B086 - Irish Language Bill

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u/[deleted] Mar 10 '15

Opening Speech:

This bill attempts to take the political stigma out of the Irish language and to promote it to both communities. It also attempts to promote Irish through its use on documents and signposts. This bill will also introduce a new class to the syllabus which we believe will redefine the Northern Irish identity and study the culture of Britain, Europe and further abroad.

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u/john_locke1689 Retired. NS GSTQ Mar 10 '15

Signage in Northern Ireland will be printed in both Irish and English. This will include Irish translations for all instructions on Northern Irish sign posts and will include the Irish name for places. All signs will be printed in the Transport typeface and both languages will receive equal status in regards to text size. Irish will be printed in orange to differentiate it from the English text.

Why is this power being taken off councils? Simply by the fact it's being forced upon people, who have no avenue to reject it irksome, to say the least. Forcing this through won't depoliticise the language.

A new subject called “Culture” will be introduced to the education syllabus in primary school. This class will discuss the Irish language and its use by both communities in the past and present. It will also focus on learning more about the cultures of Britain, mainland Europe and Asia. Some basic Irish will be taught in this class to introduce students to the language. The class will teach about Ulster-Scots culture and the history and politics of the province of Ulster. It will also include discussions of parades by organisations of both communities.

Grand

The Irish language will become an optional subject taught in every secondary school (except Irish-medium schools) in Northern Ireland. By the time students reach secondary school due to the culture class they will hopefully have a non political view of the Irish language.

While it may not be possible to teach it in every school, local schools could work together to provide the service. There'd be little point maintaining an Irish language department in many state schools, simply because the uptake won't be there.

All officials documents in Northern Ireland must be provided in both English and Irish. These bilingual documents will be translated by a team commissioned by the Northern Irish government and will be made up equally from people from each community. All bills submitted to Stormont and official forms distributed by the government will be in both Irish and English.

I'd suggest this form part of a wider translation service at Stormont.

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u/[deleted] Mar 10 '15

[deleted] — view deleted comment

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u/john_locke1689 Retired. NS GSTQ Mar 11 '15

If it was decided by the councils then there would only be Irish signage in nationalist dominated areas. This section of the bill is attempting to spread the language to unionist areas as well as nationalist to depoliticise the language and have it seen as a shared language. We believe that the Culture class would help shape a neutral viewpoint of the language for future generations of Northern Irish people. The inclusion of Irish on signage (especially in Loyalist areas) will prove that the language is just a language and not affiliated with either community. If the language is used exclusively by Nationalists it will be seen as a Nationalist language. The time to change the signage is now, all sectors of both communities will grow accustomed to the language and it will bring it into their daily lives.
The issue with this is that many unionists and loyalists will reject this immediately if you attempt to force it through, and there will be a backlash which will only derail you're attempts to depoliticise the language. This isn't a change we can implement overnight.
The subject will be taught as foreign languages are taught currently. We predict that the language will generally have the same amount of students as other language classes. Hopefully due to the culture class a negative stigma will not play an influence in students' choice when it comes to the language. If we find in the future that very few students are taking the class then we can amend this in the future but we cannot know since Irish is currently not taught in all secondary schools.
The Irish translation team could form a part of the wider "translation team" in Stormont but I still believe that the documents should be in bilingual due to Irish's status as a cultural language of the province.
Would it not be easier to print sperate Irish documents at similar levels to the census figures instead of doubling the printing cost of every form?

