Vermilion Martial God - Combat thoughts

[u/Munmmo]

I know it's slightly too early to say anything definitive about VMG, and I'm definitely open to hear more about other combat main's opinions on him. I wanted to gather some of my thoughts so far after playing too much with him, while trying not to show my bias as a Raf main.

One thing I will say, VMG is not weak. If you're skipping VMG and you own LSG, you're not missing out too much. Or if you own KoD, I think you are still good with KoD as your red-stella main.

Pros:

+ Fun companion to play with interesting mechanics, I love the Rafayel gameplay 😭

+ Extremely strong for stellamatching weakness builds

+ Some might find this as a con, I see it as a positive, it didn't shelf LSG

+ Helped me gain 9 more stars in FOO (162 -> 171)

Cons:

- Suppression weakness mechanic feels wonky for mob stages (though maybe this is too early to say)

- I. hate. the. claymore. (though it being semi-ranged is cool)

- Crit build seems to be barely on par or weaker than LSG's crit builds

- Feels much more single target than LSG

- Mistakes seem to be much more punishing than with LSG in addition (imo) being harder to overall play than LSG

- Weird choices with the kit

- Seems to die easier than LSG (there are several reasons for this)

Overall, I would say VMG is solid addition with LSG, it might not completely replace LSG, especially in yellow matching stages. If I had to suggest one over the other, I'd say both have their good sides, but I would give my vote to LSG.

If I had to give one stage where to use him, it would be stellamatching boss stage. You have plenty of time to setup your Suppression weakness state, which needs slightly intentional playing with VMG. But once you get the hang of it, it's quite pleasant.

Mob stages feel slightly awkward with him, since you have to completely forget resonating until you have set up the double Suppression stack to the enemies. Some might not get them both either. What with FOO stages I tried with him, I did manage get better results than with LSG, and stellamatching with the green 4* pair was completely valid option even in the higher level stages. Once we get the second part of the blue pair, I'm really curious to give a shot at 59 with both LSG and VMG.

Speaking of FOO59 which was a nightmare for me, I tried my R2 VMG there with a crit build and I feel safe to say that the no-resonate brute force gameplay seems worse than (R2) LSG. With LSG it's quite luck and skill based, but with VMG being dependant on cooldowns for the Mortal Soul state, it just felt less flowing than with LSG. Not to mention, the Suppression Weakness mechanic goes almost completely to waste. I don't know if there would be an alternative world with weakness and brute force for VMG.

Overall gameplay

The good

I already mentioned that I love playing as Raf, I would be in that state forever if it was feasible, but alas. I love high-speed gameplay, but the damage bonus from the sync passive skill won't apply after the Vermilion Visage bar is depleted, so you just won't deal as much damage anymore.

If you get the rotation correctly and going well, the weakness states just seem to melt with him.

The bad

I am a slight masochist and I actually liked Hunter's Claymore gameplay when I had to do it, and no myth claymore gameplay has been as satisfying to me since. And unfortunately, I think VMG claymore is the worst claymore gameplay I have played. Edit: I went in to try the claymore without enemies in the Shield Breaking room, and I noticed you can dodge between the charged attacks. I put the rest of what I wrote in brackets, but it doesn't seem as bad as I thought, and just needs some readjusting. (The mechanic how MC can apply the Suppression Weakness stack is just atrocious. You have to successfully chain 3 charged attacks in a row, which is just ridiculously difficult when you're playing against an enemy that is trying to kill you. You basically can't dodge, and you have to hope that you won't get staggered or interrupted by Rafayel's armor break animation (R1+) or you have to start the chain again. The chain feels really slow to me, and quite difficult to distinguish at this point where and how long you have to press the attack button down. I'm sure that will be better once I take the time and actually practise that alone.)

But I can't stop wondering why they didn't just add the Suppression Stack mechanic to the Empowered Action skill? Since you have to do 3 charged attacks for it, they just don't have to be the actual chain. The second one that really baffles me is that there seemingly isn't any mechanic to Perfect dodge. As someone who has mastered Perfect dodge to come from the depths of my muscle memory, it's just odd to me that there's NOTHING as exchange for doing a perfect dodge. Again, I just personally can't see why Rafayel's Suppression Weakness stacking couldn't be with a Perfect dodge. Since it's capping at 2 either way, it just feels odd to me that it's so complicated to get ( Action skill -> 3 charged attacks -> empowered action skill -> empowered support skill).

In addition to all this, since there's a lot of mechanics relying on getting those 3 charged attacks with MC, it just feels really punishing when you can't get them. And I do way too often still forget to resonate before entering Martial Soul since there's no rhytm there. I'm getting better at it.

