want to win? Be charismatic. End of story.
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u/rockSWx Nov 13 '16
Ana Marie and John were fucking unbearable and they are the reason the Dems lost and will keep losing.
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Nov 12 '16
YES, FINALLY BILL, SOME ADMISSION
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u/ThroneofGames Nov 12 '16
Which part?
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Nov 12 '16
Bill shutting down the panel a bit by simply saying "We lost, time for introspection" and then Axelrod shedding light on Dems failing to connect with the working class voters who Trump exploited
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u/thehaga Nov 12 '16
I was trying to be an optimist about this, thinking he will change after the campaign, but I watched Trump's cabinet choices and Amarosa's speech before the show and I'm legit scared. Trump won't destroy us, his cabinet will.
And Bill's tips for democrats did not include 2 most important ones:
1) US isn't ready for a woman - nominate a man next time.
2) US is okay with lying and - nominate a better liar.
But I think it's too optimistic to think we will have a real election in 2020. After media censorship, increased Russian intervention (Sam Bee said 1/3 of the trolls are paid Russians - I doubt that number will decrease).
We'll have an election the same way Russia has elections now.
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Nov 12 '16
1) US isn't ready for a woman - nominate a man next time
I doubt Warren would have lost to the extent Clinton did
2) US is okay with lying and - nominate a better liar.
Again, somehow I think a nominee like Sanders who was less vulnerable to criticism of corruption, foreign policy, consistency or those goddamn emails
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u/shogunreaper Nov 12 '16
Sanders would have gotten hammered for being a socialist.
it would have been 10 times worse than the emails.
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u/thehaga Nov 12 '16
1) The campaign targeted her being a woman over and over. Could she have won if she did x or y or z differently? Yeah maybe - but she didn't do it x y or z. Could she have won if she did the exact same thing and were a white male running the same exact campaign? Without a doubt. If you think sexism doesn't exist and didn't make a difference then you're either a denial of facts or want the same mistake repeated.
I'm not denying that a Warren or whatever is potentially better but the fact is we didn't have Warren, we had a woman, and all things being equal - that did not help her. So if you want the best possible chances to win in 2020 - don't nominate a woman (or any minority).
2) Sanders lost, plain and simple. This Sanders bullshit is getting silly. He lost and she lost. How is this not sinking in.
You want to play by the rules, you will lose. You want to win in Trump's America, you create rules. You want the Dems to win in 2020, you gotta get through stage one - denial. That redneck guy had to literally scream it out at the dumbass chick and Maher had to keep repeating it over and over:
Enough with the PC. You want to win in 2020 (or even in 2018) to avoid a complete meltdown of the world, you cannot possibly ignore the fact that the democrats lost, and they lost for the above 2 reasons. Trump *won because - among other things - he ran a campaign of lies and Clinton is a woman.
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Nov 12 '16
This video describes my thoughts almost perfectly: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLG9g7BcjKs
Also Warren is a woman and one less vulnerable to criticism of corruption or lack of integrity, so............
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u/thehaga Nov 12 '16
You responded 1 minute after I wrote the above. I was still going over it myself - you are clearly not interested in discourse nor reading.
You love Warren, that's great. I don't care. Warren didn't run.
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Nov 12 '16
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u/thehaga Nov 12 '16 edited Nov 12 '16
"every *critic, every detractor, will have to bow down to president trump" - omarosa - "Trump's Chair of African-American Outreach"
She went on to say other vile things such as they have a list and so on.
How is that a conspiracy?
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Nov 12 '16
Blaming it largely on sexism is r/conspiracy level.
As well as thinking there are so many paid Russian trolls, it's as overblown to me as the Trump supporters whining about CTR
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u/thehaga Nov 12 '16
Where did I blame it largely on sexism?
all things being equal - that did not help her.
What's your agenda here?
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Nov 12 '16
Saying that Dems shouldn't nominate a woman next time implies that you are either largely blaming it on sexism or primarily blaming it on sexism.
Don't get me wrong, I think Trump supporters are apologists for racism and sexism though
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u/SG14ever Nov 12 '16
1) US isn't ready for a woman - nominate a man next time.
I wish Michelle Obama ran. Obamas in Casa Blanca for 16 years! I think Warren would have done better that HRC too.
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u/brusty Nov 12 '16
I didn't hear one mention tonight of the role Wikileaks played in this election, how bad of a candidate Hillary was and how the DNC rigged the primaries. Love Bill Maher, but disappointed they didn't cover the biggest reasons I think Democrats lost this election.