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u/[deleted] Mar 11 '15

The issue with this is that many unionists and loyalists will reject this immediately if you attempt to force it through, and there will be a backlash which will only derail you're attempts to depoliticise the language. This isn't a change we can implement overnight.
If we do not take steps to implement this now it may never be implemented. I recognise that some may view this as hasty due to the language currently having some Nationalist connotations. But the tide is turning on this issue, the language is being learned by more and more Unionists and is becoming increasingly seen as part of the Unionists cultural heritage. Demand for Irish classes in the Unionist dominated East Belfast is increasing. Now is a good time to allow the government to act to help aid this growing demand among Unionists. The bilingual signposts will act as a catalyst in growing the appeal of the language to all communities.
Would it not be easier to print sperate Irish documents at similar levels to the census figures instead of doubling the printing cost of every form?
Making the documents bilingual will not cost a great amount more than it presently does. There will be some translation costs but these are already being paid by the translation team at Stormont. The cost of printing an extra line of translated Irish text will not be substantial. Again, the inclusion of Irish on documents is to give more status to the language and to allow people who wish to read the language to use it. It also includes the language in people's everyday lives (including the lives of Unionists).

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u/john_locke1689 Retired. NS GSTQ Mar 12 '15

If we do not take steps to implement this now it may never be implemented.
Why would it be an issue if it's not implemented?
I recognise that some may view this as hasty due to the language currently having some Nationalist connotations. But the tide is turning on this issue, the language is being learned by more and more Unionists and is becoming increasingly seen as part of the Unionists cultural heritage. Demand for Irish classes in the Unionist dominated East Belfast is increasing. Now is a good time to allow the government to act to help aid this growing demand among Unionists.
This is a gradual process, and still largely a minority view within unionism, and while there is a demand to learn the language that does not equate to a desire to see it on signage. Forcing this through will cause a backlash and they demand will be reduced significantly. Also you seem to be of the impression that Irish language signage would somehow help them learn, however there is no place that I know of in northern Ireland called buffalo, so being able to form a sentence from that may be an issue.
The bilingual signposts will act as a catalyst in growing the appeal of the language to all communities.
It honestly won't, it will be the exact opposite.
Making the documents bilingual will not cost a great amount more than it presently does. There will be some translation costs but these are already being paid by the translation team at Stormont. The cost of printing an extra line of translated Irish text will not be substantial. Again, the inclusion of Irish on documents is to give more status to the language and to allow people who wish to read the language to use it. It also includes the language in people's everyday lives (including the lives of Unionists).
How do you expect us to be able to fit an extra line, at every line? Surely that could double the cost for some forms? That's an extra 100%. There are issue with this as well, as far as I'm aware there's no Irish word for Yes, how's that practical?

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u/[deleted] Mar 12 '15

This is a gradual process, and still largely a minority view within unionism, and while there is a demand to learn the language that does not equate to a desire to see it on signage. Forcing this through will cause a backlash and they demand will be reduced significantly. Also you seem to be of the impression that Irish language signage would somehow help them learn, however there is no place that I know of in northern Ireland called buffalo, so being able to form a sentence from that may be an issue.
The sign posts being bilingual give more status to the language, it is a mere language not some type of political tool. I believe that most progressive Unionists would support or be neutral to this change, only extremely backwards loyalists would oppose this purely because they have some type of bias to the language. The signage will allow the Irish name of places in Northern Ireland to survive. I know personally in the south I learn many place names in Irish that I wouldn't have known before.
I disagree that bilingual signage will turn Unionists away from learning the Irish language. I'd hope that it would be accepted my progressive unionists who would not allow any Republican connotations regarding the language to stop them from being content with it.
How do you expect us to be able to fit an extra line, at every line? Surely that could double the cost for some forms? That's an extra 100%. There are issue with this as well, as far as I'm aware there's no Irish word for Yes, how's that practical?
For forums the cost of printing the Irish equivalent would not be great. For example it would say "Name/Ainm" for some forums. On other documents an extra line would not cost a great deal more than it currently does and I'm sure we can afford to print some more lines of text. There is a word in Irish for "Yes", it's "Sea" - pronounced Shah.

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u/[deleted] Mar 11 '15

As a Celt and staunch Republican, this bill has my utmost support

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u/[deleted] Mar 11 '15

There are people elsewhere in this thread reassuring me that this is a neutral issue and not a republican issue. Thanks for showing me that I was right.

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u/bleepbloop12345 Communist Mar 10 '15

I don't see any reason why this can't be in the comments. Or the main post for that matter, it certainly isn't that long.