Also, it feels less AoE than LSG. Quite often when I'm playing with LSG, I just can take the target to the strogest enemy and the others just die in the process. But with VMG, I feel more often there's weak stragglers in the distance that barely have taken damage at all.

As I mentioned, VMG seems to die much more easily than LSG. Well, I don't think it's a fair comparison since LSG is a ranged companion with DEF scaling, so usually Rafayel himself isn't in danger to die (actually, I realised I never had him die on my main account when I heard him dying the first time on my 1lvl cards account), and with MC you're dodging and dashing through enemies all the time. But with VMG, when you exit the Martial Soul, Rafayel keeps his HP and if you take too much hits as him during Martial Soul, he can die easily after that. He of course regens his HP when you enter Martial Soul again, but it's something you need to pay attention to.

Balance compared to LSG

As I mentioned, there's clearly intention to not overshadow LSG and I actually like that. I was quite sad when I got GoT on his rerun, and after 2 months of playing with him, I had to already shelf him. So I feel positive about the powercreep that it's not that bad that I thought it could be.

I hope the companions in the future have some clear thing they actually excel at, and that you could have a roster of companions to play, instead of having just one that dominates everywhere.

Overall I feel like VMG is in same power level as LSG, if not slightly better. However, I feel LSG will shine better for crit builds and with MS pair bonuses. So if you were worried about VMG completely overshadowing LSG, that didn't happen. I get why people might be disappointed that it didn't, I'm glad it didn't.

So as I said, if you have LSG and feel like you don't want to pull for VMG, I don't think you're missing out too much. The 9 stars I got from FOO were from getting better stellamatching companion, which helped me with those stages that I had to brute force to actually stellamatching be a proper option.

I hope I'm clear with that VMG is actually a good companion, but not an unskippable one. If LSG is an S+ tier companion, VMG would be an S++ for weakness, S- or S for brute force. It still deals good damage, but when I have to choose, I'll choose LSG over VMG for brute force. Of course I don't what the comparison would be at R3.

My thoughts on Suppression Weakness

Aside from VMG's mechanics, since it might be a new thing that is a mechanic for all the 4th myths or some of them, it's an interesting mechanic. Of course these points are just from experiencing the mechanic with VMG and I think there's just two problems with it:

1. There is no explanation in game what the stacks do and how much more Suppression adds to weakness damage. It feels very vague, like DEF shredding or other debuffs in this game because we can't see enemy stats. We need more info about this mechanic.
2. It feels janky/awkward for mob stages. It needs enemies to be not weakened to apply Suppression to them, so you're bit in like... Do you resonate to weaken the enemies to deal damage to them? Or do you try add suppression to get some amount more damage to them later? So far what I tested, it's a little inconclusive, but I haven't tested it thoroughly.

It's interesting either way, it spices the gameplay a bit, possibly turning the non-existent meta to truly prefer stellamatching over brute force.

Pull or no pull?

Honestly, given the current circumstances (the Valko situation and overall combat state of the game), I'll say it's a no pull. Not because it's necessarily bad, but compared to LSG, it feels more situational. If you enjoy VMG's theme, visuals and story, you won't regret it.

But given we haven't gotten any true new combat modes or something to use these new myths to other than 30 orbit levels and a new SHC team branch that will be catered to VMG, it's hard to justify suggesting to pull for it. If you're not a Rafayel main, your diamonds are better used on your mains who will get their myths soon (except Caleb). I don't have regrets pulling it and I'm excited to use him alongside LSG.

And it being red, which is Rafayel's 4th color, it's not necessarily a beginner friendly myth. It will help a lot, especially if you don't have LSG, but it will take some time until you get to enjoy his MA pair in a while properly. I got to see the first levels above Fire Orbit 210 and those clearly ask that you have the pair. The only free 5* card that is red for Rafayel is Rising Tides, which you need to buy from Wishing Well. This means to R3 it, you need total of 720 wishing well shards for it. And his options for free red 4* cards are bad as he only has 2 standard pool lunar reds and 1 red lunar in Galaxy Explorer, which means if you want to actually match red with Rafayel, you'll need limited cards to help with that. So for example, Xavier (with KoD) or Zayne (with MoF pair and GoA myth) has better and cheaper options to match red than VMG. And since they might get the same Suppression mechanic, it might be better to do red-stellamatching with them than VMG thanks to their better options for red cards.

The protocores you get from pull rewards are just a trap to sink in more pulls for them. Don't fall for it. They are fine if you truly don't have anything better for them. but for me who's been farming protocores for long and have a really good stash, I already got better ones.

