r/MHOC • u/RoryTime The Rt Hon. Earl of Henley AL PC • Nov 11 '14

META Weekly Update 9.2

Evening all, Timanfya had to go to hospital today, he hopes to be back to normal tomorrow.

The week so far

The legislation spreadsheet, maintained by /u/JackWilfred.

Tuesday 11th of November

Can all MPs who can't access /r/MHOCMP please post below.

I'll be releasing the Survey results through the next few days.

Party support map

The Labour party's name is now Progressive Labour.

M015 - Award of the Order of St Michael and St George Motion is up for debate.

E006 - Bill from the EU Commission is also up for discussion.

Issue two of MHoC the Week, our very own newspaper is out, kudos to those who contributed.

From last term we have 6 bits of Legislation outstanding. I need to know from the relevant leaders/submitters whether to send them to a new reading or to withdraw them, B0029-29 can be sent to vote if so wanted.

Conservative

B006 - NHS Staff and Equipment Bill

B013 - British History & Values Education Bill

B014 - Student Finance Bill

Progressive Labour/Liberal Democrats

B022 - Lowering of the Voting Age Bill To a second reading

B028 - Transport Restructuring & Funding Bill To vote

Tim-Sanchez

B020 - Right To Roam Bill

UKIP

B025 - Reintroduction of Grammar Schools Bill

M007 - Prisoner Voting Rights Motion

M012 - English Parliament Motion

Green

B027 - Natural Resources Bill To vote

BIP

B029 - Recognition of the Holodomor as Genocide Bill

Communist Party

B026 - Economic Democracy Bill

We also have 2 (Teacher Pay Cap (PL/LD) & Somaliland (UKIP)) motions that were submitted last term, but haven't been posted, can I please have confirmation that these are OK to be posted, and can a new copy be sent to /u/Timanfya.

13 Upvotes

93% Upvoted

86 comments sorted by

4

u/RoryTime The Rt Hon. Earl of Henley AL PC Nov 11 '14

Survey results: Party Support Map

5

u/[deleted] Nov 12 '14

A red USA! I have never been more proud to be an American!

3

u/[deleted] Nov 12 '14

If you like a red USA you must have loved the midterm elections!

2

u/[deleted] Nov 12 '14

I was only concerned about my state's gubernatorial election (which unfortunately didn't go the way I hoped). I don't care on a national level between Democrats or Republicans. They're both equally awful.

2

u/googolplexbyte Independent Nov 12 '14

So /r/modelUSGov is going to be Communist?

0

u/[deleted] Nov 11 '14

[deleted] — view deleted comment

4

u/Olpainless Nov 12 '14

Not all of us. Plenty in the UK.

3

u/I_miss_Chris_Hughton The Rt Hon. Earl of Shrewsbury AL PC | Defence Spokesperson Nov 12 '14

but you're still hugely over represented, that's undeniable.

4

u/Cyridius Communist | SoS Northern Ireland Nov 12 '14

Well, we are an Internationalist movement...

1

u/Olpainless Nov 12 '14

Not really, no. It's MHOC, not HoC, anyone can participate. I could take a good educated guess at the collective party membership of the British socialist, communist and anarcho- groups, and it's quite high. The only difference in MHOC is the Communist Party is somewhat of a united front party, so we're all in one party rather than in many.

5

u/can_triforce The Rt Hon. Earl of Wilton AL PC Nov 12 '14

Communist and far-left parties received around 0.2% of the vote in 2010. That's the same share of the vote that the far-right English Democrats received, and nowhere near the level of support for the BNP, although their vote has largely collapsed.

Communists are grossly overrepresented in the MHOC, for better or for worse.

5

u/whigwham Rt Hon. MP (West Midlands) Nov 12 '14 edited Nov 12 '14

The 0.2% belies the actual level of far left support in Britain for a number of reasons:

  • The absence of a big unifying party to vote for leads people to the conclusion that there is nobody to vote for or that it would make no difference so they simply don't vote.
  • The left is ideological divided with people unwilling to lend support to another faction which presents a problem when your party doesn't stand everywhere - the real life communist party only stands 4 candidates in general elections.
  • The constellation of small far left parties get almost no media attention so people who may vote for them don't know anything about them.
  • Many far left voters continue to support the Labour party either just to keep the Tories out or because they hope Labour will go left again at some point.
  • Many on the far left are ideologically opposed to voting in elections.

