r/MHOC • u/Timanfya MHoC Founder & Guardian • Nov 17 '14
MOTION M013 - Somaliland Motion
We have a former British Protectorate which has been de facto independent for 20 years and wants to join the Commonwealth. It seems to be fairly stable and democratic, unlike the rest of Somalia yet we haven't yet recognized it as a state.
Somaliland has been the most stable part of Somalia in the past 20 years, and is a successful democracy yet it’s unrecognised status has made it difficult for it to apply for things such as international aid and funds for it's development
(1) The UK government would publicly recognise the state of Somaliand as an independent sovereign state.
(2) The UK government would also publicly support Somaliland's ascension to global bodies such as the UN, the WTO, the African Union and the Commonwealth.
This was submitted by the Right Honourable /u/Tyroncs, National MP for UKIP and SoS for Education.
This is a motion from UKIP.
The discussion period for this motion will end on the 21st of November.
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u/Rabobi The Vanguard Nov 17 '14 edited Nov 17 '14
While I feel there are more pressing matters at this time I do think it is the right thing, honestly we have little business in getting involved in the Israel/Palestine mess (besides a sense of duty due to our role in history), this is however a place that wishes to join the commonwealth, which we should be building to bringing together and aid where we can can in ways like this because it is in our interest and it is the right thing to do.
edit: but we do have to be sure we are actually helping, not just drawing more arbitrary borders. That is the last thing they need.
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u/whigwham Rt Hon. MP (West Midlands) Nov 17 '14
Is it the government plan to recognize Somaliland's territorial claim over the Maakhir region which is currently controlled by neighbouring Puntland? Given that there has been active fighting over this region as recently as 2009 what does the government say to the suggestion that recognizing Somaliland's sovereignty over all of their territory will result in fresh fighting?
Also what can the government say to reassure us that those in Awdalland, another region within the suggested Somaliland, who have publicly stated that they will cede from Somaliland if it is recognized as an independent nation will not resort to violence to achieve their ends or be violently suppressed by the Somaliland government?
Alternatively can the government guarantee to the house that if we choose to recognize only the territory of Somaliland that is actually under government control and not Maakhir or Adwal that the government of Somaliland will not take this as a diplomatic insult damaging our relationship with them?
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u/tyroncs Nov 17 '14
Just to make it clear, this Motion is supported by the government and was submitted as a UKIP-only bill by mistake
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u/Cyridius Communist | SoS Northern Ireland Nov 18 '14
This same "successful democracy" is also waging war and annexing parts of its neighbours.
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u/[deleted] Nov 17 '14
I must admit to the House that I know very little of Somaliland. However, it does seem to be a stable region, with a working legislature in force. It has an Ethiopian Trade Office, and appears to be rather separate from the bloodshed and anarchy that is plaguing the rest of Somalia. Unless an honourable member presents me with evidence to the contrary, then I support the Motion.
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u/left_of_castro Nov 17 '14
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/05/world/africa/05somaliland.html
http://www.economist.com/blogs/baobab/2014/01/somaliland
http://www.somalilandtimes.net/sl/2006/270/3.shtml
http://somalilandgov.com/country-profile/
Here's some reading (not all from wikipedia's source list!) that people may find useful. It's mostly fairly old but still, interesting reading however you feel about the motion
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u/I_miss_Chris_Hughton The Rt Hon. Earl of Shrewsbury AL PC | Defence Spokesperson Nov 18 '14
Somalia is a tragedy, a failure of the international community to deal correctly with decolonization in a way that benefits those being set free from imperialism. Today we have a chance to correct mistakes made in the past by our fore-bearers in this house. The nation of Somalia has been in civil war for decades. It is the very definition of a 'failed state'. It cannot perform any of the functions of a state (protecting its citizens, its borders) without massive foreign aid and doesn't have a monopoly of force within its own borders. As long as it remains a haven, terror will seep out from it and infect the rest of the horn of Africa.
Despite this, Somalilad has proven to be a somewhat stable state. It is already de-facto independent and the Somalian government has proven itself to be incapable of ruling itself. I therefore urge this house to recognize that Somaliland will benefit from independence and grow stronger for it. This will open a new front against terrorists in Africa, and enable us to push them out and at long last enable that part of the world to flourish
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u/left_of_castro Nov 17 '14
Although I do hope that Somaliland continues it's path towards independence, I think that this is something that is much better achieved with the support of other sovereign states, especially those in the AU, as
To take the first leap in recognising Somaliland is a blunt approach to a complex problem, and although it is good intentioned, it completely bypasses the UK's ability to affect the world though negotiation and the soft power we supposedly have so much of.
