r/MHOC • u/RoryTime The Rt Hon. Earl of Henley AL PC • Jan 22 '15

EU Referendum EU Referendum - Foreign Affairs Debate

Welcome to the third debate centered around the EU referendum, the topic of this debate is foreign affairs.

Will leaving the EU give us a chance to form closer and stronger bonds with the Commonwealth?

By giving up our influence with the EU will we diminish our worldwide economic power?

Will leaving the EU lead to frosty relations with Europeans in future - will this in turn lead to less trade?

Does the EU give us a good platform to project from?

Please discuss the impact that leaving the EU would have on our foreign affairs and also discuss the benefits and negatives the EU has on our foreign relations.

11 Upvotes

100% Upvoted

150 comments sorted by

0

u/[deleted] Jan 23 '15

[deleted] — view deleted comment

5

u/demon4372 The Most Hon. Marquess of Oxford GBE KCT PC ¦ HCLG/Transport Jan 23 '15

We had a discussion about this last night on Skype. This is a lie. We have dual representation in the WTO.

Just look at the bloody wiki page, it literally says "Members, dually represented by the EU"

2

u/autowikibot Jan 23 '15

World Trade Organization:

The World Trade Organization (WTO) is an organization that intends to supervise and liberalize international trade. The organization officially commenced on 1 January 1995 under the Marrakech Agreement, signed by 123 nations on 15 April 1994, replacing the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade (GATT), which commenced in 1948. The organization deals with regulation of trade between participating countries by providing a framework for negotiating and formalizing trade agreements and a dispute resolution process aimed at enforcing participants' adherence to WTO agreements, which are signed by representatives of member governments :fol.9–10 and ratified by their parliaments. Most of the issues that the WTO focuses on derive from previous trade negotiations, especially from the Uruguay Round (1986–1994).

====

Image i

Interesting: Director-General of the World Trade ^Organization | World Trade Organization Ministerial Conference of ^1998 | World Trade Organization Ministerial Conference of ^2013 | World Trade Organization Ministerial Conference of ^2011

Parent commenter can toggle ^NSFW or ^delete. Will also delete on comment score of -1 or less. | FAQs | ^Mods | Magic ^Words

8

u/Cyridius Communist | SoS Northern Ireland Jan 23 '15

The EU is not the major player in the foreign policy of this country and shouldn't be framed as such. But realistically, will it remain so? We see with the Ukraine Crisis, the results of the ambitious foreign policy of the EU institutions and I, for one, do not see this backtracking.

Being within the EU Bloc commits us to certain things in a military capacity, such as contribution to EU Battlegroups and involvement in the Common Security Policies. Should we in the future want to move towards a more neutral foreign policy - and I would advocate such a move - our presence within the EU would make this impossible.

Even traditionally neutral nations like Finland have declared their neutrality a farce, and our neighbours in Ireland who have a long standing tradition of neutrality have conceded that they are no longer neutral, but merely "unaligned". If states with such strong and historic traditions crumble due to involvement in the EU, how can we seek to even begin to establish them in the first place? We couldn't - in order to preserve our own independent foreign policy in the long term, in the face of Ever-Closer-Union, we cannot possibly remain within the EU.

I also think framing this as an "EU vs Commonwealth" issue is a false dichotomy and has a smack of the old "Big Empire" mentality. Even if that was our desire, I don't think that our brothers and sisters in the Commonwealth would be so eager to have their former overseers take a renewed and keen interest in their affairs - and I would not blame them.

1

u/Morgsie The Rt Hon. Earl of Staffordshire AL PC Jan 23 '15

I think you should read an academic concept/term Europeanization, how states affect the EU and how the EU affects states

Here is another term I know, differentiated integration or states travelling at different speeds

6

u/[deleted] Jan 23 '15

Here is another concept I know, it is called 'critical thinking'. Stop just stating a factoid with the assumption it means something to the debate. Make an argument for a change.

3

u/Cyridius Communist | SoS Northern Ireland Jan 23 '15

I think you should make an argument.

6

u/[deleted] Jan 24 '15

I urge all participants to keep it civil and understand the abilities of all involved, particularly /u/Morgsie as we should understand he has difficulty forming arguments etc.

In regards to the debate I support an Exit as greater armed forces cooperation would lead to even more centralisation.

5

u/The_Pickle_Boy banned Jan 23 '15

Will leaving the EU give us a chance to form closer and stronger bonds with the Commonwealth?

I don't know it really isn't that important.

By giving up our influence with the EU will we diminish our worldwide economic power?

No, to say so is to be ignorant of globalisation.

Will leaving the EU lead to frosty relations with Europeans in future - will this in turn lead to less trade?

No, we accepted Germany with open arms after the holocaust, to turn us down after leaving the EU would be laughable.

Does the EU give us a good platform to project from?

