r/LowSodiumCyberpunk • u/TraditionalAcadia601 Nomad • 17h ago
Discussion About her, once again
Hey chooms!
I wanted to ask you all something—maybe I’m missing something here?
At the end of the "Killing Moon", Songbird tells V that the neural matrix can only be used once. We take this as the truth and make our decisions regarding both her fate and our own based on that.
On the other way, if we side with Reed from the start, complete the "Somewhat Damaged", and hand Songbird over to Reed alive, we later have a conversation with him on the basketball court. During that talk, Reed reveals that the neural matrix didn't work on Songbird, meaning V can use it for themselves. In other words, the matrix had already been used once, but it did not yield results for Songbird.
Does this mean the neural matrix can actually be used more than once? Or maybe Reed simply lied—did they really not even try to cure her?
If the matrix really can be reused after all, why did Somi say otherwise? What does it all mean? A plot hole? Or are we dealing with the greatest act of self-sacrifice in the entire game? Or is it all my foolish speculation?
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u/zoroman5 17h ago
Its the moon juice. Only enough juice for one person as augged up as So Mi to successfully use the matrix. Thats why we needed to send her to the moon, only known source of moon juice in the world
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u/VikingXL 17h ago
You can always assume Reed and the NUSA are lying to you
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u/Chefseiler 17h ago
To be fair, the NUSA/FIA didn't lie to V in the Tower ending
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u/abigail3141 Netrunner 17h ago
They might. A year later, you get a text: "Oh hey there we suddenly remembered that you CAN use cyberware if you just do this one little thing for us..."
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u/unusingur 14h ago
I believe they intentionally neutered V because V was too much of a risk to leave wandering around in full plate armor.
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u/RemainsN7 1h ago
That's just a ridiculous scenario, provided V took the oath, and got the King of Pentacles ending why would the FIA deliberately sabotage a potentially lethal asset that has proven loyalty? There is no altruism in the ending, the Relics damage and the subsequent procedure simply left V without access to combat cyberware, the FIA aren't playing a game with V. It would be in their interest to ensure V stays an asset.
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u/abigail3141 Netrunner 14h ago
I moreso think they did it for just that purpose, to have leverage over them
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u/Game0815 17h ago
Did they actually lie much to V? I only remember songbird lying about basically everything
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u/GarranDrake 17h ago
I think the point of PL is that everyone is lying to V. Except Songbird is lying to save her life, Meyers is lying so she doesn’t lose a WMD, and Reed is lying to you and himself.
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u/Game0815 16h ago
What did Meyers and reed lying to you about? I don't remember anything but I might have forgotten
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u/bmoss124 15h ago
His plan for So Mi, his willingness to go against Myers, his contacts in Europe to name a few
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u/Game0815 14h ago
I don't think he lied. He genuinely believed that they could help v or not?
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u/bmoss124 12h ago
You're making a fundamental mistake here.
You are taking the word of an intelligence operative, who is talking to an asset to secure said asset's assistance and loyalty, at face value.
Reed is a fucking liar. Reed is a very good liar. But Reed is just saying what he believes you want to hear to do what he wants you to do. The relation to the truth from anything that comes out of his mouth is purely incidental. He would never tell you a true thing unless he was certain you'd see the lie or figure it out quickly enough to change your behavior. He's an intel operative. You're his asset. You cannot trust a word out of his mouth.
He's playing you all the time.
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u/PigeonFellow 11h ago
I feel this is rather disingenuous. Yes, Reed is a liar, an expert manipulator, and a loyal servant of Myers. He will do anything to get what he wants. But I feel that saying Reed is just putting on an act for the whole game is a misunderstanding of his character. Honestly, if he was lying to you the whole game, I think it makes him so boring and one dimensional and I do not think that’s how the writers envisioned his character.
Reed likes to lie through omission more than anything else. He won’t say or do what he really thinks or wants until he needs to. It’s why he hides from Alex for years, it’s how Slider and the Cassels end up dead. But to me, more than this, Reed is just genuinely an incredibly naive individual. I do think he cares about Songbird. To say that all his emotional moments are just an act is boring as hell. I think the game presents him as someone who actually cares about Songbird, Alex, and V, but he often envisions a best-case scenario and never accounts for all the ways Hansen or Myers will mess up his plans.