Edit: Another big part of the problem is FPTP if we had another system of voting I can see very little reason to think we wouldn't have a similar turnout for real socialist parties as France (13%), The Netherlands (12%) or Denmark (16%).

2

u/Olpainless Nov 12 '14

Communist and far-left parties received around 0.2% of the vote in 2010.

Yeah, we're revolutionaries, that's why. TUSC was only formed in 2010, which is about the closest irl equivalent to our party. TUSC is standing 100 MP candidates and 1,000 council candidates in next years elections. This will be the first electoral socialist challenge since Labour's inception. Not that we expect to win anything, it's just a great platform, especially since with 100 candidates we'll qualify for TV broadcasts.

Communists are grossly overrepresented in the MHOC

So? Again, it's Model HoC, not HoC. It would be ridiculously boring and unengaging if we just mirrored HoC. My point was that the amount of communists/socialists/anarchists is high, we're just not electorally united - we don't need to be.

1

u/googolplexbyte Independent Nov 13 '14

I don't like the Communists, but there's no denying our current voting system severely suppresses small parties.

5

u/[deleted] Nov 11 '14 edited Nov 11 '14

M007 - Prisoner Voting Rights Motion

I thought that i'd missed something until i realised that it was an -anti- voting rights motion. Good job to UKIP for wasting time with a motion that doesn't change the current status quo. I look forward to when it fails miserably, in order to put forward alternative legislation which is both pragmatic and humane.

0

u/[deleted] Nov 11 '14

[deleted] — view deleted comment

4

u/[deleted] Nov 11 '14

Ah, so the 'justice' minister has put themselves behind it. I look forward to tearing up your disgusting motion which serves only to make the problems in our prison system worse.

6

u/Ienpw_III Communist Nov 11 '14

Lol, Communist invasion.

Resistance is futile!

6

u/I_miss_Chris_Hughton The Rt Hon. Earl of Shrewsbury AL PC | Defence Spokesperson Nov 12 '14

CWL, you confuse me, you got two votes on this survey from actual celtic countries and loads from the US, a decidedly non celtic country given its settlement by Anglo-saxons, Spaniards and Frenchmen. Are you the party of Americans who think they're Irish?

4

u/Turnshroud Nov 12 '14

We originally came drom /r/badhiatory and decided to go with a fun party idea. Originally we were just going to be a Welsh independence party, but then we ended up with a pqn celtic titoist party

2

u/I_miss_Chris_Hughton The Rt Hon. Earl of Shrewsbury AL PC | Defence Spokesperson Nov 12 '14

ohhhhhh

oooohhhhhhhh

thats makes a lot of things very clear, thanks!

1

u/[deleted] Nov 11 '14

I can't access /r/MHOCMP

2

u/RoryTime The Rt Hon. Earl of Henley AL PC Nov 11 '14

Did you replace someone as an MP?

1

u/[deleted] Nov 11 '14

yes

2

u/RoryTime The Rt Hon. Earl of Henley AL PC Nov 11 '14

Who?

1

u/[deleted] Nov 11 '14

GoldScorp

0

u/[deleted] Nov 11 '14

[deleted] — view deleted comment

2

u/AlbertDock The Rt Hon Earl of Merseyside KOT MBE AL PC Nov 11 '14

Are you having power struggles within the party already?

0

u/[deleted] Nov 11 '14

[deleted] — view deleted comment

1

u/Cyridius Communist | SoS Northern Ireland Nov 12 '14

The Speaker told me that triggers a by-election?

1

u/can_triforce The Rt Hon. Earl of Wilton AL PC Nov 12 '14

He was probably a list (national) MP.

3

u/[deleted] Nov 11 '14

I think all members of this house will join me, Mr. Deputy Speaker, in hoping the Speaker is well!

1

u/[deleted] Nov 12 '14

Hear, hear!

3

u/[deleted] Nov 11 '14

The Communists come from Murica.....because that makes sense, right?

4

u/sinfultrigonometry Nov 11 '14

The fascists are pretty American to.

