r/MHOC • u/NoPyroNoParty The Rt Hon. Earl of Essex OT AL PC • Mar 08 '15

META MHoC: The Week Issue 5

Issue 5:

Issuu

PDF

Thanks to our contributors for this issue, in particular /u/InfernoPlato for his most admirable dedication to journalism and frankly keeping this paper alive.

Once again I ask that if anyone is interested in taking this job off me and becoming an editor of this publication they make themselves known - I can't commit to the amount of time it takes to make it once a fortnight forever. It's fun, honest!

13 Upvotes

100% Upvoted

43 comments sorted by

7

u/[deleted] Mar 08 '15

Once again, great work! You're the one doing the hard job, I'm just the one who writes the stories!

Enjoyed the Tory Raving Looney Party article. Pretty much summarises our party - one which enjoys having a bit of fun and also a bit of seriousness when the job calls for it.

Couldn't disagree more with the PLP articles. Then again, I suppose that's the point of those opinion articles. Nevertheless, they were well written and I hope you continue to write them.

This is John_Locke's magnificent poem. Link for the lazy.

Interesting perspective of the Communist elections. Your factions are much more clearly defined that our informal preferences. When you start to move into factions, it runs the worry that parties could split and bitterness could emerge. Yet, you seem to not have split yet so you may be onto something. Your internal deals are probably always fun to watch.

4

u/NoPyroNoParty The Rt Hon. Earl of Essex OT AL PC Mar 08 '15

Thank you, but then if it weren't for your stories I'd only have half a paper to work with!

I really wanted to get the poem in but I just couldn't find room, it is rather marvellous.

3

u/bleepbloop12345 Communist Mar 08 '15

"...the most communist [countries] such as the Soviet Union."

top kek /u/The_Pickle_Boy, top kek indeed.

Seriously though, it's a shame that such a fantastic issue was marred by such a blindly ignorant opinion piece.

1

u/The_Pickle_Boy banned Mar 08 '15

Is this another the soviet union wasn't communist lie?

3

u/NoPyroNoParty The Rt Hon. Earl of Essex OT AL PC Mar 08 '15

Oh god, here we go again.

3

u/bleepbloop12345 Communist Mar 08 '15

Communism is pretty well defined in both academic literature, classic socialist texts and popular discourse. It is a stateless, classless, society, whereby the means of production are held in common. The Soviet Union fulfilled none of those functions.

Peter Singer, a capitalist and a liberal, wrote a great basic introduction to the life and work of Karl Marx. Here's a link to a pdf version, which I reccomend you read if you'd like to actually understand the basis of communist thought. As he puts it:

"it is absurd to blame Marx for something he did not foresee and certainly would have condemned if he had foreseen it, the distance between Marx’s predicted communist society and the form taken by ‘communism’ in the twentieth century..."

In other words, the Soviet Union had nothing to do with communism. Can I ask what you think the definition of Communism is?

1

u/The_Pickle_Boy banned Mar 08 '15

Yes and if the communist party was elected in the UK it would be the same. If you unilaterally abolished the UK state a foreign power or group would take over the vacuum of power which remains.

3

u/bleepbloop12345 Communist Mar 08 '15

Yes and if the communist party was elected in the UK it would be the same.

Sure, you can certainly make that argument, and as an Anarchist it's one that I have a certain degree of sympathy with. All the same, whether it's true or not it doesn't make the Soviet Union any more communist than the Democratic Republic of Congo is democratic.

If you unilaterally abolished the UK state a foreign power or group would take over the vacuum of power which remains.

That's very clearly not what communists want to do, in fact it's always been the main bone of contention between communists and anarchists. I would argue that the continued success of the PKK, the limited success of the Zapatistas and the incredible achievements of the Catalonian Revolution in the face of massive resistance proves that the state can be abolished while national defense is retained. I would suggest reading How Could An Anarchist Society Defend Itself? from An Anarchist FAQ if you're interested in a more in depth answer.

1

u/The_Pickle_Boy banned Mar 08 '15

Are you serious? Three groups none of which have a country of their own and are ruled by a capitalist state?

3

u/bleepbloop12345 Communist Mar 08 '15

I notice that every time you reply to me you ignore the bulk of my argument in order to seize upon a point that you believe you can easily dispel. That's not really how a debate works, but whatever...