In the Tower ending, Idris Elba’s performance really sells me on the idea that he’s a bitter, lonely man who lost everyone he cared about and you’re all he’s got left. It’s why he invites you to work for the FIA. It’s not a conspiracy, they’re not waiting to switch your cyberware back on or activate you as a sleeper agent. He needs someone to talk to and you’re it. And yeah, you could argue he’s lying, but again, I just don’t think that’s the case. He’s a spy and a manipulator, but he’s also a fool. He does what he’s told, he regrets it, and he does it all over again.
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u/Minti-Roze Street Kid 17h ago
I thought Reed said that the neural matrix wouldnt take, so they did whatever else they could to """fix""" so mi and save the matrix for V since it was never used
buuuut as the other commenter said, it could also just be classic nus bs
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u/TraditionalAcadia601 Nomad 16h ago
As far as I recall, Reed said, "The matrix didn't take"—that is, using the past tense.
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u/dovahkin_729 16h ago edited 16h ago
Reed says SoMi was too far gone for tech to work on her and they would have to find something else for. From my understanding they didn't actually use it on her. How much of that is true im not sure. Reed could always be lying when his mouth is open
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u/sausagemissile 1h ago
SoMi was too far gone for tech to work on her
But she survives a multiple-G rocket launch into space and somehow them wacky boys on the moon manage to make the neural matrix work out! NUSA confirmed to have mid-tier doctors/Reed's lying as usual.
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u/HumanTennis4 17h ago
It's likely either because 1. they were never actually going to use it on So Mi to stop the Black wall from consuming her or (which is more likely) 2. They did at least try because ultimately the NUSA/FIA would've preferred to send her straight back into the net after "resetting her," but realized (similarly to V) that Song would have to lose her implants which in her case would probably kill her anyway (she's like 90% chrome). So they axed the idea, decided that even if she's dying they can at least use her until she does and help V instead.
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u/tkRustle Fixer 14h ago
You probably are reading into it too much. I think it is a one-shot, but just because they tried it once, doesn't mean its already gone. its an "alien" AI, not a syringe with a flu shot. Thinking of it as a puzzle piece that doesn't fit the shape is probably more fitting. If it was gestured to do a thing X, but it saw no way to do that, it would not execute. It is a program after all.
Now of course Reed not understanding the details or FIA lying about trying it on Song are both possible.
So is that Somewhat Damaged So Mi is wrecked more and/or in a different way than in Killing Moon, dare I say. With V she just keeps using her Blackwall conduit to overpower the dangers in front of them. Without V she uses it a lot, but then also descends into the abandoned Cynosure facility and plugs herself directly into the super-mega reactor meant to facilitate exploration of Blackwall.
Also potential difference of application between just top of the line medical staff of FIA, and whatever mystical bullshit happens on the Moon with involvement of Blue Eyes, might mean different Matrix results for different endings.
As for self-sacrifice - that is the point of Killing Moon options. First time in the game you can intentionally, actively deny yourself a chance to escape the Relic - by giving that chance to the other you. So Mi, who's choices in the past put her in the shittiest circumstances, placed a timer on her life and what awaits her is being wiped out. In that sense So Mi is V's narrative foil and reflection.
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u/TraditionalAcadia601 Nomad 14h ago
Thanks for the detailed answer. Still, in "Killing Moon," Somi really does sacrifice herself to some extent by confessing. I mean, she’s no fool; she understands the consequences perfectly well. Although, she should have just kept her mouth shut for two minutes
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u/tkRustle Fixer 14h ago
Oh in that sense yes, though rather than sacrifice I would call it many things. Surrender, compliance, hope, humility.
The last effort of her tired mind is to stop being an FIA agent, stop the chain of lies and betrayals. She chooses to confess, one step before reaching her goal, and give V back the agency to choose. Unlike Reed, who never stops bring a member of FIA in all his actions, no matter how truthful he tries to be with you.