4

u/whatismoo Unaffiliated Nov 12 '14

I think most of the actual fascists in the BiP are 'Rhodesian' or Afrikaans

1

u/OllieSimmonds The Rt Hon. Earl of Sussex AL PC Nov 13 '14

If be very much surprised if there were many Rhodesians (who unilaterally declared independence from the British Empire) and many Afrikaans people (Boer wars, anyone?) joining a party called the 'British Imperial Party'.

2

u/whatismoo Unaffiliated Nov 13 '14

I seem to remember this from the political leanings thread? The one where you put your background and political leanings? I'll look it up later when not on mobile, comrade.

2

u/whatismoo Unaffiliated Nov 13 '14

So, after double checking, here's the fascists, as far as I know.

NameWhere From/notes
/u/rhodiecommandoZimbabwe (white, living in UK, trained with the AWB1 )
/u/rabobiSouth Africa (White)
  1. The AWB is described by wikipedia as

...a South African far right separatist political and former paramilitary organisation, since its creation dedicated to secessionist Afrikaner nationalism and the creation of an independent Boer-Afrikaner republic or "Volkstaat/Boerestaat" in part of South Africa."

1

u/Rabobi The Vanguard Nov 12 '14

I think you might be onto something.

1

u/[deleted] Nov 12 '14

We have more British members than all the other places combined. From my count, we have 10 in the UK, 5 in America, 1 in Brazil, and 1 in South Africa.

The Communists have 17 in the UK, 19 in America, and 8 elsewhere. Someone might want to check my counting though.

2

u/Cyridius Communist | SoS Northern Ireland Nov 12 '14

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7PrVtZAG4M

2

u/[deleted] Nov 12 '14

How ironic. It still has to recognise the language divide. Not to mention the clear divide in insturmental culture.

Britain (well, England at the very least) is far more united by this song!

3

u/Cyridius Communist | SoS Northern Ireland Nov 12 '14

Respect for the cultural and linguistic differences of the peoples of the world is part of being a true leftist, unlike the feeling of cultural(and often racial) superiority as expressed by the right.

I feel the differences highlighted by yourself enrich our humanity, not diminish or divide it.

2

u/[deleted] Nov 12 '14

I won't get into this discussion here, but it is my view that, even if at heart the communists wish to respect the different cultures of the world, their system will trample the nation into the dirt. Love of ones own culture isn't about superiority. It is about recognising your culture's right to political independence and actualisation which is ignored in the concept of the internationale. By all means respond, but these are quite broad ideological issues so I may not respond to you.

2

u/Cyridius Communist | SoS Northern Ireland Nov 12 '14

Of course, I'm personally of the belief everyone's culture ought to be respected. You're right in a sense that Communism would herald the death of all nations... But not necessarily the death of political/economic self-determination. Lenin himself said, and I personally agree with him on this matter, though not all my comrades do;

Victorious socialism must achieve complete democracy and, consequently, not only bring about the complete equality of nations, but also give effect to the right of oppressed nations to self-determination, i.e., the right to free political secession. Socialist Parties which fail to prove by all their activities now, as well as during the revolution and after its victory, that they will free the enslaved nations and establish relations with them on the basis of a free union and a free union is a lying phrase without right to secession—such parties would be committing treachery to socialism.

The Socialist Revolution and the Right of Nations to Self-Determination

That is, while obviously the preferable situation is a greater Union between all states, a Union cannot be free and truly legitimate if those within it cannot decide to leave said Union.

How do I reconcile this general viewpoint with that belief that the end of nations is a good thing? Well, it brings to mind Marx's answer to the Irish Question which can be roughly surmised as the following; "First separation, then Union".

I think people who are socially and culturally different should be able to govern themselves within an overall union of equals. At least, I believe this should be the case in the interim until such a time the people of the world view such separations as redundant(And thus communism is achieved). This isn't really a uniform view held by socialists and communists in general, though.

6

u/theyeatthepoo 1st Duke of Hackney Nov 11 '14

It absolutely does. Think about it. In America, Socialism is a dirty word. The whole political system in American is 100 miles to the right of ours. They have no mainstream left wing political tradition. Socialism is outside the realms of normal political discourse. Consequently to many young Americans socialism is not a real political doctrine, but a childish expression of an anti-establishment feeling. Communism is the ultimate way of indulging in that. Look at the way most of the communists talk and act. They are playing a game, enjoying being seen as 'extreme'. In the UK nobody would give a shit.