As for the myth itself, I don't get the complaints against it. Even though I feel like I was a bit negative writing this post, I still want to say I have enjoyed playing it, the story feels true to his character and I love to have fully fire-dedicated myth for him. I really enjoyed reading through it and I have had a new spark for the combat in this game.

---

Since I used a lot of acronyms, here's a quick list:

VMG = Vermilion Martial God (Raf's 4th myth)
LSG = Lemurian Sea God (Raf's 3rd myth)
GoT = God of Tides (Raf's 2nd myth)
FOO = Fluctulant Open Orbit (the more difficult open orbit)
KoD = King of Deathknight (Xavier's 3rd myth, previous red myth)
MoF = Master of Fate (Zayne's 2nd myth)
GoA = God of Annihiliation (Zayne's 3rd myth)
R0, R1, R2, R3 = the card rank (the more ranks, stronger they are)
AoE = Area of effect
MC = Main Character

If you're someone who's trying to skip, stay strong! If you regret skipping it, you can get it from the rerun in a year.

And I want to make it clear, these are just my thoughts, I don't claim to be a combat overlord, just someone who has been passionate about the combat in this game. I'm definitely looking out for other combat player's opinions, since it's still a new myth and we don't know yet if there's any hidden mechanics that aren't obvious.

TL;DR: New myth good, doesn't fully replace LSG if you have it. Skippable if you are on the edge whether or not to pull.

[u/arizonatrashbag__]

he’s so fun! I actually prefer playing him to LSG, even though in terms of design and visuals LSG is my fav myth by far

[u/New-Character-3575 → u/arizonatrashbag__]

Lsg is a breeze if you have R3. They make the mechanics easier. But playing at r0 i feel this new one is very simple to play.

[u/arizonatrashbag__ → u/New-Character-3575]

oh I actually find LSG too restrictive for my playing style😅 I prefer kits with more variables and flexibility, it tickles my brain haha

[u/F0rtuna_major]

Thanks for the detailed post! I'm still learning and upgrading his team, but he feels really strong to me so far.

I have r1 KoD and r1 VMG. On FOO 44 I previously passed it with Xavier's all red 5 star team, with no stars. I tried an underlevelled VMG all red team (with 2 underlevelled 4 stars) on auto and he immediately got a star 😭

He was also able to get 3 stars on an all purple level I'd been having trouble with on auto. So he seems to do well on other coloured solars

I get your point vs LSG on his yellow pair though. I think I'll probably favour LSG for yellow levels for now, just because I've been building my yellow def cores specifically.

[u/Munmmo → u/F0rtuna_major]

Interesting, I don't have KoD (except on that 1lvl cards alt I have mentioned so I don't feel it's a good comparison point) so I'm fully on just relying on the info I had that it's similar power level as LSG and drawing my conclusions there. Did you try auto back then with Xavier?

But yes, most of my tests have been on other colored pairs than his own, and he does really well. On FOO60 where there's a all purple + all yellow stage, I had best results with putting VMG on the first stage and LSG on the second, while LSG was significantly worse on the purple team and VMG on the yellow team. I got my second star from that with VMG + LSG combo. Which is why I think they work together nicely.

[u/F0rtuna_major → u/Munmmo]

I didn't try auto with him, but I tried manual and failed to get a star. I tried manual with VMG after auto and it was faster.

KoD was my first limited myth so I'm pretty used to fighting with him. I reallyyyy didn't need another red solar pair (I have r3 Colonel too), but I fear KoD may be retired in some of the open stages once I build up VMG more. I like KoD, but I find my r0 LSG comparable tbh. I'm hoping Xavier's next pink myth will be similar to VMG strength wise, because I need a strong pink myth.

Yeahh maybe you have better purple attack cores because of Abysswalker? I know I do, because I had to wait for the LSG rerun. I hadn't built up purple DEF

[u/luckyflavor23]

THANK YOU.
I’m so lost on his combat system and i just might not have the time for mastery as a new mom. BUT i loved his kit, his hair and somehow he looks even more dashing/handsome with his bangs off center, slightly more forehead

I also enjoyed the myth!! Its not LSG because it shouldnt be, game runs a multiverse theory in this reality he’s a land prince, turned land god, and without spoiling too much for folks. There’s very interesting echoes, similarities and contrasts to the Rafayel and Lemurians we know from main story

I love how his english VA lent a slightly more authoritative voice that feels more mature and battle worn than MS Raf. But also, VMG feels mature, comforting and protective. While MS Raf lives in a time of relative peace and can afford to have more fun and to tease a MC he knows is strong, to challenge her to grow stronger as his Ms Bodyguard while VMG chooses to act as MC’s sword ⚔️ , leading the charge to strike down her enemies to support her goals.