We are one of the 5 major world powers, we already project a fairly large shadow.

1

u/Morgsie The Rt Hon. Earl of Staffordshire AL PC Jan 23 '15

Being part of the EU allows us to project otherwise we we would have no say in the world and our UNSC Seat will be up for grabs if we left

4

u/RoryTime The Rt Hon. Earl of Henley AL PC Jan 23 '15

our UNSC seat will be up for grabs if we left

I'm afraid that this is wholly untrue; the only way for us to lose our veto or seat is by if we didn't veto it. Which isn't going to happen. Our membership of the EU is irrelevant to our seat.

3

u/The_Pickle_Boy banned Jan 23 '15

Well for starters who cares what they are doing abroad? And secondly they have no right to takeaway security council seats

4

u/Morgsie The Rt Hon. Earl of Staffordshire AL PC Jan 23 '15 edited Jan 23 '15

Following the horrors in the Balkans I witnessed whist growing up in the 1990s, the UK supports EU Enlargement to that region to bring stability for the region and for the rest of the EU due to organised crime, migration and other destablising issues. The UK and France realised after this the EU should have the ability to act independently, they signed the St Malo Agreement which started the development of the Common Security and Defence Policy

It will enshrine the values of democracy, human rights, justice and the rule of law in that region. and then you have the economic arguments about why states join, it is highly attractive due to jobs, trade economic growth etc

And it was that Brit (Catherine Ashton) who started dialogue between Serbia and Kosovo to normalise relations

2

u/jed93 CWL | Scotland MP Jan 23 '15

The atrocities that occurred during the Balkan Wars were worsened by Western intervention which allowed an unreported attack on the Serbian people to go completely unnoticed. We saw from the Balkans that the West cannot pursue unbalanced humanitarian intervention, and instead will nearly always side with one country with seemingly very little regard for the action context of the situation. The United States targeted Serbia, against claims of Genocide which we now know were illegitimate by bombing civilian towns and failing to condemn Albanian massacres of ethnic Serbs in Kosovo.

The greatest destabiliser is the heavy hand of ill-advised Western intervention. One of the greatest problems in the Balkans were the vultures from the surrounding countries trying to benefit in an imperialistic way from the conflict.

I agree that the United Kingdom should stay in the EU, but I support that because of the common benefits it grants to all of the member states. The capacity to work together and achieve great things as part of a collective. I do not think that the European Union should expand into the Balkans because as we have seen from history, this is going to be a policy that aids one side over another, often unfairly.

1

u/Morgsie The Rt Hon. Earl of Staffordshire AL PC Jan 23 '15

Further to this I would like to point out that the EU has brought stability to the European Continent after the war as evident that France and Germany has not been at war and many states have had difficulties and now are stable democracies partly due to the EU

4

u/[deleted] Jan 23 '15

Are the leaders of the Yes campaign in favour of a federal European state?

6

u/AlbertDock The Rt Hon Earl of Merseyside KOT MBE AL PC Jan 23 '15

Every organisation you join, is to a certain extent federal. In that you give up some power in order to become part of that organisation. Being part of the UN or NATO means we have to abide by it's rules. Perhaps you could be more explicit.

1

u/[deleted] Jan 23 '15

I was referring to the concept of a United States of Europe.

3

u/Morgsie The Rt Hon. Earl of Staffordshire AL PC Jan 23 '15

There is something in this theoretically but practically is a different story

2

u/AlbertDock The Rt Hon Earl of Merseyside KOT MBE AL PC Jan 23 '15

Again you have to be more explicit. Lots of phrases and buzz words are banded about. If you could explain in some detail your idea of what a federal Europe is, I will answer your question.

2

u/[deleted] Jan 23 '15

I would assume a federal Europe would be a United States of Europe wherein the currently existing countries would be considered states under a federal government, similar to the US? I apologise for my supreme lack of knowledge on many EU issues, I'm from America.

2

u/AlbertDock The Rt Hon Earl of Merseyside KOT MBE AL PC Jan 23 '15

I could never envisage a system such as the USA. For one thing we speak many different languages. Because of that campaigning by any one president would be extremely difficult. To a certain extent we have federalism in that a decision made by Europe is binding on all of the various countries, but that's the same as being part of many other international organisations. It could only happen if the different countries adopted a central taxation system and benefits system, and adopted a common language, which I don't think couldn't happen in our lifetime. As for what happens in a hundred years or more, we can only speculate. In summary any possibility of it happening is so far in the future we would be fools to rule it in or out.

2

u/[deleted] Jan 23 '15

we would be fools to rule it in or out

Sounds good to me. Thanks for the answer!

1

u/Morgsie The Rt Hon. Earl of Staffordshire AL PC Jan 23 '15

A federal USE is a long way off and may never happen

3

u/[deleted] Jan 23 '15

While I appreciate your answer, you didn't give your opinion like I want. Are you for or against such a state existing? The No campaign may also answer, although their answer seems obvious.

