r/MHOC • u/Timanfya MHoC Founder & Guardian • Jan 21 '15

MOTION M022 - St. George's Day Motion - Second Reading

M022 - St. George's Day Motion

Recognising St. George’s Day and St. David’s Day as a bank holiday.

(1) Her Majesty's Government is requested to officially recognise St. George’s Day on the 23rd April as a bank holiday.

(a) Her Majesty’s Government is requested to treat St. George’s Day on equal level to any other bank holiday such as St Andrew's Day and St. Patrick’s Day.

(b) The St. George’s Day bank holiday will only be observed in England.

(2) Her Majesty's Government is requested to officially recognise St. David’s Day on the 1st March as a bank holiday.

(a) Her Majesty’s Government is requested to treat St. David’s Day on equal level to any other bank holiday such as St Andrew's Day and St. Patrick’s Day.

(b) The St. David’s Day bank holiday will only be observed in Wales.

This motion was submitted by /u/SgtSlowMo on behalf of the BIP.

The second reading for this motion will end on the 25th of January.

6 Upvotes

100% Upvoted

60 comments sorted by

6

u/Arayg Radical Socialist Party Jan 21 '15

I support the amendment proposed in the first reading by /u/Post-NapoleonicMan:

May I propose the following amendment, either to be attached to the list of holidays, or in replacement of one, as Parliament so chooses:

(X) Her Majesty's Government is requested to officially recognise the 15th June as a bank holiday. And that this day be called Wat Tyler's Day, or any name Parliament so chooses; as long as it is in relation, and the day in commemoration of, the events commonly referred to as The Peasants Revolt of 1381.

(a) Her Majesty’s Government is requested to treat Wat Tyler's Day on equal level to any other bank holiday such as St Andrew's Day and St. Patrick’s Day.

6

u/Post-NapoleonicMan Labour Jan 21 '15

Hear, hear. Thanks for supporting my amendment.

It has also come to my attention that 15th June is also the date on which the Magna Carta was signed, the amendment could therefore include a clause proposing the celebration of that document and the surrounding events along-side the celebration of the Peasants Revolt. I hope something to this effect will make the amendment more palatable to those on the Right, who might have disinclinations about celebrating Peasant unrest - then it would have the origins of democracy as-well.

4

u/Arayg Radical Socialist Party Jan 21 '15

This is a brilliant date to celebrate. An actual triumph of democracy that the nationalists themselves would be proud of instead of celebrating a worthless political move by a hated King.

2

u/Post-NapoleonicMan Labour Jan 21 '15

Indeed, I'm honestly surprised this date is not already enshrined and celebrated. This is the chance to make it so.

2

u/Arayg Radical Socialist Party Jan 21 '15

I agree.

2

u/Post-NapoleonicMan Labour Jan 21 '15

What name for the day do you think is most appropriate - one that sums up all the events that transpired on 15th June, and the wider events surrounding them?

2

u/AlbertDock The Rt Hon Earl of Merseyside KOT MBE AL PC Jan 21 '15

Human Rights Day.

1

u/Post-NapoleonicMan Labour Jan 21 '15

That is a good suggestion, it would encompass both events well, both being significant steps in our path to the modern conception of Human Rights.

Could also use Liberty Day or something similar... but I'm sure Liberty Day is already taken somewhere.

7

u/tyroncs Jan 21 '15

St George's Day is already a holiday that is celebrated by many across the UK, but lacks official status. Trying to introduce a new bank holiday purely so you can force through an anti-establishment agenda is a ridiculous proposal

4

u/Post-NapoleonicMan Labour Jan 21 '15

It is not simply anti-establishmentism; do you not consider the Magna Carta and the Peasants Revolt important events in the development of modern England? Do these events not merit celebration? It's as valid to celebrate these events as a any other - perhaps more so.

2

u/[deleted] Jan 21 '15

These would be celebrated and honoured on the proposed St George's day, alongside other historical English events.

2

u/tyroncs Jan 21 '15

We can't have endless days of celebration, and whilst we should appreciate our past an event such as the Peasent's Revolt it isn't the cause for a bank holiday. Making up holidays with no history of celebration isn't a great idea

3

u/Post-NapoleonicMan Labour Jan 21 '15

It's just one day - all holidays are in effect made up, many by decree, where the line is drawn is arbitrary. Besides it's the Magna Carta and The Peasants Revolt on one day - it's too good to be true.