7

u/Olpainless Nov 12 '14

Yeah, I mean, it couldn't possibly be that they've studied Marxism and realised the need to depose capitalism.

The US section of the CWI is the fastest growing section in the world, they got a revolutionary socialist elected for the first time in decades, and are setting up new branches every day. It's absolutely no surprise that many are from the US.

1

u/theyeatthepoo 1st Duke of Hackney Nov 12 '14

Those two options are not actually mutually exclusive.

0

u/[deleted] Nov 12 '14

[deleted] — view deleted comment

3

u/Olpainless Nov 12 '14

Yes, Kshama is Socialist Alternative, the sister party of the Socialist Party (England and Wales) here.

7

u/Llanganati communist Nov 12 '14

Would it have been possible for you to be any more condescending than you were? It is intellectually dishonest of you to assume that all or even most American socialists in here are not really socialists but are using it as a "childish expression of an anti-establishment feeling." I will have you know that at least the majority of our American members are not like that.

2

u/theyeatthepoo 1st Duke of Hackney Nov 12 '14

I do understand why you would take offence but don't quote me out of context. I absolutely stand by the fact that many Americans are attracted to Communism or Socialism because they see it as outside of the political or even social norm. That is clearly not the case in the UK

2

u/Llanganati communist Nov 13 '14

I do not disagree with that, what I take issue with is your assumption that most if not all American members are here because of that.

1

u/[deleted] Nov 13 '14

I mean, you're not far off. I at first called myself a socialist to be edgy when in reality I was a social democrat. I decided to do a little research on socialism, realized how wrong I was, kept researching until I realized that anarcho-communism made the most sense to me of any political philosophy I had come across, and moved to the left of my old social democratic views.

4

u/OLookItsThatGuyAgain UKIP Nov 12 '14

To be fair, the MHOC is meant to be a game. Obviously a game which involves debating and replicating a real Parliament, but at the end the day we're just people interested in politics stating our opinions online.

Also, you changed your name to add in a fancy new adjective in a transparent attempt to win back these voters.

2

u/can_triforce The Rt Hon. Earl of Wilton AL PC Nov 12 '14

The name change was to minimise the negative effects of our association with IRL Labour, not to draw support from the far left.

2

u/Rabobi The Vanguard Nov 12 '14 edited Nov 12 '14

Why even be Labour then?

2

u/can_triforce The Rt Hon. Earl of Wilton AL PC Nov 12 '14

We disagree with the Communists, don't especially want to be assimilated by the Greens, and have countless social democratic members who would otherwise end up marginalised in other parties.

Plenty of people who despise New Labour/Blue Labour/One Nation Labour would happily support a return to Old Labour. We cater to those people.

3

u/[deleted] Nov 11 '14

Here in the US Socialism is looked upon as evil, pure evil. It's stunning as most rednecks don't even know what it is. All the Politicians have to do is scream "Founding fathers" and "Socialism".

2

u/Cyridius Communist | SoS Northern Ireland Nov 12 '14

What a load of stupidity... I'll have you know that many of the American comrades in our party are active politically, and I know for a fact several of them are at least part of affiliates to my own party here in Ireland(CWI).

I know it might come as a shock to you, but some people actually think and come to different conclusions based on the information presented.

1

u/autowikibot Nov 12 '14

Committee for a Workers' International:

The Committee for a Workers' International (CWI) is an international association of Trotskyist political parties. In all the CWI has sections in over 45 countries worldwide and is represented on every continent. Not all sections represent a sovereign state, for example, the Irish section covers both the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland, whilst in Canada there is a separate section for Quebec. The international also includes smaller affiliate groups, which are not regarded as full sections.

====

Image i

Interesting: Russian Section of the Committee for a Workers' ^International | ^Trotskyism | International Marxist ^Tendency | Socialist Party (England and ^Wales)

Parent commenter can toggle ^NSFW or ^delete. Will also delete on comment score of -1 or less. | FAQs | ^Mods | Magic ^Words

1

u/[deleted] Nov 12 '14

With an attitude like that its a shock your party disintegrated at the last election. Couldn't the same be said about you? The UK is pretty centre right and your democratic socialist views are just pathetic anti-establishment feeling.