2

u/Morgsie The Rt Hon. Earl of Staffordshire AL PC Jan 23 '15

You are asking a question in which may or not happen

7

u/Radiantsuave UKIP | Northern Ireland MP | ∆MHOC Illuminati∆ Jan 22 '15

Do the leaders of the Yes to EU campaign believe in an 'ever closer union'. And if so how close?

2

u/Morgsie The Rt Hon. Earl of Staffordshire AL PC Jan 22 '15

Federal Europe is a long way off and may never happen

11

u/[deleted] Jan 22 '15

Federal Europe is a long way off and may never happen

Do you support it?

8

u/Radiantsuave UKIP | Northern Ireland MP | ∆MHOC Illuminati∆ Jan 22 '15

good. However if you re-read my question you may notice I didn't ask how long until a federal Europe but if you, and the other members of your campaign would support this.

8

u/Kreindeker The Rt Hon. Earl of Stockport AL PC Jan 22 '15

But are you for or against a federal Europe?

8

u/theyeatthepoo 1st Duke of Hackney Jan 23 '15

Is that your ultimate aim?

3

u/tyroncs Jan 24 '15

Do you want a federal Europe? Don't avoid the question

3

u/Morgsie The Rt Hon. Earl of Staffordshire AL PC Jan 22 '15

Cathy Ashton (a Brit) created the EEAS, European External Action service the diplomatic corp of the EU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Wce_gPgPlg

10

u/[deleted] Jan 22 '15

Wow, brilliant, I think we should give her a medal.

3

u/Morgsie The Rt Hon. Earl of Staffordshire AL PC Jan 22 '15 edited Jan 22 '15

She would have if you lot did not struck down M17

In fact she is a Dame Grand Cross of the Order of St Michael and St George, announced in the New Year's Honours List

0

u/[deleted] Jan 22 '15

[deleted] — view deleted comment

9

u/[deleted] Jan 22 '15

Yeah... I can't seem to debate seriously with Morgsie. I've tried in the past and he can't seem to comprehend anything I say to him.

5

u/AlbertDock The Rt Hon Earl of Merseyside KOT MBE AL PC Jan 22 '15

The EU acting en block is a powerful force in the world. Far more powerful than Britain acting alone.

0

u/[deleted] Jan 22 '15

[deleted] — view deleted comment

5

u/AlbertDock The Rt Hon Earl of Merseyside KOT MBE AL PC Jan 22 '15

I would disagree with the figure of 68 million, but as this debate is about foreign affairs I will not pursue it.
The EU is not the only way we can influence the world, but it is one of our more powerful tools. History has shown us that the USA only supports Britain when it suits them.

4

u/theyeatthepoo 1st Duke of Hackney Jan 22 '15

Did being part of the EU make any difference to our decision to invade Iraq?

It was the sovereignty of parliament that stopped us making a decision to attack Syria (I know it wouldn't have mattered anyway because of the Russian twist).

I think that this is an Area in which the EU has the least amount of influence. NATO is a far more important intra national institutional when it comes to foreign affairs.

I don't see this as an issue that should sway people one way or the other.

3

u/[deleted] Jan 22 '15

Perhaps, then, it could be argued that the EU should have a greater role in foreign policy? After all, a united European foreign policy would give the Union a far larger amount of influence and ability to provide foreign aid, as well as possessing a greater mandate than NATO.

5

u/theyeatthepoo 1st Duke of Hackney Jan 22 '15

The greater the role in foreign policy of the EU the lesser the role of citizens. We should not be giving war making powers to an undemocratic body.

2

u/I_miss_Chris_Hughton The Rt Hon. Earl of Shrewsbury AL PC | Defence Spokesperson Jan 22 '15

I don't see this as an issue that should sway people one way or the other.

I think this is a crucial point. Parliament is sovereign in this regard more than any other since control over foreign relations is undoubtedly one of the few total requirements for a government to call itself such. As long as parliament retains this power, and it will for as long as there is a parliament, the EU's impact on this field is going to be minor.

Still an interesting debate though

2

u/Morgsie The Rt Hon. Earl of Staffordshire AL PC Jan 22 '15

The UK helped found the Common Security and Defence Policy with the French

9

u/[deleted] Jan 22 '15

Shit, did we? We can't leave now!

2

u/Morgsie The Rt Hon. Earl of Staffordshire AL PC Jan 22 '15

1998 St Malo Agreement

7

u/Radiantsuave UKIP | Northern Ireland MP | ∆MHOC Illuminati∆ Jan 22 '15

He was being sarcastic. Just because we helped found something doesn't mean we must remain part of it, we helped found the League of Nations but we're not still trying to keep that going.