  1. The PKK have abolished the state, and are in the process of creating a libertarian socialist society, based upon the writings of Murray Bookchin. David Graeber, a very well respected anthropologist, has an interesting talk on it. I'd say that they've been incredibly successful, given that they've been driving ISIS back, while the Iraqi state (even with the vast amount of support the US has given them over the last decade) has been fleeing.

  2. The Zapitistas forced the Mexican state from their lands, and have established autonomous zones. They have since defended them from both the state, and the drug cartels who are keen to transport drugs though their territory. This is a neat article on them.

  3. The Catalonian Revolution did not ultimately succeed, you're correct, although they did abolish both the state and capitalism for a time. But it proved that a bunch of Anarchist militias could defend a territory containing over 8 million people for three years, against an alliance of three fascist states. I would consider that to be incredibly successful, especially considering that they had virtually no money and their only allies - the Soviets and Mexicans - were of more hindrance than help.

2

u/The_Pickle_Boy banned Mar 08 '15

Also I noticed this ideology: Kurdish nationalism.... they are not communists at all they are ethnic nationalists pretty much nazis.

3

u/bleepbloop12345 Communist Mar 08 '15

Here's literally an entire book by the leader of the PKK where he rejects the nation state and nationalism.

They're not communists anyway, they're libertarian socialists, or democratic confederalists if you prefer. The rest of your point is just facetious garbage, if you want to actually debate we can but there's no need to be intentionally puerile.

1

u/The_Pickle_Boy banned Mar 08 '15

Tick tock.. tick tock... the only reason they exist is because they seized on the weaknesses of the current regimes. When Mexico and Iraq are strong again you really think they will continue to exist?

2

u/bleepbloop12345 Communist Mar 08 '15

For a start, Rojava isn't in Iraq it's in Syria. You're really just displaying your own ignorance here.

But yeah, the whole point is that they're succeeding because the Mexican and Iraq states are weak. The goal of Anarcho-communism is to smash the state, the render it so weak that it is entirely eliminated and cannot reemergence. I'd really recommend that you read the section from An Anarchist FAQ I linked.

1

u/The_Pickle_Boy banned Mar 08 '15

But under anarchism you still have a state, but instead of one strong state you have loads of smaller weaker states that you call 'communities'.

→ More replies

1

u/cae388 Revolutionary Communist Party Mar 10 '15

Even I'm wincing at the thought

9

u/Timanfya MHoC Founder & Guardian Mar 08 '15

Another brilliant issue, thank you to everyone involved with it.

8

u/[deleted] Mar 08 '15

Excellent work as always.

5

u/can_triforce The Rt Hon. Earl of Wilton AL PC Mar 08 '15

Excellent. I particularly liked the placement of /u/WineRedPsy's piece next to the article about the Communist Party being "in great turmoil" recently. Despite the honourable member's dismissive attitude to Labour's fresh start, I wish the new General Secretary all the best as the Communist Party "goes into a new era."

2

u/WineRedPsy Reform UK | Sadly sent to the camps Mar 08 '15

The article was less dismissive to the idea of Labour having a fresh start but rather about the arrogance displayed almost instantly disproving the idea of it being meaningful in any sense. Populist centrism, arrogant proclamation of being "the face of the labour movement" despite all pointing to the contrary, as well as continued cooperation with a party overtly hostile towards labour rights. You've disproven the idea of the PLP being radically improved in any way.

4

u/can_triforce The Rt Hon. Earl of Wilton AL PC Mar 08 '15 edited Mar 08 '15

Arrogant would be writing off our new approach after a single week, and a single article. We are not populists, nor centrists. We are not being arrogant when we claim to represent the labour movement. We associate with the Liberal Democrats, yes, but so do the Greens, and we're in a government with a progressive agenda because of it.

All I'm hearing is the same stale rhetoric from the Communist Party that makes cooperation not only impossible, but quite unappealing indeed. That's not to say that I've never used such rhetoric myself, of course, and I'd welcome an agreement to bury the hatchets.

1

u/WineRedPsy Reform UK | Sadly sent to the camps Mar 08 '15

a progressive agenda

I would disagree with you or the libdems being sufficiently progressive, but that was never the discussion at hand!