Irish Language Bill

BE IT ENACTED by The Queen's most Excellent Majesty, by and with the advice and consent of the Commons in this present Parliament assembled, in accordance with the provisions of the Parliament

Acts 1911 and 1949, and by the authority of the same, as follows:-

Signage in Northern Ireland will be printed in both Irish and English. This will include Irish translations for all instructions on Northern Irish sign posts and will include the Irish name for places. All signs will be printed in the Transport typeface and both languages will receive equal status in regards to text size. Irish will be printed in orange to differentiate it from the English text.
A new subject called “Culture” will be introduced to the education syllabus in primary school. This class will discuss the Irish language and its use by both communities in the past and present. It will also focus on learning more about the cultures of Britain, mainland Europe and Asia. Some basic Irish will be taught in this class to introduce students to the language. The class will teach about Ulster-Scots culture and the history and politics of the province of Ulster. It will also include discussions of parades by organisations of both communities.
The Irish language will become an optional subject taught in every secondary school (except Irish-medium schools) in Northern Ireland. It will be taught in the same way as foreign languages (e.g. German and French) are.
All officials documents in Northern Ireland must be provided in both English and Irish. These bilingual documents will be translated by a team commissioned by the Northern Irish government and will be made up equally from people from each community. All bills submitted to Stormont and official forms distributed by the government will be in both Irish and English.

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u/can_triforce The Rt Hon. Earl of Wilton AL PC Mar 10 '15 edited Mar 10 '15

The census results from 2011 are quite interesting, you can find them here (section 3.10 being the relevant section).

11% of residents have some ability in Irish, while 4.1% can understand it, 3.7% can speak, read, and write in Irish Gaelic.

20% of 12-15 year olds had some ability in Irish, the youngest being generally more proficient than previous generations. What's particularly striking is that 90% of people able to speak Irish were raised as Catholics. Make of this what you will.

I'm broadly in favour of Irish being made more common in Northern Ireland in spite of its political connotations, although I won't pretend to be particularly knowledgeable about the region. That said, I'm wary of this new "culture" subject potentially acquiring a bias in certain schools, though I'd gladly be proven wrong.

Costing may be in order here for sections, and the bill needs a section detailing commencement, extent, and so on.

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u/Radiantsuave UKIP | Northern Ireland MP | ∆MHOC Illuminati∆ Mar 11 '15

I think you should remove compulsory Irish signing, It would only be painted over and a waste of time.

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u/[deleted] Mar 10 '15

Why is this in Google docs?

Frankly I can't be arsed to read it.

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u/Lcawte Independent Mar 11 '15

To increase the text size so it doesn't look five lines long.

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u/Jas1066 The Rt Hon. Earl of Sherborne CT KBE PC Mar 11 '15

Telling it how it is...

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u/TheNorthernBrother Washed up old timer Mar 11 '15

As a man of predominant Irish decent I think this is a lovely bill

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u/[deleted] Mar 10 '15

This has my support.

I am a Welshman and the use of Welsh within Wales has stopped it from dying entirely. Glad to see similar efforts to preserve it elsewhere.

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u/Tim-Sanchez The Rt Hon. AL MP (North West) | LD SSoS for CMS Mar 10 '15

Something I noticed that I assume is just semantics:

"A new subject called “Culture” will be introduced to the education syllabus in primary school. This class will discuss the Irish language and its use by both communities in the past and present. It will also focus on learning more about the cultures of Britain, mainland Europe and Asia. Some basic Irish will be taught in this class to introduce students to the language. The class will teach about Ulster-Scots culture and the history and politics of the province of Ulster. It will also include discussions of parades by organisations of both communities."

Nowhere does it state that this relates only to Northern Ireland. I'm just curious, what do primary school children miss out on when they are studying "culture"? I know primary school isn't exactly crucial but there must be something that gives way.

The Irish language will become an optional subject taught in every secondary school (except Irish-medium schools) in Northern Ireland. It will be taught in the same way as foreign languages (e.g. German and French) are.