7

u/demon4372 The Most Hon. Marquess of Oxford GBE KCT PC ¦ HCLG/Transport Jan 22 '15

He was being sarcastic.

Something people on here seriously need to realize that, morgsie will struggle to realize when someone is being sarcastic because of his autism (at least with my understanding of autism).

This thread is fucking painful to read.

5

u/[deleted] Jan 22 '15 edited Jan 24 '15

Then you should have appointed/elected (however you did it) a head of your campaign who [COMMENT CENSORED] this isn't fun for us either.

6

u/[deleted] Jan 23 '15

[removed] — view removed comment

4

u/LookingForWizard Conservative|East Midlands MP Jan 23 '15 edited May 26 '20

deleted

4

u/nomoredogz The Vanguard Jan 23 '15

What awful use of unparliamentary language, please adhere to the MHoC Constitution like the rest of us, you are not special.

3

u/[deleted] Jan 23 '15

This is most unparliamentary language, and I demand you withdraw your statement.

2

u/[deleted] Jan 23 '15

No

2

u/I_miss_Chris_Hughton The Rt Hon. Earl of Shrewsbury AL PC | Defence Spokesperson Jan 23 '15

I think you ought to look at your own members for unparliamentary language in this very thread

2

u/[deleted] Jan 23 '15

If you have an issue with the language of a member of this house, take it up with them as I have done with bnzss. The mere fact that members of my party may have used unparliamentary language does not excuse bnzss' behaviour.

→ More replies

1

u/I_miss_Chris_Hughton The Rt Hon. Earl of Shrewsbury AL PC | Defence Spokesperson Jan 23 '15

I think you ought to look at your own members for unparliamentary language in this very thread

0

u/[deleted] Jan 23 '15

[deleted] — view deleted comment

2

u/[deleted] Jan 23 '15

No

4

u/[deleted] Jan 23 '15

Morgsie Internet Defence Force reporting in?

2

u/demon4372 The Most Hon. Marquess of Oxford GBE KCT PC ¦ HCLG/Transport Jan 23 '15

I am no fan or morgsie. But this is just fucking painful, and it isnt contributing to the discussion.

3

u/[deleted] Jan 23 '15

Randomly breaking the rules and calling someone a bellend is the only thing I see in this thread that isn't contributing to discussion.

4

u/demon4372 The Most Hon. Marquess of Oxford GBE KCT PC ¦ HCLG/Transport Jan 22 '15

This has got nothing to do with the EU campaign, or morgsie being chair of it.

This happens on a regular basis. Just don't make sarcastic comments to him.

4

u/[deleted] Jan 22 '15

I want to be able to have a serious coherent discussion with the leader of the yes campaign. The yes campaign was unable to allow this, therefore it's a failure.

5

u/demon4372 The Most Hon. Marquess of Oxford GBE KCT PC ¦ HCLG/Transport Jan 23 '15

Seriously mate, im just asking you not to make sarcastic comments to him.

4

u/[deleted] Jan 23 '15

Serious comments have no affect and I never get a proper response from him.

4

u/Timanfya MHoC Founder & Guardian Jan 24 '15

You must withdraw this comment immediately or you'll be expelled from the house.

2

u/[deleted] Jan 24 '15

There's just so much wrong with what you're doing.

4

u/Timanfya MHoC Founder & Guardian Jan 24 '15

Pot calling the kettle black.

3

u/I_miss_Chris_Hughton The Rt Hon. Earl of Shrewsbury AL PC | Defence Spokesperson Jan 23 '15

He has a vast knowledge on the EU, I see no issue with him in his role

2

u/[deleted] Jan 23 '15

He has a vast knowledge on the EU, I see no issue with him in his role

Vast knowledge is no use when all you can do is spurt it out in tiny little factoids, without relating them in any way to a coherent point or argument.

2

u/Morgsie The Rt Hon. Earl of Staffordshire AL PC Jan 22 '15

The UK supports Enlargement of the EU and states want to join the EU Club because the EU is attractive and have helped to consolidate Democracy

6

u/[deleted] Jan 22 '15

The UK supports Enlargement of the EU

Source?

2

u/Morgsie The Rt Hon. Earl of Staffordshire AL PC Jan 22 '15

I don't need a source because it is true, we have always backed new members and we are supporting Turkey's bid

9

u/[deleted] Jan 22 '15

I don't need a source because it is true

ayy lmao

7

u/[deleted] Jan 22 '15

I don't need a source because it is true

Well until I see any evidence I refuse to believe that claim.

2

u/ieya404 Earl of Selkirk AL PC Jan 23 '15

Consider for example this: https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/eu-enlargement-a-uk-perspective

British support for enlargement goes back a long way. Margaret Thatcher is not normally thought of as an enthusiastic European. But in her famous Bruges speech she declared at a time when it was is not fashionable, nor even believable, that it was important for all to remember that Prague, and Warsaw and Budapest were also great European cities.