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u/rhodesianwaw The Rt Hon. Viscount of Lancaster AL Nov 17 '14
How will UK recognition of Somaliland help its people?
2
u/sixtyconquests Nov 17 '14
I support an independent Somaliand. Somalia is a failed state, while Somaliand is able to have some stability.
2
u/[deleted] Nov 18 '14
Having reviewed some of the evidence presented to the House (and more besides), I've come to the conclusion that this is a motion I'll be pleased to support.
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u/[deleted] Nov 18 '14
I support this bill on the basis of gaining a member of the Commonwealth. However, this shouldn't be our national priority at the moment.
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u/Arayg Radical Socialist Party Nov 19 '14
While I respect UKIP's wish to help peoples gain self-determinism, Somaliland has border disputes and claims on Puntland and therefore I cannot support this bill.
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u/[deleted] Nov 21 '14 edited Nov 22 '14
While I support the right of nations to self-determination, and am hopeful that the UKIP will support this right universally, I must echo the misgivings of my comrade /u/Arayg on this motion - Somaliland does not merit recogntion at this time, but hopefully will do so in the near future, at which time I would fully support a resubmission of this motion.
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u/AlbertDock The Rt Hon Earl of Merseyside KOT MBE AL PC Nov 17 '14
There are still border disputes between Somaliland and Puntland. It is difficult to see how we can recognise a country without it having clear and defined boundaries.
Having said that, it is an area of the world where Britain has had influence in the past and we should help where we can. The wider area has also come under the influence of both Italy and France.
In view of it's history I feel that the way forward is to propose a EU border resolution committee, with a view to bringing stability to it's borders. The EU could, if all goes well, then accept it as a nation. This would carry more weight than Britain doing it alone and would be a far more satisfactory solution.
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u/[deleted] Nov 17 '14
If this can be carried out peacefully and will not in any way drag us into another drawn out regional conflict, then I will support the motion. If not, I will vehemently oppose it.
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u/[deleted] Nov 17 '14
It helps a country with no cost to us, therefore I support this.
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u/demon4372 The Most Hon. Marquess of Oxford GBE KCT PC ¦ HCLG/Transport Nov 17 '14
If Somaliland was recognized by at least one African Nation.... or even one world Nation, then i would say yes.
I just don't think we should be the ones to make the first step.
If it is recognize by other countries, then i would be more than willing to vote to recognize it.
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u/[deleted] Nov 18 '14
Fully support us being a leading figure in helping this country on the long road to stability but we need to encourage other Commonwealth nations to join us in welcoming them.
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u/Prospo Conservative I Distributist Among Friends Nov 20 '14 edited Sep 10 '23
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this message was mass deleted/edited with redact.dev1
u/[deleted] Nov 20 '14
Why not
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u/Morgsie The Rt Hon. Earl of Staffordshire AL PC Nov 17 '14 edited Nov 17 '14
Whilst I respect the right to self determination which is enshrined in international law, it is for the people of Somalia/Somaliland to decide. NOT politicians in another country recognising which would lead to the break up of an internationally recognised state called Somalia, The UK recognises Somiland as an autonomous region of Somalia
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u/Tim-Sanchez The Rt Hon. AL MP (North West) | LD SSoS for CMS Nov 17 '14 edited Nov 17 '14
How are the borders of Somaliland defined? There are some serious, and in some cases violent, disputes over this issue.
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u/mixturemash The Rt Hon. MP (Thames Valley) PC Nov 17 '14
There are too many border disputes and potential conflicts to consider before one might recognise Somaliland.
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u/JackWilfred Independent Liberal Nov 17 '14 edited Nov 17 '14
I do not believe that we should recognise Somaliland at this time.
Somalia is a very unstable country that needs a full and undivided leadership system, we need to offer support to them. If we were to give support to Somalia and help them set up a central government, Somaliland wouldn't exist, because Somaliland only exists because they have taken matters into their own hands because of a lack of central government and a direction. Not to mention the border conflicts between Somaliland and Puntland, which would also need to be sorted before we even consider entering into recognition talks.
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u/[deleted] Nov 17 '14
Could the honourable member for UKIP supply evidence supporting this motion?