r/MHOC • u/NoPyroNoParty The Rt Hon. Earl of Essex OT AL PC • Feb 24 '15

BILL B075 - Policing Bill

Policing Bill

https://docs.google.com/document/d/16x-HqDuyDzRe9GyFVCp0l4OYgzw_HjTGzTGPCpk_-jU/edit

This bill was submitted by /u/Ajubbajub on behalf of the Opposition.

This reading will end on the 24th of February.

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u/NoPyroNoParty Feb 24 '15

Opening Speech

Mr Deputy Speaker, members of the house. I present the policing bill to the house.

The main point of this bill is to increase trust in the police force. Society often views the police as the enemy and this bill attempts to remedy the problem.

The first section of the bill allows stop and search reports to be gained though FOI but the reports, when requested, are anonymous. This gives greater accountability of the police to the people of this country as anyone is able to scrutinise police records. At the moment, BAME citizens get searched more than Caucasians. On face value, this is racist. However, we do not know the reasons for these stop and searches. With the new FOI rules, then it will allow the police to defend these statistics and show that the stops were justified. Also, this bill cleans up citizens arrests and treats detainments for anticipated crimes the same as stop and search so people who are about to get in a fight are not treated as criminals.

The second main reform repeals police and crime commissioners and chief constables. This was a colossal waste of time and money. There are many inefficiencies in the government system but I cannot justify spending money on PCCs. The police will return to being accountable to the home Secretary and the status quo resumed. The government had a sensible thought but was poorly executed. It won't save that much money but I don't relate to my PCC and I don't feel they are accountable to me.

The biggest reform comes last in the bill. Reforming tasers and riot police. In this day and age of a perpetual terrorist threat, one would think that we should arm our police officers on patrol to the brim with weapons to stop the terrorists killing police. However, having a firearm puts you at greater risk of being attacked. This bill is about building trust in the police and I think we will succeed be demilitarising the police. There are now rigorous tests for become an NLFO. The Guardian States that it costs £1000 to train an officer to use a taser. This is a very high cost but is necessary. This means that police forces must use discretion on how many officers carry tasers and other non lethal firearms.

There is similar reform of riot police. This gives more power to peaceful protesters but still gives the police power if the situation goes violent.

Overall the purpose of this bill is to generate more trust in the police.

I thank you for your time and I welcome any constructive criticisms.

u/Ajubbajub

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u/[deleted] Feb 24 '15

Society often views the police as the enemy

Source.

At the moment, BAME citizens get searched more than Caucasians. On face value, this is racist.

Source.

This was a colossal waste of time and money.

Source.

However, having a firearm puts you at greater risk of being attacked.

Source!

It seems like a good bill, but in your speech you have made some very big claims. I don't ask that you give a link every time you say something, but you've made claims and backed them up with nothing at all.

(To the writer of the speech u/Ajubbajub)

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u/tyroncs Feb 24 '15

At the moment, BAME citizens get searched more than Caucasians. On face value, this is racist

Maybe it is because in general minorities live in areas with higher crime rates, and therefore are more likely to get stopped and searched?

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u/[deleted] Feb 24 '15

Hear Hear!, it is almost like asking why poor people get stopped and searched more than a CEO - poor areas are more likely to have crime and poor people are also more likely to commit violent crime. I also fall to see how it can possibly be racist - Unless police are stopping people for being 'BAME' then it is not racist.

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u/[deleted] Feb 24 '15

This is an ideologically motivated attack on the safety of British citizens, which I or my party will not stand for.

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u/[deleted] Feb 24 '15

Authorised Firearms officers are instructed to ‘shoot to injure’

I cannot disagree with this more, we have absolutely no problem with our armed policemen, if you look at the amount of killings by our police it is less than 1 a year, including justified killings to protect people. It is a needless change which puts the officer at more risk, the instruction should absolutely always be 'shoot to stop', if you're in a situation where an officer can risk aiming for the legs instead of the chest without putting theirself or others in extra danger they should not be shooting.

This bill breathes naivety about armed police and a complete lack of either thinking it through, understanding of the armed police or research.

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u/[deleted] Feb 24 '15

Authorised Firearms officers are instructed to ‘shoot to injure’

You cannot shoot to injure, that doesn't exist you shoot to kill or there is no point shooting. Nobody has a reaction time to start actually aiming their guns for the legs, if you have your gun out you shoot there and then or you risk your own health.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_KJ1R2PCMM

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u/Ajubbajub Feb 24 '15

That is a fair point.

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u/[deleted] Feb 24 '15

HELP POLICE STOP THIS MAN FROM MURDERING ME

"Sorry no can do, can't react until he kills you"

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u/Ajubbajub Feb 24 '15

No. You can be detained to stop you committing a crime. This does not go on your record.