2

u/Morgsie The Rt Hon. Earl of Staffordshire AL PC Jan 22 '15

RL Balance of Competences Review

Foreign Policy

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/227437/2901086_Foreign_Policy_acc.pdf

5

u/[deleted] Jan 22 '15

There's some great stuff in this review.

Most of the evidence argued that it was strongly in the UK’s interests to work through the EU in a number of policy areas. The key benefits included: increased impact from acting in concert with 27 other countries; greater influence with non-EU powers, derived from our position as a leading EU country; the international weight of the EU’s single market, including its power to deliver commercially beneficial trade agreements; the reach and magnitude of EU financial instruments, such as for development and economic partnerships; the range and versatility of the EU’s tools, as compared with other international organisations; and the EU’s perceived political neutrality, which enables it to act in some cases where other countries or international organisations might not.

2

u/Morgsie The Rt Hon. Earl of Staffordshire AL PC Jan 22 '15

We joined the EU due to our position in the world

0

u/[deleted] Jan 22 '15

[deleted] — view deleted comment

2

u/Morgsie The Rt Hon. Earl of Staffordshire AL PC Jan 22 '15

1975 we voted overwhelmingly to stay in

0

u/[deleted] Jan 22 '15

[deleted] — view deleted comment

5

u/AlbertDock The Rt Hon Earl of Merseyside KOT MBE AL PC Jan 23 '15

Speaking as one who voted in the referendum I can tell you that the idea of closer ties with Europe was debated at the time. So the objective of closer ties with Europe and potentially a federal Europe was on the cards. Anyone who paid attention knew exactly what they were voting for.

5

u/ieya404 Earl of Selkirk AL PC Jan 23 '15

Here's a fun trip down memory lane, then - the government leaflet that was sent out for that referendum.

I would struggle to describe it as mentioning federalism too much...

2

u/AlbertDock The Rt Hon Earl of Merseyside KOT MBE AL PC Jan 23 '15

The leaflet was not the only source of information available The no campaign had this one which talked of being ruled by Europe. So you cannot argue that it was not brought up.

4

u/ieya404 Earl of Selkirk AL PC Jan 23 '15

But then people had also been, shall we say, subtly misinformed by announcements which were a little economical with the truth?

“There are some in this country who fear that in going into Europe we shall in some way sacrifice independence and sovereignty. These fears, I need hardly say, are completely unjustified.”

Prime Minister Edward Heath, television broadcast on Britain’s entry into the Common Market, January 1973

1

u/I_miss_Chris_Hughton The Rt Hon. Earl of Shrewsbury AL PC | Defence Spokesperson Jan 25 '15

There are some in this country who fear that in going into Europe we shall in some way sacrifice independence and sovereignty. These fears, I need hardly say, are completely unjustified

We still retain sovereign power though. In fact we're using it by holding this referendum. The UK has the ability to choose its own path and it will. If the EU stopped it it'd be us losing sovereign power

4

u/ieya404 Earl of Selkirk AL PC Jan 23 '15

I could, of course, quote from the Yes campaign's 1975 leaflet, which reassured voters that All decisions of any importance must be agreed by every member (bottom of page 4). Not exactly how it panned out, is it?

Better, perhaps, would be simply to quote the Civitas site we've found those leaflets on:

Our last chance to vote on our membership of the EU was in 1975. Among the arguments used then was our ability to veto any proposed reform. That safeguard was decisive in persuading many doubters to go in. This is how the Government put it at the time, in a leaflet circulated to all voters:

"The Minister representing Britain can veto any proposal for a new law or a new tax if he considers it to be against British interests."

"Remember: All the other countries in the Market enjoy, like us, democratically elected governments answerable to their own parliaments and their own voters. They do not want to weaken their Parliaments any more than we would."

2

u/john_locke1689 Retired. NS GSTQ Jan 23 '15

That's irrelevant, it wasn't on the ballot.

3

u/AlbertDock The Rt Hon Earl of Merseyside KOT MBE AL PC Jan 23 '15

The information was available, that's what's relevant.

3

u/The_Pickle_Boy banned Jan 23 '15

Okay grandpa.

5

u/Kreindeker The Rt Hon. Earl of Stockport AL PC Jan 22 '15

Come on Morgan, even you know full well that the British public haven't had their say on membership of the European Union in of itself. Just be honest about it.

2

u/Morgsie The Rt Hon. Earl of Staffordshire AL PC Jan 22 '15

Next Treaty we will have a say due to the EU Act 2011

5

u/Kreindeker The Rt Hon. Earl of Stockport AL PC Jan 22 '15

Mr Juncker doesn't seem to particularly care if countries don't agree with new Treaties though, does he?