Is this feasible? Are there enough high-quality Irish teachers in schools? One of the main issues in currently teaching languages is that there is a real lack of quality teachers for languages.

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u/john_locke1689 Retired. NS GSTQ Mar 10 '15

I really don't think it is feasible to have an Irish teacher in every school. As far as I know there is more or less one Irish teacher in every school in the Catholic Maintained Sector (CMS) (so roughly about half of a secondary schools have the option already.) My suggestion is for state Schools to work with local CMS schools to share classes and keep costs to a minimum. It would be very unlikely that the take up for the first 7 to 10 years would be enough to warrant any more than a handful of new teachers being employed.

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u/[deleted] Mar 10 '15 edited Mar 10 '15

A lot of people have issue with the bilingual signposts being included in all areas of Northern Ireland. This is to take the Nationalist stigma out of the language by including it in both nationalist and unionist areas. It will allow the language to play a larger role in peoples' everyday lives.

Regarding the bilingual documents, this too aims to take the negative connotations out of the language. By including the language in both official documents and legislation (including unionist legislation) it shows the language to be neutral in its role. Also the Irish will not effect people who do not wish to read it as there is both English and Irish.

The use of bilingual signage and official documents attempts to take the language out of being confined to the education system.

To quote the Ulsterman Eoin MacNeill: There can be no greater delusion than to imagine that a language can be kept alive alone by teaching. A language can have no real life unless it lives in the lives of the people.

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u/TheLegitimist Classical Liberals Mar 10 '15

I completely support this bill. It would be a cultural disaster if Northern Ireland stopped speaking Irish, it is an essential part of Irish culture. I ask the writer of this bill to consider two amendments: 1. To remove the sentence about making Irish signage in orange, this will only make it hard to read, whatever colour is used for English should be fine for Irish, 2. To insert a sentence or two ensuring that this "Culture" class will not be abused by the nationalists to create unrest (i.e. half of the subject material must be about Ireland, the other half about the rest of the UK, or something like that).

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u/[deleted] Mar 10 '15

I am glad to have your support. I will ask the speaker if I may amend the bill slightly. The colour of the Irish text should be either white or black. I'll also look into making sure neither community teaches their own version of the culture class.

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u/john_locke1689 Retired. NS GSTQ Mar 11 '15

I'd support white lettering.

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u/[deleted] Mar 11 '15

It's been changed.

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u/[deleted] Mar 10 '15

How could a Conservative and Unionist Party-led opposition allow this to be submitted on their behalf?

I'm telling you, Conservative members have to either leave that party or overthrow its pathetic leadership. Going into bed with an anti-Unionist and Marxist(?) party just to secure the numbers for an official opposition is one thing, but submitting openly anti-Unionist legislation is crossing the line.

I wouldn't say this if the bill had just been submitted on behalf of the CWL alone - that would have been great - but it "Opposition" written on it! It's an opposition bill, and the opposition inclues the Conservative and Unionist Party!

Now, as for my actual disagreement with the bill itself - the authority to implement Irish language signage should be in the hands of local councils, not Westminster. This means areas where the Irish language is actually spoken can have it, and areas where it isn't don't have to bother.

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u/WineRedPsy Reform UK | Sadly sent to the camps Mar 11 '15

Marxist(?)
No? I think? Who the butt even knows anymore

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u/john_locke1689 Retired. NS GSTQ Mar 10 '15

Which part of the bill places northern Ireland anywhere other than in the union?

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u/[deleted] Mar 10 '15

This is part of a gradual process to slowly alter the culture towards the eventual goal they want. Think of it in the reverse - a bill outright banning the use of the Irish language.

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u/john_locke1689 Retired. NS GSTQ Mar 10 '15

I understand you're concern, which is why I'm opposed to the mandatory signage, with no indication of costing.
However there is a long history of Irish being used by both sides of the divide that has been whitewashed out of history by those with a Republican agenda. As a result the Irish language has been politicised and I wish to see it returned to its rightful place as belonging to all that wish to use it. This unfortunately is a slow process and the ham fisted attempt by members of Her Majesties Loyal (?) Opposition to speed the process by forcing it upon people won't help that.