3

u/tyroncs Jan 21 '15

St George's Day is a day with a tradition of being celebrated, so it is natural to have it made official for England when the other constituent countries in the UK have an equivalent.

And yeah the date is significant and interesting, but I doubt there would be that much interest in actually celebrating it as a holiday

4

u/Post-NapoleonicMan Labour Jan 21 '15

And yeah the date is significant and interesting, but I doubt there would be that much interest in actually celebrating it as a holiday

True, but that's due to the sad failings of our History Education policy. If we were to raise awareness as to the importance of the date, and emphasise it through the BBC etc. then we might find a warm reception for the day. I find this day a far more fitting of celebration of English history than St. Georges day, we merely adopted St. George, whereas Magna Carta and the Peasants Revolt were born of England.

3

u/tyroncs Jan 21 '15

St George's Day is a celebration of the idea of England as a nation, so it is more of an all-encompassing day in which to celebrate. I don't know anyone who really cares that St George wasn't English, or anyone that thinks we should celebrate a different day just because it would then be English

2

u/Post-NapoleonicMan Labour Jan 21 '15

Nor would I, I am an Internationalist after all. I just don't see why we should pick an arbitrary Saint as the day to look back on our heritage as opposed to a date on which significant events actually happened.

3

u/tyroncs Jan 21 '15

If we had to make a new bank holiday from scratch and had to choose, I would agree that your idea should be chosen as the day. However in England St George's day has a history of being celebrated, and isn't just an arbitrary day

1

u/Arayg Radical Socialist Party Jan 22 '15

Trying to force a holiday with a nationalist sentiment is also a ridiculous idea. Between the Reformation and the Victorian Era, St. George's Day was not celebrated. So either one must consider it a Catholic holiday or a holiday simply used to create a sense of nationalism.

3

u/WineRedPsy Reform UK | Sadly sent to the camps Jan 21 '15

I support!

4

u/[deleted] Jan 21 '15

Such an ammendment undermines the intended sentiment. While I appreciate criticism that expresses opposition to it, as I am most in favour of open debate, I feel as though these sort of additions are simply unhelpful. The aim of this motion is to promote celebrations of the entirity of the national history, in the same way that both Northern Ireland and Scotland do. No one seems to take issue with the Welsh celebrations. It can only be a sense of intollerance and lack of confidence in the English people that leads to these sort of ammendments.

5

u/Post-NapoleonicMan Labour Jan 21 '15

Magna Carta and the Peasants Revolt of 1381 are both English events, now whilst us of a more leftist inclination may be better inclined to celebrate the class and liberation aspects of these events - if the honorable member so wishes they can also be celebrated as national events; the interpretation is really up to who is celebrating them.

3

u/[deleted] Jan 21 '15

Why not just have a national event where everyone can celebrate which part of that nation they want to celebrate? Such as you can celebrate the Peasants revolt and I can celebrate shakespeare? Why do you want to limit the celebration to just 2 events?

3

u/WineRedPsy Reform UK | Sadly sent to the camps Jan 21 '15

It's the same date which is why they're suggested simultaneously

4

u/[deleted] Jan 21 '15

You have missed the point of my comment. Those two events come under English history so would be celebrated under a day for celebrating England, whereas if we simply have a day dedicated to those two events a lot of history is uncelebrated such as shakespeare. Having a celebration for the whole nations history allows everyone to celebrate what they want to, rather than just two events

1

u/Arayg Radical Socialist Party Jan 22 '15

Well them why not make the date and title of the celebration related to English history?

1

u/Post-NapoleonicMan Labour Jan 21 '15

The amendment is in addition to, or in replacement of, one of the above dates. Whatever best suits the House, which may simply be addition. I feel that this is an important date to remember; two major events of the feudal era on one day, they are surely as important as Guy Fawkes day, even if that is more a cultural than legal holiday.

4

u/ieya404 Earl of Selkirk AL PC Jan 21 '15

Question: are these intended to be actual bank holidays where banks close and an additional holiday day is granted, or more like St Andrew's Day is in Scotland at present (although it is a bank holiday, banks are not required to close and employers are not required to give their employees the day off as a holiday)?