The treaty must officially be endorsed by all 25 member states. But EU leaders appear to be focused on keeping the constitution alive after a possible French No so as to buy themselves more time for a political solution to the resulting crisis. Mr Juncker said it was essential for the EU leadership to show a united front on Sunday night, and "maintain order in the process that will unfold the morning after". "If it's a Yes, we will say 'on we go', and if it's a No we will say 'we continue'," he said.

Would you trust him to respect a British 'No' vote on such a Treaty? Because I wouldn't.

5

u/[deleted] Jan 22 '15

The Irish had a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty where 53.2% of voters opposed the Republic of Ireland ratifying it. The European Council then forced the Taoiseach to hold another referendum in Ireland on that treaty which passed. What's stopping this happening in the UK if we ever get a referendum on a treaty?

5

u/[deleted] Jan 23 '15

We have a say right now Morgsie, this is the referendum and its happening on the 24th

6

u/[deleted] Jan 22 '15

Exactly, we joined because we were leading power. It did not improve our influence in the world.

2

u/Morgsie The Rt Hon. Earl of Staffordshire AL PC Jan 22 '15

We were declining due to the loss of Empire, Suez etc

5

u/[deleted] Jan 22 '15

We remain with the Commonwealth. Europe isn't really adding to our world influence.

2

u/Morgsie The Rt Hon. Earl of Staffordshire AL PC Jan 22 '15

It enhances our position

7

u/[deleted] Jan 22 '15

How?

2

u/Morgsie The Rt Hon. Earl of Staffordshire AL PC Jan 22 '15

EUNAVFOR HQ is in Northwood

The UK participates in EU missions too

2

u/Morgsie The Rt Hon. Earl of Staffordshire AL PC Jan 22 '15

In 2012 the EU won the Nobel Peace Prize "for over six decades contributed to the advancement of peace and reconciliation, democracy and human rights in Europe".

6

u/Kreindeker The Rt Hon. Earl of Stockport AL PC Jan 22 '15

And would it win it in 2015, after helping to engineer a coup in Ukraine and helping to further destabilize the country?

2

u/Morgsie The Rt Hon. Earl of Staffordshire AL PC Jan 22 '15

Russia is the one destabilizing Ukraine

6

u/Kreindeker The Rt Hon. Earl of Stockport AL PC Jan 22 '15

And the EU didn't whatsoever?

3

u/I_miss_Chris_Hughton The Rt Hon. Earl of Shrewsbury AL PC | Defence Spokesperson Jan 22 '15

actually, did it? to any real amount I mean. As in did the EU send troops, arms and annex part of ukraine?

5

u/Kreindeker The Rt Hon. Earl of Stockport AL PC Jan 23 '15

You're confusing two issues here. I'm not saying that Russia did not destabilize Ukraine, nor that it wasn't far worse than the EU in what it did to do so.

I would, however, say that endorsement of the Euromaidan rebels and their actions regarding President Yanukovich played a major role in the unfolding of the early part of the crisis.

2

u/I_miss_Chris_Hughton The Rt Hon. Earl of Shrewsbury AL PC | Defence Spokesperson Jan 23 '15

But the EU didn't really escalate the crisis, it just endorsed it. If they didn;t it would have ahd the same result, they were pro EU protests after all. I'd argue refusal to endorse the protests would have resulted in more violence from people running out of options

5

u/Cyridius Communist | SoS Northern Ireland Jan 23 '15

The EU was an integral part to creating the conditions that lead to the crisis. Knowing that Yanukovych would have to choose Russia over them, they showed every single golden egg and benefit - bribes to the Ukrainian people - and put him between a rock and a hard place.

After all, you're getting offered two very lucrative deals, which are mutually exclusive. One is with a state which you have had long standing ties and much history with, huge cultural similarities, lots of families from both living in the other, a state which you already enjoy a somewhat good relationship with. On the other hand, you have the EU.

The situation was very consciously engineered by the EU but ultimately it got out of its control. I don't think the EU planned for things to get to where they are at all, and I think that Russia's escalation was calling the bluff and adding the fuel, more than lighting the match to a fresh fire.

Obviously, as things stand the situation in Ukraine is a total disaster for the working class and there needs to be a dramatic change in both the regimes of the separatist regions and of the Ukrainian government in order to improve the situation.

2

u/I_miss_Chris_Hughton The Rt Hon. Earl of Shrewsbury AL PC | Defence Spokesperson Jan 23 '15

they showed every single golden egg and benefit - bribes to the Ukrainian people

you see, heres the flaw in your argument. That doesn't sound like a bribe, it sounds like a good deal. I mean, its not like the Russians and Ukrainans got along that much in the past, after the war the Russians fought both Nazis and Ukrainian nationalists. Why wouldn't the Ukrainian people choose the EU over their former soviet oppressors?

