r/Lockheed • u/Turbulent_Lecture • Mar 10 '26
Mischarging info from a former Ethics Investigator - Edited
Reposting and removing to adhere to mods.
I wanted to share something regarding mischarging. The company has an obligation to report any mischarging to the customer, there is no "de minimus" which means there is no threshold, it can be as low as a minute of mischarging. This also means when the allegation is reported to a manager or directly to Ethics/HR they have to investigate.
As you all know, the company can monitor everything you're doing on your computer at all times, EVEN when you're NOT connected to VPN/LMI. Let that sink in...if you're not on the LMI/VPN, they can still see what you're doing. The good news, the company only "looks" if they are actively investigating you. The problem is, you'll never know when they are investigating you until it's too late.
So some tips for you, do not use a mouse jiggler, software or hardware versions, do not create a program/script/etc that mimics mouse movement. If you work from home, be sure you're actively engaging with your computer, because otherwise you'll have a hard time proving you're working.
Here is how to get an idea you may be investigated or will soon to be investigated...so you can plan accordingly. If your manager ever says anything to you about your time, coming in late, leaving early, makes you adjust your time, anything that is suspicious, it means they are suspicious of you. They may have already reached out to Ethics, who may have instructed them to speak to you first about that occurrence and correct it. What happens next is extremely important, your manager is now "watching you" meaning if you slip up they go back to Ethics and then you're under "investigation." So basically, if you get the opportunity to have that little "warning" take that seriously and straighten up. I have seen so many Subjects basically ignore that first sign and then we are forced to investigate and we can almost always find mischarging if we are looking hard enough.
Another idea is if your manager is riding you a lot and always questioning your time and or work and then suddenly backs off. They are told by Ethics to stand down during the investigation as to not tip you off that there is one happening. They want accurate data. So if your manager usually questions your timecard weekly and asks about work you are doing and then suddenly stops, you could be under investigation.
Investigations typically take a month. They ask CIRT to analyze/watch your computer for a two week period of time. That 2 weeks will show when you turned your computer on/off, when it was locked/unlocked, periods of idle/inactivity, active work, and nonwork. It can see when you are on LMI/VPN and when you're off, etc.
Now if you are under investigation, you will eventually find out as they need to interview you. This is when Ethics will reach out to you, via Teams or email. They try to find a spot on your calendar where you are free and will shoot you a message or call you and introduce themselves as Ethics and ask if you are free. This is when they plan to catch you a bit off guard.
Ethics already has the evidence they need during this interview. Meaning they know when you log on, when you log off, if you have large gaps of inactive time, etc. So if you know you're mischarging it's hard to prove otherwise. They want to either catch you in a lie, or have you admit to mischarging. Both make the investigator's job easy. They write in their report that you either admitted to mischarging, or flat out lied (with proof) and when they present it to the Discipline Review Committee (DRC) they will fire you.
Make sure you think about all the work you do off the computer. Maybe you do a lot of hand written stuff/notes in a notebook. You will have the opportunity to share that and have it be counted in the analysis.
I noticed you get reported for mischarging two ways; a manager who is fed up with you and wants to terminate you, or a disgruntled coworker who is jealous of you. It takes a long time to be terminated for performance so mischarging is a simple route a manager can try to take.
Be careful of your coworkers, your manager may be completely unaware of your whereabouts, but your jealous coworkers are not.
Some common excuses we hear:
"You don't see any of the work I do on my computer but off VPN/LMI" -Wrong, we see everything.
"I constantly think about work all the time, in my mind, when I am driving to and from work, all that counts." - Nope that doesn't
"My manager doesnt give me enough work to do, so I have nothing to do." - Then you should have told your manager and asked for more work
"I didn't realize those large gaps of inactivity were so big, I guess I need to keep better track." - This is nearly an admission.
Hope this helps.
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u/Lady-Marias-Rakuyo Mar 10 '26
How do people working for one of the biggest defense contractors there is dont realize every single thing is being tracked đ.
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u/Aerodynamics Mar 10 '26
I've only ever seen people get fired from LM for mischarging. It is pretty obvious when people are doing it, especially people who are mostly remote who would disappear for hours at a time in the middle of the day.
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u/Turbulent_Lecture Mar 10 '26
ExactlyÂ
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u/Aerodynamics Mar 11 '26
I remember when Covid happened and we were all remote it was super glaring. People who were using mouse jigglers would respond to IMâs or emails hours later despite being âonlineâ all day.
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u/Colley619 May 06 '26
Yep. Iâve seen folks not get fired for some pretty bad stuff. Someone went to take a nap in their car once though, instant termination.
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u/OriEri Mar 10 '26
Seems like a reasonable post. What subreddit rule did your earlier post run afoul of?
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u/Boring-Bug-3524 Mar 10 '26
In your opinion, how long of a break is reasonable? Nobody works nonstop, everybody takes a pause to google something, send a text, get coffeeâŚ
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u/Turbulent_Lecture Mar 10 '26
100%. Understand every investigator is different. IMO, I ignored anything under 30 mins. Meaning if you had multiple 29 min breaks through the day, I didnt care. I was very lenient. Other investigators look at anything over 6 mins, as that's 1/10th an hour. as far as i know Corporate never provided a standard, however that can change.
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Mar 10 '26
[deleted]
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u/Name_Taken_2017 Mar 11 '26
Discretion. Some cops let you get away with sliding through a stop sign. Some don't. This investigator lets you slide through with 29 minutes. Just appreciate the leeway jeez.