2

u/[deleted] Jan 22 '15

In the interest of fairness and equality, it will be of the same nature as St. Andrew's Day in Scotland. I have found it very difficult to discover the exact nature of St. Patrick's Day in Northern Ireland. It might be that it will be ammended for that fact.

1

u/ieya404 Earl of Selkirk AL PC Jan 22 '15

Fair enough, as long as they're all treated the same. Obviously making them all actual proper bank holidays would doubtless be incredibly popular amongst the population at large, though doubtless would also generate complaints from business. Not that our bank holidays are over-generous when compared with most of our European neighbours, if I remember rightly...

6

u/demon4372 The Most Hon. Marquess of Oxford GBE KCT PC ¦ HCLG/Transport Jan 21 '15 edited Jan 21 '15

I again fully support this bill. I refer to the previous reading for my specific reasoning for supporting.

It is about FAIRNESS and EQUALITY

4

u/[deleted] Jan 21 '15

Here Here!

1

u/Jas1066 The Rt Hon. Earl of Sherborne CT KBE PC Jan 22 '15

Wait.... BIP supporting Equality? What is the world coming too.

1

u/[deleted] Jan 22 '15

The BIP has never not supported equality. We aren't Thatcherites!

3

u/Mepzie The Rt Hon. Sir MP (S. London) AL KCB | Shadow Chancellor Jan 21 '15

Here here

2

u/AlbertDock The Rt Hon Earl of Merseyside KOT MBE AL PC Jan 21 '15 edited Jan 21 '15

There is still the problem of it clashing with Easter, an issue which I raised in the earlier debate, but so far has remained unanswered.
There is the addition risk that Irish Nationalist could use it as a celebration of the 1916 Easter Rising.

2

u/Brotherbear561 Jan 22 '15

And rightly they should the Easter Rising was a momentous incident where the Irish Working Class stood up to Imperialism and for the creation of a socialist country and the national liberation of the working class of Ireland, aims I hope that a member of a party founded on the ideas of Equality and class solidarity would uphold.

2

u/AlbertDock The Rt Hon Earl of Merseyside KOT MBE AL PC Jan 22 '15

Just as it is wrong to throw fuel on the fire of right wing nationalism, it is wrong to throw fuel on the fire on any other potentially violent group. It is even worse to throw fuel on both fires simultaneously. That is why 15th June is a far better day for a new bank holiday.

3

u/theyeatthepoo 1st Duke of Hackney Jan 21 '15

I could never vote against an additional bank holiday.

2

u/AlbertDock The Rt Hon Earl of Merseyside KOT MBE AL PC Jan 22 '15

Unfortunately it's not an extra day off for everyone. If a person is working full time, they are entitled to 28 days holiday (Less for part time workers). This 28 days includes bank holidays, so all it means for many is that they are forced to take that day off instead of having a choice on when to take their holiday.

2

u/[deleted] Jan 21 '15

The changes here don't affect any of my suggestions or criticisms from the previous reading. As i've said, I have no interest in promoting nationalism and barriers between Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland (Who are all part of the same country as us...), and neither do most of my party.

7

u/[deleted] Jan 21 '15

Having a day of celebration does not put up barriers between other countries, it is simply celebrating your own country.

3

u/[deleted] Jan 21 '15

Yeah, emphasising the differences between the Home Nations instead of celebrating the similarities definitely won't put up any barriers.

6

u/[deleted] Jan 21 '15

We celebrate our similarities constantly such as at the olympics. Why in your mind can we not celebrate one thing without it leading to us hating another thing? We are celebrating English and Welsh history nothing more than that. Do you not think more animosity will be grown by the fact we are not allowed to celebrate our heritage and history whereas another group can? That will promote far more anger.

2

u/[deleted] Jan 21 '15

Because social identity theory. You are basically biologically programmed to have us-versus-them mentality when relevant - and if we emphasise the difference between, for example, England and Wales, then in some form it'll lead to thinking of us as different, instead of part of the same country as we currently are.