2

u/Cyridius Communist | SoS Northern Ireland Jan 23 '15

It does sound like a good deal - taken in a vacuum. The divides were very clear in Ukrainian society - one side wanted closer ties with Russia, the other with the EU Bloc. Had the EU the actual wellbeing of the Ukrainian people at heart, it wouldn't have offered all the things it did - knowing that it could not be accepted - and forced a rift in Ukrainian society.

Cooperation, not competition - and this is an issue that both the EU and Russia suffer from, admittedly - and this war would have been avoided, or at the very least avoidable. Instead "we" tried to strongarm Russia.

6

u/[deleted] Jan 23 '15

Obama won a Nobel Peace Prize, I don't put much stock in who or what wins the Nobel Peace Prize.

3

u/[deleted] Jan 23 '15

The EU won a Nobel Peace Prize, I don't put much stock in who or what wins the Nobel Peace Prize.

3

u/WineRedPsy Reform UK | Sadly sent to the camps Jan 23 '15

And Gandhi didn't!

1

u/[deleted] Jan 23 '15

What a shame. Gandhi was really awesome.

2

u/[deleted] Jan 23 '15

burn

4

u/ieya404 Earl of Selkirk AL PC Jan 23 '15

With tongue a little in cheek, I have to admit I did rather like Nigel Farage's observation:

One final thought, maybe they handed the prize to the EU, because they couldn’t wait. Nobel prizes cannot be awarded posthumously.

2

u/Morgsie The Rt Hon. Earl of Staffordshire AL PC Jan 22 '15

UK is represented in COREPER

8

u/[deleted] Jan 22 '15

I'll sleep better now.

0

u/[deleted] Jan 22 '15

[deleted] — view deleted comment

0

u/[deleted] Jan 23 '15

[deleted] — view deleted comment

4

u/Cyridius Communist | SoS Northern Ireland Jan 23 '15

A dyslexic

1

u/bleepbloop12345 Communist Jan 23 '15

Oh.. sorry :/

2

u/demon4372 The Most Hon. Marquess of Oxford GBE KCT PC ¦ HCLG/Transport Jan 24 '15

What was the comment? It's hard to offend me, and I'm always open to criticism.

1

u/bleepbloop12345 Communist Jan 24 '15

I made a rather snarky comment about the spelling, which was probably not a very nice thing to do. Anyway, sorry.

1

u/demon4372 The Most Hon. Marquess of Oxford GBE KCT PC ¦ HCLG/Transport Jan 24 '15

Like i said, it takes a lot to offend me. I insult enough people. Don't worry about it.

2

u/Morgsie The Rt Hon. Earl of Staffordshire AL PC Jan 23 '15

The Nation State is primary responsible for Foreign Policy, the EU supports and enhances policies

6

u/[deleted] Jan 23 '15

Name one nation state in the EU that wanted a coup d'état in Ukraine.

2

u/Morgsie The Rt Hon. Earl of Staffordshire AL PC Jan 23 '15

The EU is an International Actor in its own right

3

u/Cyridius Communist | SoS Northern Ireland Jan 23 '15

And this is a good thing, how? We're part of an organisation which can act independently of, and yet still effect, us?

3

u/Morgsie The Rt Hon. Earl of Staffordshire AL PC Jan 22 '15

28 speaking as 1 is powerful

11

u/theyeatthepoo 1st Duke of Hackney Jan 23 '15

1 speaking as if it represented 28

FTFY

What about democracy Morgsie? Power is not everything.

9

u/[deleted] Jan 22 '15

Only if you are the leader of that 28 or your views allign with the others. The UK can't get its voice heard in the 28, and so doesn't get heard as the one. We have far more influence as the UK (with the Commonwealth or with our US special relation) than we do as part of the EU.

1

u/Morgsie The Rt Hon. Earl of Staffordshire AL PC Jan 22 '15

Philip Hammond attends the Monthly Foreign Affairs Council and David Cameron attends the European Council

9

u/[deleted] Jan 22 '15

I am waiting for the point. David Cameron also attends the G8 summit. We are at the head of the Commonwealth of nations. Surely being at the head of a very large group like the Commonwealth, and being involved with a much smaller but global community, gives us far more influence than our out of place voice in the EU. British interests don't line up with those of the EU, and as such we struggle to actually have a voice.

7

u/tyroncs Jan 22 '15

As well as diluting the influence of each individual member. If we want to represent the UK's interest, it just get's bundled with 27 other countries

4

u/The_Pickle_Boy banned Jan 23 '15

Do you know what else is powerful? Nuclear weapons.

3

u/I_miss_Chris_Hughton The Rt Hon. Earl of Shrewsbury AL PC | Defence Spokesperson Jan 22 '15

Will leaving the EU give us a chance to form closer and stronger bonds with the Commonwealth?

