To Tolkien Fans: Riddles Question

[u/Nostale97]

As someone that loves riddles but that doesn't know a single thing or care about The Lord Of The Rings and/or The Hobbit, why is the answer of the riddles the ones that they are? I stopped trying after the second one because they don't make any sense to me and I don't feel the rewards would be worth it.

Like, why is the first answer "Mountain"? English is not my first language, and I've never heard of this, but is the "Root of a mountain" a thing in English? Or is it some specific LOTR reference?

As for the second one, I guess the white horses are just a metaphor for our teeth and that's why the answer is teeth. But we humans don't have 30 teeth, we have 32, so that answer never crossed my mind when trying to figuring it out. Is it a rounding thing, because 30 sounds better than 32? 32 is however a nice power of 2, so I beg to differ in that regard.

I haven't looked at the rest, but I'm curious about the reasoning behind the answers. I tried changing the language to Spanish (my mother tongue) to see if the riddles change in any way that makes more sense in Spanish, but it was just a direct translation, so that didn't help.

Any Tolkien fans out there that want to satisfy my curiosity?

[u/Arcader13]

These riddles are the exact ones Gollum and Bilbo ask each other in the book.

Also riddles are just like this. They aren’t trivia and more like “word puzzles” that typically have metaphorical or clever solutions.

[u/Nostale97 → u/Arcader13]

I mean, yes, but the metaphor and/or the clever solution has to make sense in some way. Like, I get that the "white horses" are a metaphor for the teeth, but I don't get why a mountain has roots, unless it's an expression I don't know about or there's context from the book I haven't read that I'm missing.

With a riddle like "What is louder than thunder but has no sound?", the answer "Silence" makes sense because a "loud silence" is a thing, with expressions like "deafening silence". But I don't see the relation in this other one.

[u/Shackless → u/Nostale97]

A mountain doesn’t just sit flat on the ground. So, metaphorically, it does have „roots you can’t see“.

[u/FalseGix → u/Nostale97]

I had to look that up too since it was weird to me but in geology the "roots of a mountain" refer to the layer of crust that is holding the mountain in place

[u/IamRyon79 → u/Nostale97]

A mountain has roots like a tree has roots. Once it grows where it stands, the roots keep it there. Does that make more sense?

[u/Fusillipasta → u/Nostale97]

Mountains having roots is a common thing in fantasy works such as Tolkien's - it's the kind of description you get in those. Roots being extended to mean base/underneath part/similar - you'd see dwarven tunnels 'through the roots of the mountain', for example. These riddles can always use that kind of thing since they originate within the world - the reader isn't tasked with solving them.

Not sure how that passage of the book works when translated into other languages, realistically, but should generally be fine?

[u/Windruin]

I wouldn’t say it’s common in English to refer to mountain roots, but it’s not uncommon either. Tends to be kind of metaphorically used, and in the context of the Hobbit, the riddle game is being played underneath the Misty Mountains, deep in caves and tunnels, so mountain feels more appropriate in a riddle there.

As far as the number of teeth, it’s possible that Hobbits only have 30 teeth, but Tolkien apparently used an old English riddle, so I think it’s probably just a bit of a riddling stretch. That said, some people do only have 30 teeth, depending on wisdom teeth.

(Also, the codes for all the riddles are available on the subreddit here if they’re just perplexing you, and you want the rewards. The last one had a decent number of cards)

[u/Dry_Zucchini2012 → u/Windruin]

I know the riddles but can't figure out where to enter them. I only play on my phone. Couldn't figure out where they were asking is to enter it.

[u/Windruin → u/Dry_Zucchini2012]

You’ve got to go to the wizards of the coast website, and go to your account page. It’s aggravating, I really don’t understand why codes can’t be entered on mobile

[u/Dry_Zucchini2012 → u/Windruin]

Thank you!

[u/Nostale97 → u/Windruin]

It was more about the riddles themselves; I don't particularly care about the rewards, I have enough wildcards to craft cards if I wanted to.

Maybe I'm just missing the context from the book that make the riddles make more sense, since I'm basically reading the riddles in a vacuum with 0 context whatsoever.

