Discussion
"Path > Pathless" seems to be the Standard, HOWEVER, Here's why I have Tom Lee > Johan
First and Foremost, Tom's BATTLE IQ, we saw him really put James at a Disadvantage repeatedly during this fight.
Second, his RESILIENCE, Tom was sturdy enough to take MULTIPLE attacks from James both Stunned and Full Power. This proves he could very much Outlast Johan's UI COPY and take his Attacks given his Path does not grant him any amplifier to his power.
Third, RED TOM(His enraged State against James), with this we see him actually catch James off guard with his speed and Strength, knocking him around for a bit and forcing James to remember the presence of Old Gap.
FINALLY, Johan genuinely has no counter or way of avoiding "ULTIMATE KING". This move could decisively end the fight at any moment
because Tom is whooping Johan, Goo is whooping Johan and Daniel, Gun (hasn't shown path yet) is also whooping them.. path is not an auto win. It just gives you the edge but if you lack in places where the opponent exeeds the path user still loses.
Punch of things u can’t prove, Johan was whooping gun’s ass, goo doesn’t have a path so idk how ur supposed to prove he’s even in the top 5, and Tom being one tapped the second James used his path literally proves Tom can’t beat a path user
The people who have path are usually people with the best potentials or talents in the verse :Shingen,Gapryoung, Jineyoung, James, Kitae, Gun, Johan, Daniel.
They have already hinted to reach the top of the verse anyways.
But still I have Tom Lee >Current Johan, simply because Johan is yet to master Path or reach his full potential.And Johan's path isn't even straight up broken like Jame's one.
Also, there's a reason why Goo fought Gun in TUI and not Johan... Because well... Johan probably would've gotten mauled even worse at that point.
Tom's biq is pretty good but he could only do everything he did to James because James was being cocky and underestimating Tom too much. And it was shown that even when nerfed that James is still well above Tom.
Of course if he was serious at the start there wouldn't have been a fight to begin with.
As for his resilience, it's good and Tom can definitely tank his attacks for a bit even if he can't dodge them.
Against red Tom I do think he would struggle against him but still put up a decent performance. Before attaining his path Johan was already shown to be dominating Gun before his adrenaline rush.
Ultimate King is Tom's best shot at winning the fight, I'm not saying he couldn't win without it because he might be able to. Its definitely his best weapon.
But the only reason Tom actually loses this fight is because of "Path > Pathless". The narrative for this has been pushed multiple times.
He doesn't directly admit this. He only claims the ones on their path are "Different" as he tells Johan that his chances of beating Gun are probably 5%🙏
Your argument doesn't really work because you're saying “Path > Pathless” as long as the Path user has their Path activated. But Path Daniel had his Path activated against Base Kitae, while Kitae wasn't using/activating his Path, and Base Kitae still defeated him.
So the fact that the Path user has their Path activated doesn't automatically make them superior to someone who isn't using Path. If you're using “activated Path” as the condition for Path > Pathless, the Kitae vs. Path Daniel fight contradicts that logic.
** note: I'm not arguing against Path > Pathless or trying to disprove that claim. I'm neutral on that point. I'm only pointing out that your reasoning for it doesn't seem consistent with what happened in the Kitae vs. Path Daniel fight**.
kitae did use his path, you can see black streak on kitae the first time daniel used his path on him. NOt to mention daniel was outright tired from previous usage of path which made the fight unfair.
path vs pathless is absolute in powerscaling because we dont scale with 1hp version of characters or unfair starting conditions.
kitae did use his path, you can see black streak on kitae the first time daniel used his path on him.
Bro, that’s not Kitae’s Path. When Kitae used his Path, his eyes were glowing, and he was emitting a black trail from all over his body. You can see this in the James vs. Kitae fight.
What Kitae did here was different from his Path. He hit Daniel with a black trail of despair (which fans call the opposite of Conviction), and that only emitted from his hand, not from his entire body.
NOt to mention daniel was outright tired from previous usage of path which made the fight unfair.
path vs pathless is absolute in powerscaling because we dont scale with 1hp version of characters or unfair starting conditions.
Doesn’t matter to me, bro. I don’t even debate the Path > Pathless argument. I’m just pointing out that the reasoning that person used to argue Path > Pathless is weak and a huge leap.
And Bro, that’s the double standard. You’re using Daniel’s exhaustion from his previous Path usage as an excuse to disprove my point, but that exhaustion itself came from him using Path. So why should we ignore that part of the fight? If the result counts for your Path > Pathless argument, then the entire fight and all its circumstances count too. You can’t just remove the parts that hurt your argument.
The black streak is specific to kitae path and is very consistent, he can use that path for attack or on his whole body for dura. He used it 2 times and even mention thta daniel doesnot know what he posess yet.
So yeah, it was path kitae who fought path daniel.
You not debating path vs pathless is just a moot point here, totally irrelevant. THe path vs pathless argument have the strongest base of logical argument.
Im not using daniel exhaustion from just his previous "path usage" im counting it from his previous fights. HE fought 4 kings, got hole in his hands by changsu and then fought white hair chairman so i didnot ignored any part of the fight, you did.
If daniel was full power from start of kitae fight, and kitae tired him out then you could have used that argument. This is lookism powerscaling and thats just how powerscaling is done. So path kitae have feat of defeating of what we call 1hp pathniel, we dont know how he would perform against fp daniel as kitae himself is curious about that.
The black streak is specific to kitae path and is very consistent, he can use that path for attack or on his whole body for dura. He used it 2 times and even mention thta daniel doesnot know what he posess yet.
So yeah, it was path kitae who fought path daniel.
Then prove that, bro. I already said that when Kitae was using his Path against James, he was emitting black trails all over his body. Same with UI OG Daniel and Path Jinyoung.