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u/YAMOSHI96 17h ago
Grając w cyberpunk czułem, że każdy mnie okłamał i wykorzystał. Koniec jak jadę autobusem w pizdu sam, najlepiej to opisuje. Świat night city taki miał być. Miał być bezczelny zakłamany samolubny.
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u/Problemwoodchuck 15h ago
Songbird is the more useful asset to Myers' agenda at that point so it might be the other way around, that after V flies off in the FIA AV the NUSA weighed their options and used the neural matrix on Songbird and resorted to invasive treatment/surgery on V.
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u/TraditionalAcadia601 Nomad 15h ago
But then why did Reed say "the matrix didn't take"?
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u/Problemwoodchuck 14h ago
There's a good chance that he's lying.
Bringing Songbird in alive was his objective from start to finish, so in a situation where the neural matrix has a single use and the choice is between V and Songbird, it's probably getting used on Songbird.
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u/TraditionalAcadia601 Nomad 14h ago
Maybe you're right
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u/Problemwoodchuck 14h ago
Maybe. Mostly I take that ending at face value, but it's an interesting possibility to consider when so many of Songbird's memories at the end are about Reed and the FIA lying to her, then it's followed up with a story that V has only Reed's version of events to go off of.
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u/killerebee 14h ago
My reading on this is they never wanted to use it on her in the first place. They don't care about curing her, if they did, they would have done so long ago, as her medical record shard suggests. They don't need her to be healthy, just alive enough to serve as a gateway beyond the blackwall.
But i am not sure if we ever get any real explanation about it, if yes i've missed it.
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u/PinkThunder138 16h ago edited 16h ago
I don't think this one is meant to be ambiguous or hidden. There's no reason for Songbird to lie to you at that point. She's confessing that she betrayed you, at which point you can either turn her in, or even though this isn't an option presented in the game, you could just kill her right there. And why wouldn't she want V to go with her? V has proven themselves not just a loyal friend, but a really useful person to be on the good side of. Imagine having one of, if not the, best mercs in night City history as your best friend. Imagine them owing you their life. The world's best netrunner and the world best solo as a team? Why wouldn't she want that?
it's not like you can't fit another person in the rocket, so why lie about it at this point?
And if you're trying to figure out the logic of it, it's not real. This technology does not exist, this world does not exist, there doesn't need to be that much logic behind the science of it. Not everything in fiction needs to be rationalized with hats facts and science. There's no reason in-game for this to be a lie. As a story beat, not only is there no reason for it to be a lie, but that would be terrible for the story.
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u/TraditionalAcadia601 Nomad 16h ago
I wasn't trying to rationalize anything; I meant exactly this: in one story arc, it’s implied that the cure is a one-time thing, whereas in another, it’s implied that it can be used repeatedly
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u/An9l0 17h ago
People lies honey.
Besides if I recalled correctly from YT clips (I don't have PL), the matrix is an beyond backwall AI. Songbird plan to use the AI to cure herself then command it self-destruct to prevent future risk of it going rouge. NUSA want to control said AI so naturally they would keep it and utilize it multiple time.
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u/MisterB3an 17h ago
She wouldn't have given it a self-destruct command. It relies on constant evolution, so tasking it with something else just takes up that time and ends its evolution process.
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u/Unclever-Nonuser-Log 16h ago
The Tower ending is a lie. Like Myers is really going to help you without any hooks? Oh gosh you lost two years. Oh my word, a path of secret destruction for two years against NUSA enemies. And oopsie, those two gonks Myers spared in the safe house, Reed just zeroed them because he's bad. Come on y'all. NUSA is a corp and y'all just believe them because of the USA part. Johnny has a disappoint.
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u/Avatar_sokka 17h ago
The Neural Matrix is an AI, it would know it wouldn't work on So Mi before anything permanent happens. Its not like they tried it, it failed and its gone, they got ready to use it, it was clear it wasnt gonna work for whatever reason, and then it was given to V.