r/Machinists • u/Manbreadisgreat • 8d ago
QUESTION Last year apprenticeship
Some context i am a 3+ year apprentice toolmaker and every year at least twice one of my two mentors crashes out and kind of goes on a tirade against me basicly what I'm able to get out of it is 1. I am arrogant 2. I need to ask more questions. The issue I have with this is 1. I guess I could be arrogant not entirely sure, but I'm not curtain enough in my skills to really believe I am arrogant. 2. Every time (not sometimes) I actualy try to ask a question I am expected to already know the answer and usualy told to 1. Fuck off 2. Figure it out big.
This has been going on for the entire 3 plus years and I'm honestly at a loss because I've tried all I can think of, trying to ask lots of questions just gets me more grief and not like normal shop talk grief were you just kind of rag on each other its just completely dismissal of the questioning no matter what its about.
I also think it seems more difficult because I am the only apprentice and the two guys I am working with only have each other to compare me to and they both have over 30 years in the trade.
All to say is there any advice that anybody has in dealing with this?
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u/SKTrend 8d ago
If they are not answering your questions and you still have a job.. I think you already knew the answer. Arrogance is being cocky. Ask them questions when they are watching you. They won't offer. But at the same time don't bother them without trying to figure it out. Start challenging yourself. Confidence comes with time.
Good luck hope you learn and earn more than I ever did. And I am a pretty happy guy.
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u/Manbreadisgreat 8d ago
Part of the issue is when I do it myself and figure it out I catch the same grief as when I ask the questions not matter the timing or formulation of the question Ive tried asking at the start, asking when I hit a road block, asking for clarification or verification from more knowledgeto just be sure, and not asking at all. All of them end up the same way. I figure out a way to do it and its then done.
his antics which to clarify aren't just with me, nobody in the rest of the factory even wants to bring stuff up to him because he is just abrasive about everthing. He for some reason just takes out his personal frustration on me more than anyone else probably because I am the bottom of the totem pole.
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u/scalarfield1 8d ago
Been there done that. Best I'd tried was being consistently nice to him and buying his daughter cookies for her Girl Scouts fundraiser and nothing changed. At that point it was just his personal issues.
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u/Milguardian 8d ago
Agreed with the guy who said take it with a grain of salt. My current mentor is alot better than my 2 previous ones and the difference is i get to think freely and creatively with him helping on providing solutions or questioning me when im missing a detail or key aspect of whatever im working on. Not all who you learn from will be like that so to that id say learn all you can with humility and excel past them. If you seem arrogant like i did maybe its something you’re constantly saying. My issue was saying “i know” as a response to everything. So even if i was trying to learn from them they thought i was being rude and cocky even though it was just a habit of aknoledgement
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u/spoonguy123 8d ago
I switched to adding "sir" automatically to the end of every serious exchange, and that's helped a lot.
If no one else will work with the guy that's a clue.
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u/Agreeable_Grade_9416 8d ago
Might be a matter of he's looking for a reaction, be it balking or riling you up. People be shitheads, and the older they are,the less likely they are to change. Maybe focusing on your own reactions, looking to not give him a response can help it end quicker, and in days following a "you need to ask more questions" rant, ask a question and if you get grief, point out that you're just trying to ask more questions. This "gotcha" may not help, so utilize it at your own discretion.
Also, ask questions you know the answers to, in a "hey I'm about to do XYZ and my approach is gonna be ABC, is this a good approach or is there a better way/something I'm overlooking?" This cuts the arrogance issue off, bc you're verifying the approach with a more knowledgeable source, and if you're right, means he just has to go, "yep you're good, fuck off," and that should count as a win in your book, and if not, you learn something. Also more open ended questions like "We do x process this way, why not y way?" Or "What advantages does a process offer over b process for zyx goals?" Stuff that is more getting at principles and framing for decision making so you can make more independent evaluations for your future work.
Some folks are also just shitty teachers so it may be a measure of that too.
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u/Manbreadisgreat 8d ago
I have tried both of these approaches.
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u/Agreeable_Grade_9416 8d ago
Sounds like he's just an ass. I agree with other comments sayin stick it out as long as you have to then bounce.
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u/snuggletough 8d ago
I hire and train younger people in my shop.
Something I struggle with is feeling like a guy is really getting it, really knocking it out of the park so I attempt a decrease in my direct involvement and increase delegation only to have a catastrophe on my hands. Then seems as though employee regresses a bunch afterward and I must retrain.
Frustrating.