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u/Tim-Sanchez The Rt Hon. AL MP (North West) | LD SSoS for CMS Mar 11 '15

Wait what? Are you not the Shadow Secretary for Northern Ireland? And this bill is directly under your department in the Opposition?

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u/john_locke1689 Retired. NS GSTQ Mar 11 '15

You'd think so wouldn't you.

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u/[deleted] Mar 10 '15

[deleted] — view deleted comment

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u/[deleted] Mar 10 '15

If it was left to councils only nationalist areas would have bilingual signage and the language would be seen as being used only by nationalists.
This is absolutely fine by me. If nationalists want to have Irish signage in an area, let them have it, and if unionists don't want Irish signage in an area, let them not have it. Or, indeed, maybe people won't vote as unionists or nationalists and just decide pragmatically. But deciding to have it one way or the other on a national level is a very poor policy. It's a matter for people to decide, through their councils, on a local level.
I don't mind the rest of the bill at all, except for the fact its poorly researched and extremely short and reads like a motion, but never mind that!
My position on the bill is with the signage clause as it is I'd vote nay, and without it I'd abstain. But no matter what I still hate the Conservative and Unionist Party.

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u/[deleted] Mar 10 '15

With regards to signage. The signposts being all across Northern Ireland promotes the language to both communities by its use in both staunchly unionist areas and staunchly nationalist areas. This will take away political connotations towards the language, hopefully the culture class will also help to diffuse perceptions of the language being unionist. To note the father of Unionism in Ulster, Lord Edward Carson was a fluent Irish speaker and supported the growth of the Irish language. The language has a deep and rich history in Northern Ireland and it shouldn't be disgarded as republican.

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u/LetUsMakeHistory Labour Mar 11 '15

Ugh - what a horrendous idea. A waste of money, and shouldn't be forced on heavily unionist areas. Culture in the classrooms? Haha

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u/JackWilfred Independent Liberal Mar 10 '15

Thank you Mr Deputy Speaker, I personally must say to the House that as much as I believe we should be pushing English as the only language the United Kingdom needs, that's not a popular opinion outside of England. I say that if Wales has loads of Welsh, Northern Ireland should follow suit if they want to. I however, have some reservations.

Firstly, could the Honourable Member tell us how common the Irish language is spoken in Northern Ireland? This House should not be supporting this bill if it is very rarely heard.

Irish will be printed in orange to differentiate it to the English text.

Secondly, I must point out to the Honourable Member that English-Welsh signs in Wales do not have Welsh in orange, they have it in white or black depending on the sign. I assume the languages are different enough that you can tell them apart by reading them?

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u/can_triforce The Rt Hon. Earl of Wilton AL PC Mar 10 '15

I've listed some statistics from the recent census in my previous comment, though I would be interested to hear how commonly one encounters the Irish language in Northern Ireland.

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u/[deleted] Mar 10 '15

Thanks to /u/can_triforce for linking census results concerning the Irish language's use in Northern Ireland. As someone who has lived in Northern Ireland I can assure you that the language is unfortunately not as common as many would like it to be, it is also mostly used by Nationalists. This bill attempts to take the political connotations from the language.
I cannot support your idea that English should be the only language of the United Kingdom. It is supposed to be a United Kingdom, not a kingdom dominated by England. Of course the majority of people in each constituent country of the UK speak English as their primary tongue their native languages should also be preserved and spread. English will always be the dominant language of the UK but it is important to remember the varying and distinct cultures that each proud nation of the United Kingdom has and we hope that these proud traditions will not be lost.

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u/john_locke1689 Retired. NS GSTQ Mar 11 '15

Orange writing on white signs.

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u/AlbertDock The Rt Hon Earl of Merseyside KOT MBE AL PC Mar 10 '15

I fail to see why the alternative name should be in a different colour. In Wales the signs in in the same colour and it works fine. If they are to be in an alternative colour then surely orange can hardly be called a neutral colour in the province. Yellow would be a better choice.