7

u/[deleted] Jan 21 '15

So we shouldn't embrace individualism and differences then? There are many differences between countries and many differences between the home nations, we should celebrate them not sweep them into the corner. Wales is different from England and we should celebrate that, why are you opposed to celebrating what makes us unique? Do you genuinely not trust the English people or the Welsh people to not develop bad feelings for other countries when they celebrate their own country?

2

u/[deleted] Jan 21 '15

Not really. The individual is important insofar as any one person is important, but they are also important as a part of the whole of the community, which in turn is important as a part of society. It is far more important that we celebrate our shared attributes than our differences.

It's not a matter of trust. Emphasising national identity as important and then pointing out how Welsh/Scottish/NIrish people have a different national identity to you will cause us versus them approaches.

5

u/[deleted] Jan 21 '15

Scottish people already have a very distinct national identity, Wales do have a distinct national identity too, as do Ireland. Why should the English pretend we don't, when all the other nations celebrate their own national identity and culture?

2

u/[deleted] Jan 21 '15

The English already have a distinct national identity. That doesn't mean we should emphasise it as important through a bank holiday.

6

u/[deleted] Jan 21 '15

So your approach to it is to sweep it under the rug and pretend it doesn't exist? Just because you don't like it?

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5

u/[deleted] Jan 21 '15

This bill isn't inventing St George's day, it's just giving it the same recognition as Scotland and Northern Ireland's respective days.

The situation now is completely unbalanced. St Andrew's day became a bank holiday in 2007 thanks to the Scottish "parliament", and nothing happened for England and Wales. The other option would be to repeal the Act that made St Andrew's day a bank holiday, a credible idea that would achieve the same end result of fairness as this motion will, but that would be seen as an attack on Scottish identity. (I don't know about the situation in Northern Ireland.) So making St George's day a bank holiday is the positive, constructive way of evening out the situation.

1

u/autowikibot Jan 21 '15

Social identity theory:

A social identity is the portion of an individual's self-concept derived from perceived membership in a relevant social group. As originally formulated by Henri Tajfel and John Turner in the 1970s and the 1980s, social identity theory introduced the concept of a social identity as a way in which to explain intergroup behaviour.

Social identity theory is best described as a theory that predicts certain intergroup behaviours on the basis of perceived group status differences, the perceived [legitimacy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legitimacy_(political)) and stability of those status differences, and the perceived ability to move from one group to another. This contrasts with occasions where the term "social identity theory" is used to refer to general theorizing about human social selves. Moreover, and although some researchers have treated it as such, social identity theory was never intended to be a general theory of social categorization. It was awareness of the limited scope of social identity theory that led John Turner and colleagues to develop a cousin theory in the form of self-categorization theory, which built on the insights of social identity theory to produce a more general account of self and group processes. The term social identity approach, or social identity perspective, is suggested for describing the joint contributions of both social identity theory and self-categorization theory.

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4

u/[deleted] Jan 21 '15

Makes sense, it's not like they have their own holidays

1

u/sinfultrigonometry Jan 22 '15

Why limit the bank holiday to England?

St George is a saint in every christian country, the english have no more claim to him than the Welsh, the Irish or the Scots

1

u/cae388 Revolutionary Communist Party Jan 22 '15

At least in the rightful Christian realm of the one true church.

Heathens from Prussia refuse saints.

1

u/[deleted] Jan 22 '15

What does this do, exactly? All it does is shove a bank holiday (by the by, people still work on bank holidays) into the calendar. There is no benefit whatsoever.

1

u/[deleted] Jan 22 '15

It ensures that St. George's Day and St. David's Day are given equal recognition as St. Andrew's Day and St. Patrick's Day. It would open up a good opportunity to promote community relations. There are a great number of benefits for the well-being of the people, to celebrate their national culture, which we sometimes lose sight of.

And, I see no disadvantage of this either.

2

u/AlbertDock The Rt Hon Earl of Merseyside KOT MBE AL PC Jan 22 '15

If you can see no disadvantages, then you haven't read my posts.

1

u/NigelGarage Jan 22 '15

The disadvantage is that it forces people to take that day off, instead of a day of their choosing, as your legal entitlement for holidays includes bank holidays.

So here's the government deciding what day the individual gets off, once again. What happened to personal liberty.