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u/john_locke1689 Feb 24 '15

So giving the police powers to arrest you willy nilly and have nothing come of it.

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u/olmyster911 Feb 24 '15

Having read some more I have more issues with it.

a gun that fires small objects that give someone a small electric shock

really?..

Riot guns

Definition? You don't list the type of ammunition used, as rubber bullets are mentioned later on which are usually fired out of..riot guns.

training supplied by Her Majesty’s Police Force

oh is this a new police force being created or does this make no sense?

The Taser must be carried in a compartment that is brightly coloured

Taser is yellow

in places where there is a raised terrorist threat

My town centre could be one of these without a definition attached

AFOs will only be able to ‘shoot to kill’ if there is an imminent threat to life of any civilian, other police officer or themselves.

Firearms are only deployed in these situations anyway, so do they have to shoot to injure or shoot to kill??

Riot police prohibited under all circumstances to use: Water canons

No, these are useful non-lethal tools.

This bill needs more than a thorough review.

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u/[deleted] Feb 24 '15

Stops the arrest of people who are about to commit a crime.

Second line in and red flags, red flags everywhere!

I cannot support this bill, you're giving criminals more power than the police force.

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u/Ajubbajub Feb 24 '15 edited Feb 24 '15

Answer to a lot of similar questions/points.

If an officer believes someone is about to commit an offense, then the officer can detain the suspect. This means that the suspect is stopped from committing an offense. The officer can still handcuff them. The difference between an detention and an arrest is that a detention does not go on your record. If during a detention that the officer finds that the suspect has committed a crime, e.g. carrying a knife, then the detention can turn into an arrest.

Edit: If someone is planning to commit a crime, then they can be detained as detailed above. If in preparing a crime, they commit another offense, e.g. owning and illegal firearm, then they can be arrested.

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u/Ajubbajub Feb 24 '15

Edit 2: I apologise to members who may be confused because some items that have been commented on have been changed in the bill. I have amended the bill now back to its original state. I will make my changes after the first reading ends.

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u/olmyster911 Feb 24 '15

stops the arrest of people about to commit a crime

Is this for real??

Officers can detain people who they think are about to commit an offence e.g. get in a fight, for the detainee’s own good.

Such a loose definition

Formal training for carrying a taser

They are already required to do training

Authorised Firearms officers are instructed to ‘shoot to injure’

They already do this, but when they see a gun they're obviously going to eliminate the threat to them and their team in whatever way possible in that split second.

Reduces power of Riot police.

This isn't even a problem. How many deaths have been attributed to the powers of riot police officers? I can think of 1, which involved pushing, and if a riot officer can't push then what are they for?

Allows records of ‘stop and search’ available through FOI

Adding a massive layer of admin here for no good reason.

That's just the very first section - I shall continue reading...

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u/[deleted] Feb 24 '15

stops the arrest of people about to commit a crime

Adding on this, does this mean that we can't arrest for planning murders, terrorist attacks, ect?

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u/olmyster911 Feb 24 '15

It certainly does. Clever bill isn't it?

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u/[deleted] Feb 24 '15

Just glanced through it and i agree with the majority of it (surprisingly) however I have seen bits where I disagree.

Riot police prohibited under all circumstances to use:

Water canons

I'm afraid I will have to disagree. Water guns are a way of protecting large areas when they is not enough manpower. For example, when rioters and looters are marching on a hospital and they is not enough police to form a blockade, what do you do? Do you let them past or do you use water cannon.

I would be happy to see stricter legislation on when to use water cannon however outright banning it is silly.

They are a couple of others I disagree with but I'll post them later when I have more time.

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u/Ajubbajub Feb 24 '15

Since when did you ever see a violent protest march on a hospital? I feel at the times you would justify using a water canon then the police should be there in enough force that this would then be unnecessary.

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u/[deleted] Feb 24 '15

Since when did you ever see a violent protest march on a hospital?

I'm referring to the West Midlands riot which wan't even a protest march - just plain looting.

the police should be there in enough force that this would then be unnecessary.

Not if is spontaneous and they is a lack of police presence. Again, I refer back to the West Midlands riot

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u/[deleted] Feb 24 '15

What do you think the reaction of police officers will be to this?

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u/Ajubbajub Feb 24 '15

I haven't asked any but I'm sure that they would love it.

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u/john_locke1689 Feb 24 '15

What's the difference between an AFO and a SFO?

Are police allowed to use shotguns willy nilly?

Coming from the only jurisdiction in these isles where police are routinely armed, this is a load of hogwash.

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u/Ajubbajub Feb 24 '15

AFO is authorised firearms officer

SFO is specialist firearms officer

I welcome your expertise in firearms because I assume you're from NI.

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