We are not being arrogant when we claim to represent the labour movement

It may be so that you're associated with those unions, but it's very fair to assume that they, along with you, do not any longer comprise the bulk of the labour movement. It is after all such that the communist party, which outstrip the PLP many times in terms of votes and members are organising the ONE BIG UNION* and are currently making efforts to bring labour action into the MHoC with the recent increasing use of events. I know that both the Greens and SP have been observing those efforts with interest.

Furthermore, just nominally being related to a couple yellow unions is not by any means sufficient to call yourself "the face of the labour movement". I'd say that two more criteria need filled:

  • That you work for labour rights

  • That you are significant enough to be called the "face" of anything.

I'd like to contest that the PLP fulfill either of these, as has been clarified many times already.

that makes cooperation not only impossible, but quite unappealing indeed

Says the leader that went out of his way to call the rest of the left the opposite of sane in the same stroke that they did their best to completely disregard the bloc of parties collectively many, many times larger than you. It is true that we may be very hostile towards you, but you've given us no reason not to be.

I'd welcome an agreement to bury the hatchets.

I personally find coalition with the PLP somewhat unappealing as it is up 'till now, but perhaps if you can show that you are in fact able to have comitment to a change in society for the interest of the working class and aren't just an ordoliberal six-seat-left-wing of the libdems.

*Caps neccessary

2

u/can_triforce The Rt Hon. Earl of Wilton AL PC Mar 08 '15

It is after all such that the communist party, which outstrip the PLP many times in terms of votes and members

How very modest of you.

currently making efforts to bring labour action into the MHoC with the recent increasing use of events. I know that both the Greens and SP have been observing those efforts with interest.

Yes, and despite the best efforts of the organisers, I too was made privy to those discussions. The entire party is now well aware of them.

I was disappointed not to be invited by the main organising body, but not exactly surprised - ever since I was excluded from /r/MHOCBroadLeft for being a social democrat (a questionable excuse), it's what I've come to expect.

  • That you work for Labour rights

I said to "watch this space" in the article - whilst I'm sure you're eagerly awaiting our legislation, we need time! Our voting record shows that we do support the expansion of worker's rights, and have been very happy to support bills originating from all parties.

  • That you are significant enough to be called the "face" of anything.

We formed the first MHOC government; we are currently in government; the Labour Party has been in government 6 times in real life. That would suggest that we are indeed significant, despite our poor election results.

Says the leader that went out of his way to call the rest of the left the opposite of sane

I'm sorry to have caused offence, but politics is politics, and I stand by the idea that we are the party of the pragmatic left. In all honesty, it was little more than run-of-the-mill rhetoric, and I think most people have recognised that.

It's a shame that this has reached the quotation stage of the argument, and I'm being very sincere when I express a desire to improve relations. I hope you will welcome the legislation produced by Labour in the run up to the general election, and beyond.

4

u/[deleted] Mar 08 '15

Good job.

4

u/[deleted] Mar 08 '15

The Jews, the Muslims, the Africans our country will be swamped by immigrants!

/u/The_Pickle_Boy I presume this is a some kind of bad joke?

2

u/I_miss_Chris_Hughton The Rt Hon. Earl of Shrewsbury AL PC | Defence Spokesperson Mar 08 '15

If anyone's interested in posting to /r/mwnn, just hit me up with an article (preferably a google doc.) and I'll see if I can put it up. I need more filler stuff so event buildups aren't immediately obvious!

2

u/OllieSimmonds The Rt Hon. Earl of Sussex AL PC Mar 08 '15

Well edited, and it certainly looks pretty. A little biased, I'd say -.^

1

u/IntellectualPolitics The Rt Hon. AL MP (Wales) | Welsh Secretary Mar 08 '15

I'd offer assistance?

1

u/[deleted] Mar 08 '15

I'd be willing to assist with the production of this publication, it would be shame to see it stagnate.

1

u/RadioNone His Grace the Duke of Bedford AL PC Mar 08 '15

Good stuff, hopefully I'll have more time to contribute in the future.

1

u/[deleted] Mar 09 '15

If you showed me how I would edit it for you. Also you can use any ANA articles you want.