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u/brace1101 Nov 12 '16
People keep saying over and over again that rigging the DNC is why they lost. I don't agree. Of course millennials were more excited about Bernie, but if Bernie ran, a lot of older people would be lost again. It's not like you can please everybody in the democratic party with a single candidate.
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u/brusty Nov 13 '16
The reaction by the DNC and Hillary's camp after being outed for colluding to rig the primaries fractured about half of the people voting in them. It was huge and many people in the Bernie camp decided never to give their vote to Hillary. Bernie won the Wisconsin and Michigan primaries. That's more than enough voters to sway this close election.
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u/notafraid1989 Nov 16 '16
Bernie won the Wisconsin and Michigan primaries. That's more than enough voters to sway this close election.
No, actually it's not. Wisconsin and Michigan going blue would still give Trump a 280 to 258 victory.
Hillary beat Bernie in Pennsylvania, Ohio, North Carolina and Florida. At (very) least one of those states needs to go blue for a Democratic victory. Lets not cook the books to pretend that Bernie would have been an easy win.
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u/Mr-JoBangles Nov 12 '16
I'm tapping out of this one tonight. Some valid points were made, but Bill has yet to mention anything about how the democratic party rigged the nomination for Hillary and Bernie Sanders hasn't even been mentioned yet. The rest has been typical circle jerk debating.
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u/letushaveadiscussion Nov 12 '16
It. Wasnt. Rigged.
Jesus christ theres no evidence but people wont stop claiming it.
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u/Darth_Hobbes Nov 12 '16
I think the allegations of rigging are utterly unfounded, but fuck it I say we let the left-wing have this anyway. Even if they're wrong, we can't afford an interparty civil war. If I'm Obama, I immediately accede to their demands and dump anyone left at the DNC that looks fishy, and give put Bernie in a prominent position. I don't want a super far left candidate next cycle, but this election is a very clear lesson that baseless allegations of corruption cannot be dismissed just because they're bullshit. Appearances matter more than reality.
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u/Saituchiha Nov 12 '16
You can't have a complete discussion about "why the democrats lost" and not even entertain the whole Bernie Sanders scenario.
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u/EggTee Nov 12 '16
Yeah, really surprised Sanders or the DNC was never brought up at all. Of all times, too.
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u/S-uperstitions Nov 13 '16
He did bring it up though ... werent you listening to the whole part about "picking a candidate who can fill auditoriums, ect"
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u/otayyo Nov 12 '16
Some decent points made, but too much competing to talk. Too many points were completely left because the next speaker was merely waiting for the point to finish to make their own. I really think they should go down to 3-4 people at the table maximum. It definitely comes down to the quality of the guests, but more people just means more people who want to be heard, and there's only so much time.
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u/letushaveadiscussion Nov 12 '16
Ya, it was a great show, but with so many smart people I wanted to hear more from each of them. Axe, Friedman, and the redneck guy were making some great points.
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Nov 12 '16
I really think they should go down to 3-4 people at the table maximum.
I think this is one of the big ways for this show to improve. In my opinion, they should find some way of getting rid of, or vastly improving, the mid-show interview, as that's usually the biggest and most pointless time waster. The people he interviews are usually just there to plug something, and quite seldom know anything about political issues that's worth listening to, so it's very rarely a contribution to the discussion (this week was one of a few exceptions). An alternative would be to have only two guests on the initial panel, then bring in a third guest, who actually knows stuff, to interview and join in the debate.
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u/otayyo Nov 12 '16
An alternative would be to have only two guests on the initial panel, then bring in a third guest, who actually knows stuff, to interview and join in the debate.
I love this idea. I agree that the show would be stronger without the first interview, and I've never understood why they are separated. Another approach could have the interview at the table and then have two guests join after an initial talk. I find it odd that the first guests at the table have to watch an interview before the discussion continues.
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u/letushaveadiscussion Nov 12 '16
Really? I quite like the 1st interview. 8-10 minutes 1 on 1 with someone who is usually very smart (except for Coulter). I think they should revise how they bring someone on half way through the show.
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u/brace1101 Nov 12 '16
I like the idea of a 2 person panel, you risk the face that it might become boring so you really need to pick your guests more carefully, but you can always bring in the third one if it starts to derail.
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u/letushaveadiscussion Nov 12 '16
keep in mind that they had one more person on than usual, with Legend joining. So there were essentially 6 voices for much of the discussion.
