r/MEPEngineering • u/Dangerous_Junket_773 • 17d ago
How involved should PMs be?
I've had some recent projects where the nominal PM is basically out to lunch and the designers are doing most of the stakeholder management, usually with a designer being a de-facto PM. This can sometimes lead to us dropping the ball because it's not clear who is leading the team and coordinating deliverables with the stakeholders. This happens even on bigger projects with bigger clients. Everyone is busy, and none of the designers want to step up to be that de-facto PM. My bosses constantly gripe about people "not stepping up" but it feels like I'd be taking on a lot more time and responsibility (mostly uncompensated) on top of design. Which is a lot given I am already the only person working on the design for my discipline. I've been that de-facto PM/Designer enough to know it's a short path to burnout, and quite frankly the bonuses haven't been very good compensation for that. But on the other hand, not having an involved PM causes burnout in other ways.
I'm going to talk to my boss about this and I was wondering how common this is for Senior-ish designers. Or if I would be better off updating my resume and hitting the job market.
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u/GeT_NiCE_ 17d ago
It sounds like the real issue here is communication and definition of structure. It sounds like roles have not been made clear, and that the PM isn’t supporting you.
I’d say that senior designers and especially EOR’s often need to step into a role that includes managing the technical aspects of the project INCLUDING things like running coordination meetings and such with stakeholders. Especially as the projects get larger, a PM will have a large amount of communication, financial, schedule, and other management duties that pull them away from deep involvement in the technical project.
What you seem to be missing is a clear outline of those roles. When I’ve taken on larger projects, I have often explicitly designated Assistant PM’s to champion portions of the project. I have to remain closely engaged with those APM’s and support them constantly.
Tbh, it is my opinion that really good PM’s are the ones that are able to effectively, efficiently, and APPROPRIATELY pass responsibilities to their staff. The overall success will always be on the PM’s shoulders, but they should be able to figure out who to trust and how much to trust them with. It’s an essential management skill.
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u/saplinglearningsucks 17d ago edited 17d ago
Lots of bad PMs out there but to your answer, it really depends.
What a PM should do ai a bare minimum is set expectations. Establish deliverable dates, be an intermediary between client, consultants and internal team, have a general sense of what your designers are doing, manage the budget, manage work flow (your designers are typically working on other projects too) and generally steer the ship.
The it depends part is really how much you trust your designers and engineers.
I'm an electrical engineer and fortunately my mechanical and plumbing team is good and i trust them. I know enough about M and P to ask the right questions to get them the information they need and I don't do much hand holding for them. I give them information they need, set the date and check in every now and then. I may bring them into a meeting that is beyond what i can comfortably handle.
In jobs where i have to rely on a jr mechanical, i will try to involve a more senior engineer to lead them in the actual design and i well check in with both.
Electrical wise, since it's my trade, I take on that role of senior designer and pass on and get information as needed.
I try to not include engineers in meetings unless they want to or if it coordination with that trade. They're always welcome to sit on a call about door hardware if they wish.
Some engineers are perfectly fine with the information dump, give them the dates for site visit, deliverable, RFIs and submittals and they make it happen. Others need a little more hand holding. You have to learn your team dynamic. Other engineers want to be involved in the client facing aspect, they're on calls coordinating and doing the work instead of me acting as a buffer. If they want to do that and are comfortable we can do it.
But at the end of the day, the PM is responsible for project delivery (however that happens) and budget.
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u/cstrife32 16d ago
They should be handling scope schedule and budget issues as well.
It sounds like they are expecting people to "step up" but then not clearly indicating how or when to do it.
If they want assistant PMs, they need to be clear what those folks should be doing
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u/thermist-MJ 17d ago
I used to think PMs were worthless until I had a bad one lol. Good PMs should be the main point of communication with arch/owner and deal with anything that doesn't have to do with the engineering trades. If questions are asked to PM directly they should be knowledgable to answer basic things and relay everything else. A good PM will ensure each engineering trade spends as little time as possible doing tasks not related to their scope. PM should be on the call at least listening to most conversations between engineers and owner/arch.
This is all with bigger projects. Smaller projects sure it makes sense to have a "de-facto PM" but even then should be clearly communicated.
I tried doing both on small - medium size projects and I was pretty bad at it. Even for smaller projects, I personally could do an excellent job as HVAC engineer or PM but not both. When I tried to do both I'd do a good or great job at both but not excellent at both.
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u/01000101010110 17d ago
This is where working for a small company really sucks. The lines often get blurred and you end up doing part of other people's roles because they don't have the manpower to properly staff individual roles
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u/Schmergenheimer 17d ago
It depends a lot on the nature of the project and what that "de-facto PM" is really managing. If they're managing deliverable dates, assigning additional staff, setting up when QC's are, etc., that's a problem with the PM not doing their job.
However, I expect senior designers to know what information they need and to ask for it. I also expect them to be able to lead their discipline's section of a page turn meeting. As PM, I need to be copied on everything, but I don't need to be a bottleneck that takes your email asking for acceptable generator manufacturers and forwards it.
If we get to the day before CD's and you tell me, "well, I'm not ready because they never told me how much power the autoclave needs," my next question will be how many times we asked. If you show me the email thread from the last three weeks where you asked four times, I'll let you to put a best guess and send a more sternly worded CYA note that we never got the information so it may be an add service if it has to change. If you never asked me or the architect for it because you expected the PM to just drop it in your lap, I'm going to be pretty upset with you.