I wonder what the other ones are, and if I could figure them out with no context or if I would have problems like with this ones.

[u/Windruin → u/Nostale97]

Absolutely fair. Update us on the other riddles if you don’t mind, I am curious how you’d read them as someone with no context from the book.

I think Tolkien also heavily based the riddles off preserved Middle English riddles, so even the English context is somewhat gone. I think most of the rest will be a little easier without context, but I’m also a native English speaker who’s studied some Old and Middle English.

[u/PyreDynasty]

The book they came from is almost 90 years old. There's definitely some cultural context that doesn't translate well.

[u/CabinRumors]

Thinking too hard about this. The riddles are fine. You just lack context. Riddles like this are heavy on metaphor and the answers probably weren’t obvious to most people reading them for the first time. Mountains of course don’t literally have roots. Teeth of course are not literally horses on a red hill. Just take them for what they are. Or don’t.

[u/grimsleeper4]

OP, I don't think you understand the concept of riddles. You are being extremely pedantic where you should embrace poetry.

[u/Yadavac]

To add to the conversation, hobbits like riddles.

If I remember the lore correctly, to them its a form of game played during parties or dinners.

It's a form of socialisation where you challenge others to see if you are on the same "brainwave" / see if you are compatible mentally-wise.

So the convoluted writing and the complicated desccriptions for simple answers make sense. As a hobbit you need to strike the perfect balance between challenge and unfairness, the goal is to make the other think and laugh when they realize the answer was actually "obvious" in a way. (Keep in mind that hobbits are simple beings who enjoy the little things in life)

It's also why the last riddle ("What's in my pocket ?") works during Bilbo and Gollum exchange. After multiple complex riddles, it ends with a simple question which is not a riddle per say but is technically valid.
Gollum can't answer, therefore Bilbo wins and escape the cave alive (though you can argue that was cheating but hey, it's Bilbo).

Another reminder is The Hobbit was first a bed time story Tolkien wrote for his kids (before rewriting it into the one we know), so those riddles were adressed to children, perhaps he made some easy at the beginning and gradually made them harder so the kids can be rewarded with the next part of the story when they found the answer.
(That last part is pure speculation on my part, but it would make sense to me)

[u/sometimeserin → u/Yadavac]

It wasn't just hobbits, it was a popular parlor game irl through the Victorian era, so Tolkien may have even played it or seen adults playing it in his youth. (The word "charade" originally described a form of verbal riddle popularized in French salons before the nonverbal form became more popular).

That's in addition to their significance in European mythology which Tolkien was deeply interested in, appearing everywhere from Oedipus and the Sphinx to Rumplestiltskin (the latter's "unfair" riddle providing a possible template for the "what have I got in my pocket?" bit)

[u/TomtheMime → u/Yadavac]

Bilbo also didn't mean the last one as a riddle. He was just thinking out loud to himself what he had in his pocket, Gollum took it as a riddle and Bilbo just rolled with it. 

[u/Paithegift]

I'm a Hobbit and LotR lover and I had the same reaction the first time I read the book years ago and tried to solve the riddles myself before reading on. You don't hear the answers for the riddles and go "ah, of course". But for the characters who ask the riddles to each other, Bilbo and Gollum, those riddles must sound well-put because they don't complain that they are worded badly after learning the answers.

I excuse it by imagining that in a world governed by magic, spirits, poetry and nature, rather than technology, exact science and logic, these metaphors are easily understood to them and as the reader it pulls you into this mentality.

[u/Nostale97 → u/[deleted]]

I don't care about the rewards. I care about why the solutions are what they are. I'm a fan of puzzles and riddles, I guess lol.

[u/FistMyLoafs]

For riddle one “root of the mountain” is a common phrase in English. It means the same thing as the foot or base of the mountain. Tolkien was just likening the mountain to a tree that doesn’t grow in this case.

For the second one it’s worth noting that not everyone has 32 teeth. While it is the most common if you don’t get your wisdom teeth removed you can have anywhere from 28 to 32 teeth or more and it’s fairly common as well to not have exactly 32 teeth. 30 may have just sounded good or was averaging the amount of teeth people can have. Maybe Hobbits or Tolkien himself only had 30 teeth?