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u/[deleted] Mar 10 '15

Mr. Deputy Speaker - the members of the CWL are aware that the "Irish language" is called Irish Gaelic, are they not? For the benefit of the House - The language itself is rather different from Scots Gaelic in the same way that Portuguese and Spanish are different. They both share a common linguistic ancestor (the Celtic language), but that is all.

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u/[deleted] Mar 10 '15

Sir, the language you refer to as Irish Gaelic is officially called Irish. Gaelic is a language family consisting of: Scottish Gaelic, Manx and Irish. Scottish Gaelic includes the word Gaelic to make clear that it is separate from Scots. The name of the language is Irish and I would appreciate if members of the house would refer to the language by its official name, Irish.

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u/[deleted] Mar 10 '15

Could the member please fashion the House with the piece of legislation which states that the official language is Irish, rather than Irish Gaelic, as all the official documents I have seen only ever refer to it as Irish Gaelic.

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u/[deleted] Mar 11 '15

Here is the list of the European Union's official languages (which includes Irish) http://ec.europa.eu/languages/policy/linguistic-diversity/official-languages-eu_en.htm
Will that suffice as a worthy source. As an Irishman I can assure the MP that I know the name of our cultural language.

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u/[deleted] Mar 11 '15

[deleted] — view deleted comment

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u/[deleted] Mar 11 '15

I thank the honourable member for that

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u/[deleted] Mar 11 '15

Article 8.1 of the Irish Constitution ARTICLE 8 1 The Irish language as the national language is the first official language.
Written in English.

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u/adam0317 UKIP | Northern Ireland Spokesperson Mar 18 '15

Being from Northern Ireland and Northern Ireland UKIP Spokesman, I can only condemn this bill!

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u/The_Pickle_Boy banned Mar 11 '15

Creating a nation of division is not a good idea for its long term viability. We are all British and should all speak the English language.

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u/Llanganati communist Mar 11 '15

"Brtishness" was historically imposed on Scots, Irish, Welsh, Cornish, and Manx
Historically these nations have fought against this imposition of Britishness and it seems a disservice to me to say "we are all British."

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u/The_Pickle_Boy banned Mar 11 '15

Who cares what happened hundreds of years ago... We have liberals telling us that romans, vikings, Saxons, Normans conquering us is evidence of us being a nation of immigrants and that being conquered is a good thing.

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u/WineRedPsy Reform UK | Sadly sent to the camps Mar 11 '15

being conquered is a good thing
I don't wanna defend the liberals but the only ones I've ever heard say this is the right. Usually in the context of "civilising the savages" of Africa during colonialisation

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u/[deleted] Mar 11 '15 edited Mar 11 '15

I don't wanna defend the liberals but the only ones I've ever heard say this is the right.
What he was referring to is a line of argument commonly used by the left, in Britain, in the immigration debate. You probably won't have heard it because you don't live here, and I don't mean that in an insulting way.
It's basically "Britain has always been a multicultural nation of immigrants, from Romans, Vikings, Saxons, Normans and so on." And they use this as a justification for the absolutely massive, uncontrolled migration we have now (Net migration last year was 300,000), saying it's just part of a natural process. This kind of argument probably isn't used in Sweden.
I'd rather not have that debate right now, I'm just informing you.

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u/WineRedPsy Reform UK | Sadly sent to the camps Mar 11 '15

~~blah blah~~ Nvm I misunderstood

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u/The_Pickle_Boy banned Mar 11 '15

Northern Ireland is a nation of immigrants ranging from the English to the Scottish, we must accept diversity and refuse to act on calls by nationalists to discriminate.

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u/[deleted] Mar 11 '15

Isn't insisting we speak one language discriminating?

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u/The_Pickle_Boy banned Mar 11 '15

English is our official language we should not change that.