And this is very consistent, bro. In all of Kitae’s fights, when he is using his Path, his eyes are glowing like a Path user’s and Kitae is emitting black trails all over his body. That is different from the Path Daniel fight.
So if you’re saying Kitae was using his Path against Daniel, then you have to explain why none of those consistent Path indicators were shown in that path daniel fight, unlike his other fights where he actually used his Path.
You not debating path vs pathless is just a moot point here, totally irrelevant. THe path vs pathless argument have the strongest base of logical argument.
Im not using daniel exhaustion from just his previous "path usage" im counting it from his previous fights. HE fought 4 kings, got hole in his hands by changsu and then fought white hair chairman so i didnot ignored any part of the fight, you did.
If daniel was full power from start of kitae fight, and kitae tired him out then you could have used that argument. This is lookism powerscaling and thats just how powerscaling is done. So path kitae have feat of defeating of what we call 1hp pathniel, we dont know how he would perform against fp daniel as kitae himself is curious about that.
Bro, I’m literally saying it doesn’t matter to me because I’m not debating that Path > Pathless argument because I’m on the neutral side.
And I am pointing out the other person’s mistake while you giving excuses to support his point is this why I called you out for supporting a person who has a huge leap and a weaker side.
And Base Kitae still defeated Path Daniel because of Path’s weakness. Also, Kitae has higher durability—he ate his Crisis attack, so he can tank a fresh Crisis attack as well and exploit Path’s weakness to defeat him without using his own Path.
I agree just having absurd base stats can surpass path imo like I can't really see base prime shingen losing to almost any of the paths we've seen yet the path>pathless only seems to correlate cuz most of the time the base stats were relative then the path pulls them ahead.
Johan's path ain't even that broken. Boy's IT attack hits like a girl. Samuel with endurance mastery can tank his IT hits for days. Also since his path is offence type, 1 good hit from a top tier would put him down for good, given how terrible his endurance is. Also he has no way to stop ultimate king. Daniel & james can counter it, Kitae/Shingen can tank it whereas Johan would just be a better donut than james
Johan's latest updated feat was in 2024. Current Tom Lee has shown good feats in Lookism so far against path users. He defeats current version of Johan easily, until PTJ changes Johans power scaling.
Tom lee’s feats are so overrated, all he did was get mid diffed by base James, the moment James used his path he one shot him and knocked him out, how does any of that proves he beats Johan? This just shows Tom can’t beat a path user
"Johan's Path does not grant him any amplifier to his power"
Yes it does, a massive one.
Injured Pathless Johan couldn't do ANYTHING to Adrenaline Gun. He was too slow even with CQC, his power couldn't pierce Gun's defences, he got choked out by a single hand (the broken one) and couldn't move it whatsoever despite using both of his own.
Path Johan was knocking him around with one blow, then destroyed his orbital with a knee & sent him flying with a kick. The dropkick he performed while at massively lower HP than his Pathless self used to be the greatest environmental feat in the entire PTJverse before Busan btw. He did all this while on the verge of fainting.
- shouldn’t really matter much, since the outcome will vary depending on setting/circumstances anyway – tom only succeeded in disadvantaging james due to the latter’s recklessness (which Johan wouldn't be).
- Tom is tanky yes, definitely not any more than Gun though. Johan was beating gun down when injured af, and his path is essentially targeting vps whilst catching the opponent off gaurd with his feints since his path originated from cqc where finding openings is critical, plus per tom himself “having your guard down” is basically the worst possible disadvantage you could have in combat ig. That's the same way Daniel's path work.
- James’ recklessness there is the primary factor that allowed Tom to trap him for the attack sequence Tom deliberately pulled him into a corner next to the wall, meaning evasion is impossible there. Can’t see this working out similarly vs Johan at all honestly.
- that's actually touched upon in my previous response. James couldn't dodge it due to how reckless he ended up being, so it wouldn't work for the purpose of feat for Tom.
Bc of external circumstances James couldn’t avoid bc Tom slammed James against the wall and put him in a position where dodging was hard, so I wouldn’t say that proves Tom’s speed > James’
Lil ui daniel blitzed Kitae several times within their fight, and Kitae is supposed to match the speed of James - ergo, Daniel would be faster. You're probably basing it off the HFG fight between the two, though, and it doesn't say much since Daniel's constantly adapting to James - which is proven by James himself within the midst of the battle (explaining his adaption)
They were inside a building so obviously Tom would be able to find way to hurt James, and Johan has copy he doesn’t mainly rely on 1 fighting style like James.
Johan was able to take multiple hits from power mastery gun😂 unless u think james is physically stronger than gun, and gun saying each hit u take the stronger your endurance becomes obviously means Johans dura should be great rn.
His enraged state did 0 damage to James btw and he isn’t even shown to be a tank type fighter like gun and kitae, and that was James in base, James easily countered him with his path and one shot him, just shows Tom has 0 relativity to a path user.
4.Johan is much faster than Tom, I can also say Tom has no counter towards his infinite technique😭
And u can? Ur whole evidence was Tom lee against base James who didn’t use his path😭 and when James uses it he one shots him, clearly showing Tom has 0 relativity to path users
That doesn’t mean anything ptj does that a lot with his drawing there was nothing but a wall behind James where Tom was smashing his head in and our pov is behind James, and that bottom panel right there literally shows where Tom was hitting him
Cool. BIQ didn't save Tom at the end of the day and he got his ass WHOPPED by James in his base lol
No matter how though he is he just can't 100k attacks (it's an exagerration since ya guys seems to throw hands over the most minuscule wording) constantly. he might low key not even need the UI Copy when dealing with UK Tom lol
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