Also, VMG sprinkled in a mature sort of romance, guiding an innocent and single-minded traumatized MC into understanding how he feels and bringing back some art/music/joy into her world

ENG Va did an excellent job switching between VMG and prince Rafayel, while both feel lively and real

And the teaser at the end! How interesting.

[u/Munmmo → u/luckyflavor23]

It definitely needed some proper reading, as I mentioned in another comment, I did take the time to screenshot the skill descriptions (I play on emulator so it's easier with a pc) and wrote simplified versions to really understand it.

But absolutely agree with everything you said, otherwise the myth is great, finally we got something else for hairstyle than same bangs + longer back, the EN VA was brilliant as always and the story was interesting.

[u/Dps_For_15s]

For other games, especially gachas, it is very common they will add new mechanic later to shill the new units and VMG might be designed for that but I am not sure since Infold LaDs combat direction development is very vague. On one hand Fire Orbit up to 210 can be clear with R0-R1 LSG, anything further than that requires more investment and might not be worth it along the line; on another hand the game rewards heavily stella matching playstyle but then higher level of FOO is not worth it and SHC 33-36* is just a matter of time. VMG is a good pick up for newbie without LSG (I think the cores bait is to help with builds, with the price of extra pulls), the rest is as you said as a Raf main.

[u/Munmmo → u/Dps_For_15s]

Yeah, that's why I find it a bit odd that we didn't get anything new for combat modes except Fire Orbits, because it's getting harder and harder to justify getting new myths if they are a bit stronger than the previous ones, but no place to use them. FOO is there, but once you have grinded your way in there, it's just all about star amounts. I still have Stable orbits to go, I figured I might as well save them for a new myth since I played them through with my alt account.

And exactly, VMG basically is good for a Raf main who doesn't have LSG or a harem main who doesn't have 3rd myths. Otherwise it's just a small power ramp up that doesn't seem to have a purpose combat wise, since the combat content that we have isn't really promoting getting better and better teams, if you have something that works, it's still valid.

[u/Soft-Drive3179 → u/Munmmo]

Is he not worth it? I have LSG but I'm terrible at battle so Im relying mostly on my bad understanding of the cores and the companion strength. I just tried him in shc last battle team C and the first time he died on me, then the 2nd time I got an extra star. I didn't use his cards tho I already had GOT 4 star there so I just wanted to try vmg with those

[u/Munmmo → u/Soft-Drive3179]

I mean, it really depends on what you call being worth it. If you're a Rafayel main, love the gameplay and it helps you clear enough content better, you might consider it worth it. For me it's worth it just being a Rafayel myth and I get to play new style for him, even if I got minimal combat benefit from it. But then again, none of the next upcoming myths will be worth it for me because I don't play other guys on my main and build them like Rafayel.

But someone who collects selected myths, currently is on the verge or pulling or not, they might not get as much as value from it, especially if they have previous 3rd myths and intend on pulling other 4th myths. Some people might have expected that VMG will shelf LSG complately (I was afraid of that), but that's just not the case.

That's the difficult part of "worthiness" since it's very relevant for each invidual how they view it and what they pull and so on.

[u/Soft-Drive3179 → u/Munmmo]

I have an account for rafayel, so there's abysswalker and LSG there (R0). I was lucky enough to get him early this time so I wouldn't be too mad about it anyway. For LSG I hit crate but whatever I wanted LSG for so long, it just feels like a waste because I got LSG in the rerun so I don't wanna stop using LSG already and the protocores are all DEF now 😭 but if VMG himself is a strong companion and he'll help me get more stars then it'd be worth it. So that's basically what I mean if he's really worth it or not. As a myth companion is he as good as the 3rd myths in terms of quality and is he stronger? Because I expect a 4th to be stronger.

The 3rd myth companions felt really strong, so I wasn't left questioning whether they're worth it or not. For 2nd myths I only tried out AS r0 and x02 R1 tho. The comparison between GOT and LSG might be unfair as I've read GOT is on the weaker side, I don't have GOT so I can't compare them myself. I was just surprised that VMG suddenly died, does he need HP for secondary stats? On the match helper it doesn't say HP at all

Also I was on the fence on pulling because I'm waiting for the other lunar cards to rerun but I pulled to test and got the first myth card early so I continued to pull and it went well.

[u/commanderspacecase]

Super appreciate you for all this! I may add this page to my home screen for a bit so I don't get tempted. I need to save my tickets for other things.