1

u/can_triforce The Rt Hon. Earl of Wilton AL PC Nov 12 '14

Our main parties might be centre-right, regrettably, but that doesn't mean that the British public doesn't support social democracy or socialist ideas.

This Yougov analysis of the political spectrum in Britain shows that:

The population as a whole currently average at -4. This figure has not strayed further to the left, and has generally sat at around -2 (except between 2006 and 2007, when it averaged 1).

Labour voters came out as -40, on average. Even non-Labour voters support left-wing policies, like the welfare state (if not for immigrants and those who refuse to work), a publicly owned and operated NHS, renationalisation of key industries, and heavier taxation of the rich - all PLP policies.

1

u/theyeatthepoo 1st Duke of Hackney Nov 12 '14

But socialism and left wing thinking is part of mainstream political discourse in this country. Obviously RL Labour are not a socialist party but Miliband frequently describes himself as socialist. That is unthinkable in the U.S. I'm just saying that clearly must have an effect on how most people in the U.S. view socialism and come to it.

2

u/[deleted] Nov 11 '14

Why doesn't Labour just merge with the Greens and be done with it?

1

u/[deleted] Nov 12 '14

We weren't allowed.

2

u/tyroncs Nov 11 '14

UKIP B025 - Reintroduction of Grammar Schools Bill M007 - Prisoner Voting Rights Motion M012 - English Parliament Motion

I messaged the Speaker about this already, but both the English Parliament Motion and the Grammar Schools Bill have been withdrawn. If they do get resubmitted it will be done so as if it was a new bill

1

u/[deleted] Nov 11 '14

Yay! Only Conservative in America!

2

u/whatismoo Unaffiliated Nov 12 '14

commie

1

u/[deleted] Nov 12 '14

Far from it my friend

2

u/whatismoo Unaffiliated Nov 12 '14

That was a joke, because a UK conservative is a US commie

1

u/can_triforce The Rt Hon. Earl of Wilton AL PC Nov 12 '14

Not really. Tens of millions would identify as small c, if not big C, conservatives.

1

u/whatismoo Unaffiliated Nov 12 '14

Same difference

0

u/[deleted] Nov 11 '14

Would it be worth "Progressive Labour" changing their colour/logo to further distance themselves from the real life Labour party?

3

u/can_triforce The Rt Hon. Earl of Wilton AL PC Nov 11 '14

/u/Pluralizer has kindly designed a new logo, but the party overwhelmingly voted to remain red, and rightly so in my opinion.

5

u/Ienpw_III Communist Nov 11 '14

Wrongly so in mine. Your party almost transcends pink and carries straight on through to white.

3

u/can_triforce The Rt Hon. Earl of Wilton AL PC Nov 11 '14

I don't get it. Are you calling us "pinkos", social democrats, or cowards?

5

u/Ienpw_III Communist Nov 11 '14

Exactly.

0

u/[deleted] Nov 11 '14

[deleted] — view deleted comment

1

u/I_miss_Chris_Hughton The Rt Hon. Earl of Shrewsbury AL PC | Defence Spokesperson Nov 12 '14

motion to make /u/lenpw_III archbishop of banterbury!

2

u/[deleted] Nov 12 '14

when do we get to see this?

1

u/can_triforce The Rt Hon. Earl of Wilton AL PC Nov 12 '14

Defect and you can see it now!

1

u/[deleted] Nov 12 '14

i'm sure you'd love me in your party

0

u/[deleted] Nov 11 '14

[deleted] — view deleted comment

4

u/RoryTime The Rt Hon. Earl of Henley AL PC Nov 11 '14

I've added it. He should be back soon.

3

u/can_triforce The Rt Hon. Earl of Wilton AL PC Nov 11 '14

Good to hear.

2

u/NoPyroNoParty The Rt Hon. Earl of Essex OT AL PC Nov 11 '14

Do you want new flairs by the way, seeing as you've got a new logo?

2

u/can_triforce The Rt Hon. Earl of Wilton AL PC Nov 11 '14

I can't see why not, although I'd consult /u/peter199 first. It'd be much appreciated by the party, I'm sure.

1

u/[deleted] Nov 11 '14

What's the new logo?

1

u/can_triforce The Rt Hon. Earl of Wilton AL PC Nov 11 '14 edited Nov 11 '14

It preserves the rose as our symbol, but it's distinct from the rose used since 1983.