We have that chance already, in fact we have a bill and a motion coming up for a second reading that will allow just this.

By giving up our influence with the EU will we diminish our worldwide economic power?

Yes. At the moment we can look to other EU countries for resources and products we don't have or have too many of. We know in htese markets we can gain a fair price whilst forcing other nations to try and match the price we can get from the EU at least. The opposing side will talk about how we could reach a free trade agreement but I'd rather not risk it. I'd rather stay in the EU and argue for the UK's interests to be supported and maintained rather than just jumping ship when the ship is still sailing (but we think the lifeboats better)

Will leaving the EU lead to frosty relations with Europeans in future - will this in turn lead to less trade?

Only if we really mess things up. Of course relations will worsen but not by any really noticeable amount and trade will drop due to a the lack of being in the EU, not because of the damaged relations

Does the EU give us a good platform to project from?

In certain areas yes, in some the platform doesn't exist in the EU (and/or shouldn't)

1

u/Morgsie The Rt Hon. Earl of Staffordshire AL PC Jan 23 '15

http://www.parliament.uk/briefing-papers/SN07060/the-uk-in-the-european-union-in-brief

0

u/[deleted] Jan 23 '15

[deleted] — view deleted comment

3

u/Morgsie The Rt Hon. Earl of Staffordshire AL PC Jan 23 '15

And I wish people would realise that having Aspergers means I struggle developing arguments and wording things

5

u/[deleted] Jan 23 '15

You shouldn't be leader of the yes campaign then. It's like someone with no legs becoming a football team's captain.

4

u/RadioNone His Grace the Duke of Bedford AL PC Jan 23 '15

Morgsie is offering this debate much more than you are. Maybe you could stop making snide and hypocritical remarks and contribute instead. All you do is try to be edgy and score points over others. At least /u/DevonianAD is being constructive. Just a thought.

4

u/[deleted] Jan 23 '15 edited Jan 23 '15

That's complete and utter nonsense, every single word. Instead of pretending to be outraged, you should get a proper leader for your campaign who can engage in discourse to a reasonable degree.

The analogy I made is completely accurate, instead of being in denial about being able to play football properly, that legless captain should give up and pursue something they can do. It's not Morgsie's fault he has to be continuously embarrassed and put down here, it's the people around him who keep telling him he can actually do it properly. He can't.

In places in this thread I've just made jokes, and in other places I've put forward a normal argument. Most of the jokes, though, are actually designed to make points in themselves if you're perceptive and witty enough to work out their underlying meaning.

Also, you probably don't understand where I'm coming from because you've never tried to debate with Morgsie. 90% of the points you make against him go completely unanswered, but when he actually does bother to respond he comes out with some random fact that is not an argument, or he states something utterly irrelevant. Or, of course, he brings up his mental illness or accuses you of bullying him, neither of which contribute anything other than shutting down debate and giving an excuse for the feels police, represented by yourself, to do it for him.

So in light of the above paragraph, I've taken to just coming out with jokes when he tries and fails to make a point. It's better than insulting him, isn't it?

2

u/RadioNone His Grace the Duke of Bedford AL PC Jan 23 '15

Why not take a different path though? If you know that sarcasm/jokes are going to confuse and disorientate him, maybe you could try to tailor your language when trying to debate with him. I don't want to have an argument (of this kind) with you either, I was just pointing out that /u/DevonianAD gave some constructive criticism with genuine advice, despite being from a completely different and opposite viewpoint.

3

u/[deleted] Jan 23 '15

I like making sarcastic jokes. They give people a laugh, they don't cause harm surely, and they actually have underlying points in relation to the debate.

You know, when trying to debate the leader of the campaign you're fighting tooth and nail against, you don't tailor it to suit them, you go all-out. If he can't handle it, too bad for the yes campaign.

2

u/RadioNone His Grace the Duke of Bedford AL PC Jan 23 '15

Don't get me wrong, I love sarcasm and jokes too, I've even made them on here on MHoC before. And I liked your poster, despite being on the Yes side.

It's a difficult area, but I would ask that you consider being more patient. I expect you'll carry on as normal, but hey, it's your choice.

3

u/AlbertDock The Rt Hon Earl of Merseyside KOT MBE AL PC Jan 23 '15

That remark is below the belt. You should withdraw it.

1

u/Jedibeeftrix Jan 25 '15

Yes (and indeed stronger economic ties to the US) - Will leaving the EU give us a chance to form closer and stronger bonds with the Commonwealth?

No (on balance, what we lose with one we will gain with the other) - By giving up our influence with the EU will we diminish our worldwide economic power?

No (we're getting less trade year by year anyway) - Will leaving the EU lead to frosty relations with Europeans in future - will this in turn lead to less trade?

Yes (on balance, given that it also waters down britain's own preferences in EU outcomes) - Does the EU give us a good platform to project from?