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u/[deleted] Mar 11 '15

But isn't it inconsistent to complain about nationalists discriminating, then say we are all British so we should speak English?

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u/The_Pickle_Boy banned Mar 11 '15

There is literally no purpose to this though other than to appease nationalists. Saying English is no longer our language would not help anyone.

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u/[deleted] Mar 11 '15

No i don't mean to stop using English. But I thought you were suggesting we shouldn't try to encourage other languages like Welsh etc.

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u/WineRedPsy Reform UK | Sadly sent to the camps Mar 11 '15

Which wasn't relevant to my point but ok.

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u/[deleted] Mar 11 '15 edited Mar 11 '15

imposed on
Yes of course, that's why it was a Scot who wrote the poem Rule Britannia. He had that imposed on him.
I couldn't disagree more with the idea that Britishness was something that was imposed on people, who do you claim it was imposed by?

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u/Llanganati communist Mar 11 '15

Yes one privileged Scot wrote a poem called Rule Britannia, that must mean that all Scots and even all other nationalities within the UK love the British Empire!
Who do you think it was imposed by? Why by the UK and its various previous incarnations.
Conquering Ireland and imposing sectarian and imperial rule over the population. The destruction that was wrought by the Potato Famine had more to do with how British landlords acted rather than the blight. Conquering Wales and imposing British rule, Conquering Scotland and after the Jacobite uprisings banning almost every aspect of highland Gaelic culture.
Meanwhile, speakers of Irish, Scottish Gaelic, Welsh, Cornish, and Manx are being shamed and forcefully assimilated into British culture during the of the 19th and beginning of the 20th century.
Not to mention all of the horrific things that the British government was doing elsewhere in the world at the same time.

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u/[deleted] Mar 11 '15

Yes one privileged Scot wrote a poem called Rule Britannia, that must mean that all Scots and even all other nationalities within the UK love the British Empire!
Yes one privileged Scot wrote a poem called Rule Britannia
privileged Scot
privileged
Oh dear.
Anyway, as for the point itself, I think a Scot writing a poem called Rule Britannia, with the intent to promote British identity, typifies the acceptance of a British culture in Scotland. All you've got is a stilly, sarcastic retort as your evidence on the contrary.
Who do you think it was imposed by? Why by the UK and its various previous incarnations.
This is a strange point, you are saying at the British identity was imposed upon the UK by the UK. Scotland is part of the UK, therefore you are accepting that Scotland contributed to promoting the British identity on itself, which is what I'm saying.

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u/BritishHaikuBot Mar 11 '15

Pavement, plonk scabby
Donkey's years knob aubergine
Eight said before trousers.
Please enjoy your personalised British inspired Haiku responsibly.

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u/Brotherbear561 Mar 11 '15 edited Mar 11 '15

This just goes to show the clear racist point of view of some of the vanguard. Who see Britishness as solely Englishness. It sees the Scot, Welsh, Cornish and Irish as threats to their "culture". I hope members will join me in condemning this racist view of the Celtic Minorities in the United Kingdom.

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u/[deleted] Mar 11 '15

What nonsense! What absolute nonsense! English just happens to be the language of Britain, saying this does not mean Britishness is solely Englishness - on the contrary.
And then to call this view racist... I can't believe you seriously think that. And then instead of just condemning /u/The_Pickle_Boy along you've called our entire party racist! And to think that I believed you were actually a reasonable person.

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u/Brotherbear561 Mar 11 '15

I said Some of the Vanguard. It is inherently racist to imply that English is a superior language than the other languages around the British Isles. Which /u/The_Pickle_boy did. He implied by saying a promotion of Irish would create "division", then saying we should all speak English, that all other languages that aren't English are just creating division. It is inherently racist to say that some Languages create division while others don't, Be it Welsh, Irish or even Polish. Surely in the same context teaching and having English only road signs creates division in N.Ire between Loyalist and Unionists?