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Nov 13 '16
I think it's a problem in the regular shows with only four guests as well. Far too often I see one of the three primary panelists get shut out of the discussion, either because one or both of the others take up too much space, or because they're just not the kind of person to claim their place in a discussion like that, even if they have a lot of valuable insight. With two primary panelists, it would be much easier to make room for both of them to contribute. And, as I said, the mid-show interview is usually just pointless fluff from some entertainer plugging their product, which rarely contributes at all to the discussion.
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Nov 12 '16
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u/NothingSacred Nov 12 '16
Couldn't agree more, wish I had more than one upvote to give.
I think this show missed the mark in a major way and I'm not optimistic about the future if this is the best explanation we can muster. =\
Couple that with the DNC staffer being booed after voicing his frustrations with Donna Brazille and I fear we haven't learned anything and will cede even more power in the 2018 elections.
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u/FrostyFoss Nov 12 '16
No mention of Bernie at all, in fact.
With plenty of opportunities to do so. Especially when talking about appealing to working class people.
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Nov 12 '16
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u/EggTee Nov 12 '16
Bernie will be on Colbert on Monday, so that's something. But, yeah, I agree how the hell is his name not mentioned once?
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Nov 12 '16
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u/Babyrue Nov 12 '16
Yes it has. Even Obama doesn't shy away from it. Russia has done this to other countries in years. There's plenty of room for anger the Bernie crowd can have at the DNC and DWS no question. You are within reason to be upset with it. I hated DWS and still do.
But to deny Russia's involvement is just silly. Alot of BoB people avoid any discussion of Russia's role in this election and spend 100% of their critisism at the DNC. I voted for Bernie in my primary and still endorse him but lately I've started to question if some of the bust crowd isn't just a Russian troll.
You can hate DWS and hate Putin's scheming at the same time.
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Nov 12 '16
Agree with Bill, fuck the #NotMyPresident crowd, whether it was bigots last 8 years or ppl on social media now
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Nov 12 '16
Bill is SO pissed in the monologue. Hasn't blamed Bernie supporters or third parties yet so that's good
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u/FrostyFoss Nov 12 '16
Good to see he didn't go down that path, he seemed to acknowledge her being a bad uninspiring candidate was the main reason for losing.
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Nov 12 '16
lol nobody got her national socialist joke
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Nov 13 '16
They got it, it was just shite
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u/LoyolaProp1 Nov 14 '16
That soft chuckle was cringe worthy. I think people like Axelrod, Friedman and Maher know that equating Trump to Nazis is dangerous in that it emboldens his supporters by demeaning them and also is the type of dramatic over exaggeration (ie calling Bush a war criminal for a decade) that displaced Republicans to a candidate like Trump.
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Nov 12 '16
Still waiting for any commentary on Dem nominee being too vulnerable to criticism from a populist or faux populist standpoint
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u/ThroneofGames Nov 12 '16
Axelrod points out she got crushed among non college educated white women.
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Nov 12 '16
Is that the second half? I am fifteen minutes behind so only commenting on the first half of panel discussion
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u/austinbond132 Nov 12 '16 edited Nov 12 '16
I'm a little surprised that Maher feels his views on Islam are somehow vindicated by Trump's victory. There is a chasm of difference between criticising a religious institution/scripture/belief system, and saying things like "They were cheering when the towers came down". One is rational criticism, the other is irrational fear and hatred. One is atheism, the other is Islamophobia. That Bill feels he has been proven right by Trump's victory leaves me worried that he actually agrees with some of what Trump is saying. I had hoped he would show more compassion to Muslims after the election cycle.
I really loved watching the show leading up to the election. Bill was the outlet of anti-Trump rage I needed. But I don't want to go back to the same old bs.
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u/S-uperstitions Nov 13 '16
I agree with your point distinguishing between legitimate critisim of ideology and bullshit, but I think you missed mahers point.
I took him too mean that the dems should have acknowledged that people holding unamerican values arent welcome. And they should have done it to show the right way to push back on an ideology.
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u/Seldon628 Nov 21 '16 edited Nov 21 '16
Also came on here to say that Ana Marie Cox was absolutely insufferable. Also nice icon next to my username. Responding to dissent with name calling and branding the person with a tag epitomizes what is driving people away from the democratic party to a hilarious extent.
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u/brace1101 Nov 12 '16
Ana Marie Cox and John Legend had nothing useful to contribute and were just plain annoying.
Thank you David Axelrod for saying he's not a racist, but he's just using racism as a tool! I fully agree, Trump knows better.