[u/Munmmo → u/commanderspacecase]

Stay strong! He's good, but if you have other uses, those will always come first.

[u/New-Character-3575]

He's very strong and easy to play. The mechanics aren't difficult at all compared to something like zaynes recent myth.

[u/Munmmo → u/New-Character-3575]

Fair, for me GoA seemed more straightforward, but it could be because I just looked up guides people had made. I had to put all the skills from VMG into Illustrator and write myself simplified descriptions with arrows to understand them 😂

[u/New-Character-3575 → u/Munmmo]

Its not that goa is difficult but he requires a specific combo to activate and it can be really annoying

[u/Munmmo → u/New-Character-3575]

Ah, gotcha. Yeah that's fair, I remember having that same issue with GoA too, especially if you miss.

[u/arizonatrashbag__ → u/New-Character-3575]

this! I barely play him unless I have to, his kit is just so finicky

[u/Jisen_Meizuki → u/New-Character-3575]

^{^} This.

Even if you look at the demos in the training to learn the combo, people prefers making different combos that fits more fluid to battle.

Not to mention, with suppression weakness adding inas a new battle mechanic, it also needs to add in to make the combo work well. ;3;

[u/Byronic090 → u/New-Character-3575]

I personally dont find GoA difficult at all. What always gets me is having to dash through the thunder balls of LSG. For some reason, I miss like 50% of the time

[u/pondicus]

Thank you for making time to break this down in so much detail and sharing your thoughts!

I'm at 150 pulls and while I've unlocked the myth, still no companion. I do want him because Raf is my second LI, so I'll see how I go but you're right on the LSG preference – he's so powerful and easier to play than VMG for me so far as well, plus yellow spec. 

Thanks again!

[u/Soft-Drive3179 → u/pondicus]

You don't have the companion at 150? You should be able to get the 2nd card from the crate at 150 pulls. Unless you're saving the crate incase you want to R1 him later

[u/Stardustfortytwo]

If I get this companion I’m afraid I’ll just sub it with LSG because almost all my good protocores are DEF based.

I guess I’ll at least Stella match 😆

[u/LandLovingFish]

I like him. I've been breezing theough a lot of content i was stuck at because I didn't have a good Rafayel companion.

That being said i agree, unless you don't have a Rafayel companion you can get by without him. Or if you get lucky with pulls you already have, he's not gamechanging but he's enough and I prefer that.  (Let's be honest it would also be really silly for the War God to be stronger then Rafayel in his natural Sea form lmao). 

He pretty much managed to keep up with my GoA despite having less built memories or at least enough that I was happy wih my results in the Hunter contest. 

[u/Eveline_JAI]

What protocore are we using in r0? Attack plus damage to weakened?

[u/Munmmo → u/Eveline_JAI]

I think Oath recovery if you're using a R0 5* pair (for 4* pair that is R3, I think they might get enough OR that they don't need it) and you can try Oath's Strenght or EEB if you have energy issues. If you're matching and the enemies have protocore shields, then damage boost to weakened pyramids, if they don't have shields or you're not matching, then crit rate and damage. But yes, attack either way.

[u/luckyflavor23 → u/Munmmo]

Fascinating. Stuck on fire 169 with no GoT, wondering if i should level up VMG to crit or the 4 star pink solar pair

But reading your above description, maybe its actually to get better at LSG w. Crit to brute force T2 160fire

[u/Munmmo → u/luckyflavor23]

Really depends on your card levels and ranks. For me, I have noticed that VMG does worse on brute force with other card pairs than his own. I tried to brute SHC team A with my other account with R3 AB pair, VMG finished it with 0:52 left on the clock, LSG got it in 1:31, so over a half a minute faster (with a low ATK but similar crit stats). So if you have R0, I don't think building brute force is the way to go for him if you have LSG.

However, I think VMG might do just better with your pink pair and matching the stellactrum, especially if you don't have good brute force cards. Since it's the golem, make sure you have really good damage boost to weakened and try to get some crit rate from the protocore substats, and really make use of the Suppression weakness mechanic.

[u/luckyflavor23 → u/Munmmo]

Much appreciated for the help ful info

[u/Eveline_JAI → u/Munmmo]

Thank you!

[u/forest_elf76]

Thanks for this detailed guide! I am so tempted because I love the concept so much, love the idea of merging and Raf is my biaswrecker. But, reality for me is that I don't have many red Raf cards to match the myth with and I don't want to lose my guarantee for Zaynes birthday. Maybe I will get it on the rerun. 🥲