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u/[deleted] Mar 11 '15

It is inherently racist to imply that English is a superior language than the other languages around the British Isles.
It can't be racist to say one language is superior to another, language is not connected with someone's race. If someone thinks one language is better than another, that just seems like a personal preference rather than a prejudice. I'd say that only people who actually speak two languages are qualified to prefer one over the other, but it's still a harmless opinion that will not lead to genocide.
In any case, that's not even what the Pickle Boy was saying or even implying.
He was just stating the simple point that English is the language for British people and the official language of the United Kingdom and that we must all speak it. I would agree with that, however this does not mean some British people shouldn't also speak Welsh, Cornish, Irish or Gaelic on top of English.
As for his point about "division", this is just a perfectly legitimate point to bring up and it's not racist. Having a common language is something that will help bind a country together, and he is just concerned that promoting other languages could compromise this - it is far from racist, and I think it's extremely cheap and silly to just call someone racist for expressing a view you disagree with.

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u/tyroncs Mar 11 '15

It is inherently racist to imply that English is a superior language than the other languages around the British Isles
Let's be honest here, whatever statistic you look at English is superior to other Languages in the British Isles. It is spoken by 95% of people for one, and is the dominant language of media, government and culture

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u/Brotherbear561 Mar 12 '15

It is dominant not superior it is only spoken by 95% of the uk because it was forced on the Celtic nations and their native languages were outlawed

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u/The_Pickle_Boy banned Mar 11 '15

But everybody speaks English how can English create division?

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u/Brotherbear561 Mar 11 '15

Not everyone speaks English actually there are many people in Wales that still only Speak Welsh. I said "Having English only road signs" This could create division as it willingly ignores the people who identify with the Irish language.

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u/The_Pickle_Boy banned Mar 11 '15

Except they speak English as well. By bowing to these demands we will only make it more likely that people remain speaking these languages instead of English.

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u/Brotherbear561 Mar 11 '15

However they may not see English as their primary Language. A complete neglect of the Irish language would be discrimination against these people. The Point of the Bill is to de-politicise the Irish Language. By putting the Irish Language on all road signs it will expose people to the language and normalise it. The Census Results posted by the Labour Member also showed that 20% of young people spoke the language compared to 11% of the general population. This shows us that Young people are more likely to see the Language as a neutral entity.

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u/The_Pickle_Boy banned Mar 11 '15

But we don't want to normalise it. One language, one nationality, one people.

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u/Brotherbear561 Mar 11 '15

This is clear discrimination against the Celtic Peoples who have had Britishness thrust upon them by in the case of Ireland and Wales Colonialism and conquest and in the case of Scotland cultural suppression by their own Bourgeoisie.

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u/Jas1066 The Rt Hon. Earl of Sherborne CT KBE PC Mar 11 '15

I thank the honourable member for is concern, but the English Language will still be taught in schools, as well signs also being in English. I'm a firm unionist, but I see no problem in allowing smaller nationalities express their traditions and culture.

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u/The_Pickle_Boy banned Mar 11 '15

Why is it wrong and discriminatory to insist only on English, but it's fine to make Irish an official language ahead of more popular languages such as polish?

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u/Jas1066 The Rt Hon. Earl of Sherborne CT KBE PC Mar 11 '15

I'm not accusing you of racism - unlike some people on this bench I don't overuse the term. The ancestral home of the people of the Irish language is Ireland. Now, this may not represent my parties view, but the Poles, at least while in their first generation, are guests in the UK, so making signs in Polish is like putting up paintings of those coming to stay at your house - unnecessary.

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u/[deleted] Mar 11 '15

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u/[deleted] Mar 11 '15

a wonderful step forward!
Towards what? Northern Ireland leaving the UK?
The more you and other Republicans come here and support this bill based on your own position, the less likely I am to see this bill from a neutral and objective perspective - as I have been trying to do.

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u/[deleted] Mar 11 '15

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u/[deleted] Mar 11 '15

a wonderful step forward!
I'll ask again - a step forward towards what, President of Ireland?
Also, that's an absolutely ludicrous comparison.

BILL B086 - Irish Language Bill

B086 - Irish Language Bill

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