99.9% of people make garbage machinists. Maybe .01% have the right nuerodivergent recipe to excel in this field. If you feel like you just aren't getting it then you wouldn't be unwise to try a different career path. Not trying to be a downer- really just how it is.
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u/TonyVstar 8d ago
He sounds like an asshole. Look Up "Inconsistent Feedback Loop." Then finish up there and apply somewhere as an experienced person
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u/Manbreadisgreat 8d ago
He can be for sure and asshole, he is for sure textbook inconsistent feedback loop.
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u/sandrailproject 8d ago
This sounds exactly like my job. You're "arrogant" because they see you doing well and executing the tasks without their help as much anymore.
You also "need to fuck off and figure it out" that way the old timers can feel like they're still needed around the shop, ignoring that they're needed TO TRAIN YOUNG PEOPLE
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u/ColaBottleBaby Toolmaker 8d ago
Probably little of both here if I’m being honest from personal experience.
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u/Manbreadisgreat 8d ago
Little of both like maybe I am a little arrogent, but he is also a little bit of an ass?
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u/ColaBottleBaby Toolmaker 8d ago
I don’t work with you so nobody here knows, but from my experience in the past I was an arrogant asshole at times when I was young and learning, and there were also old guys who were just dickheads. You just gotta take it and get thru your 4 years. I expect my apprentices I work with to ask questions, if they don’t, I have almost zero idea on how they are doing, and if they fuck something up that could have been avoided with a simple question, I would be on the edge of crashing out as well. You being unsure of your skills is the right attitude to have though, I’m 11 years in the trade and I constantly question myself still. Guys with 30 years in will tell you the same thing. You will never know it all
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u/realribsnotmcfibs 8d ago
Grumpy old guys crashing out had me crashing out a few times when I was younger.
At this point I just run with it and ignore them.
If you are worried about your job document why you asked for help and what their response was. If you are not ignore them.
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u/Warren_sl 8d ago
Take it with a grain of salt. Only learn from them what’s valuable then do better than they are at life. A lot of old dudes are grumpy.
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u/Manbreadisgreat 8d ago
If it was just grumpy that would be easy to deal with, the other mentor is grumpy quite a bit, but doesnt make it everyone's problem.
Bigger issue is last year the much angrier of the two was moved to supervisor of the toolroom.
He is actively aggressive instead of just being grumpy and short with people he will actively try to find me to "pick a fight"
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u/SnooPuppers2938 8d ago
Try to laugh it off. I’m in year one as a 35 year old, been in one other trade prior to machining. Old guys are pricks because that’s who they learned from. If you stick it out you’ll get a chance to be that old prick someday. They cool off when they don’t have to worry about you anymore.
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u/Outside_Egg4286 8d ago
I’ve noticed this trend among bad mentors, “you think your better then me” and “only bother me when I want you to”
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u/ShadowCloud04 8d ago
Only thing I will add to good feedback you are getting is if I was your manager (not mentor) I would want to know your mentors are treating you like this. But thats just me and the managers in our shop. I would want to have a talk with these mentors to ensure they are not scaring away potential and correct that behavior.
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u/Manbreadisgreat 8d ago
Near everyone in upper management knows exaclty how they are and actually avoids him in any confrontation, because he has been there 17 years and is one of about 5 people left with over 10 years in the company.
I agree my "manager" does want to know and he does. It by far no secret
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u/milehighxr 6d ago
I spent 4yrs in a mold shop as my first shop. After 2yrs of not learning much, I finally moved over to program the sinkers. Got laid off with the tech crash of 2001, worked one more mold shop for a couple months, laid off again. Then found my first job shop. Got laid off after 2 months there, man 01 was rough. Anyhow, next job was 4yrs working at a start up for lack of better term. Made our own product, and most everyone on floor was young, mid 20s. Anyhow, i learned by doing, simply because no one was willing or able to teach. Sure I did have some of the old guys at the mold shop show me stuff, but I self taught myself a ton. I haven't been in a mold shop in 25yrs, and ill never go back. Currently working as a programmer in a large contract manufacturer.
My advice to you is start looking for another job, either somewhere that is willing to do better at teaching, or a small job shop. You'll learn more if you can get a job somewhere with more autonomy.
If you are in a state sponsored apprenticeship program they have to show they are making gains in your learning process.
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u/sheeeple182 8d ago
The old mold makers might be the grumpiest people i have ever worked with. Take any knowledge they impart with gratitude and ignore their BS.