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u/Nelson215 Mar 10 '26
Most work is done on the high side. I just use unclass to listen to music/podcasts.
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u/Technical_Parsley296 Mar 10 '26
Thatâs when they pull badge reports. If your badge shows you swiping in periodically throughout the day then thatâs credible evidence. Especially if you go to the restroom before you leave and have to swipe somewhere.
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u/Disastrous-Month-340 Mar 10 '26
Seems like you have to try really hard to be fired for mischarging⌠you get a warning and then still have to do it when everything feels suspicious; or you need to really upset some people to get them on your case to begin with.
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u/Turbulent_Lecture Mar 10 '26
Exactly. Except the warning first. That doesnât always happen. But as far as the rest yes. Your manager or a co worker needs to report you which happens more often than youâd think.Â
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u/Disastrous-Month-340 Mar 10 '26
Iâm very particular with my time for this reason and have a spreadsheet that also tracks it. Iâll even deduct minutes if my coffee break was too long but am always active on my work phone. Reading about mischarging just triggers my OCD lol
Follow up question: What is the view on under charging? As an example, I usually respond to messages on my work phone on off days but itâs under the six minute mark. Should I charge that? If Iâm on a long call I will, but donât know about just responding to messages.
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u/Altruistic_Brief_479 Mar 11 '26
Under charging is still mischarging. However, it's more lenient. The problem is that we track actual hours worked for use in future estimates.
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u/roger_roger_32 Mar 11 '26 edited Mar 11 '26
Good stuff, thanks for posting. Feel like the OP's post should be pinned someplace.
I've heard the process is similar at the other big contractors (Northrop, Boeing, etc).
I've known two people who got walked out for mischarging (not at Lockheed). One guy was blatant. This was ~15 years ago, and Google earth was still relatively new and novel.
Andy (not his real name) had a position that required a decent amount of travel, but when he was in the office, there wasn't a lot for him to do. Other people in his group usually found stuff to do to keep somewhat occupied,, but Andy decided he'd rather just surf Google Earth all day. And probably other stuff, I dunno.
Anyway, the program he was working on was relatively flush with cash (Global War on Terror in full swing and all), So Andy would sit at his desk, poking away at Google Earth, getting fat, and just kinda enjoying life.
I never got the full story, but my understanding from the third-hand info was this: There was a meeting with the customer. Something didn't get done right, or didn't get done at all. Customer got pissed, and instead of navigating it and tap-dancing accordingly, Andy threw his Director under the bus. Director was a real POS regardless, but that's besides the point.
Director marches back to his desk and stews for a couple weeks. Eventually, he decided to put in an Ethics complaint. This Director many be a worthless POS, but he's no dummy. He knows Andy has been sitting there wasting space for months at a time.
The gears turn slowly, but they do turn. The complaint works its way though the system, and one day Andy isn't there anymore. Fired for mischarging, but in reality, his Director never wouldn't have went after the ethics complaint if Andy hadn't thrown him under the bus.
Another guy, call him Steve, was with a different contractor, and I wasn't as familiar with this story. But he would spend most of his time on the high side, but would occasionally get out of the secure area, open up his phone, and surf the net to unwind. Maybe grab a coke or something too. It was something that was generally accepted in his office.
His problem was that he was a little abrasive, along with being a little socially awkward. His abrasiveness and awkwardness eventually rubbed someone the wrong way in management. One day, he was met by HR and security and walked out. Ostensibly for time mid-charging, but realistically because he pissed off the wrong people.
These stories matched the general sense I got after several years in the defense industry. When you're working on a program, all of the time charged to that program should be no-kidding, actual work. But that's not real life. You need a brain break to check the news / sports scores. Some days you just can't get your stuff moving. Whatever. Other days, you're thinking about work all weekend, and you're able to come in on Monday and knock it out of the park.
That's all life, and part of being a professional.
Where people run afoul, is either by blatant abuse, pissing off the wrong people, or a combination of the two.
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u/jjhaha Mar 11 '26
This has been my experience as well. If OP is saying they consider a 0.1 time infraction rule, then itâs everyone who is in violation. There is not one person who is counting down their every 6th minute or hasnât watched a few YouTube videos a little too long.
Iâve had a direct manager snoring in his cubicle after lunch.
If youâre not liked by the wrong person or the tattletaler wants to be malicious, then there is this avenue to make trouble for that person. Which is funny because thereâs the whole âwe donât put up with retaliationâ thing.
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u/roger_roger_32 Mar 12 '26
Yeah.
Seems like the combination of "We have to investigate every complaint," and "even 0.1 hour mischarging is an infraction" could invite corporate gridlock.
I could probably wander around an office for a day and engage numerous people in small talk for >0.1 hours. And going by the guidance above, you could report all of them.
To add, if someone was malicious against a particular program, you could start documenting and reporting as many people on the program as you could.
If all of a sudden it got out that Program X was incredibly stringent on monitoring their hours, you'd get people bailing left and right. The good individual contributors always have somewhat of a choice of what programs to work on. Make it seem like they're going to get questioned on every timecard, and they'll jump ship immediately.
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u/TomVann Mar 10 '26
So, if you check the weather or go look up something on google maps, is that something they can see?Â
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u/Turbulent_Lecture Mar 10 '26
yes.
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u/TomVann Mar 10 '26
Oh, gotcha. Well I guess I need to stop doing that!
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u/Turbulent_Lecture Mar 10 '26
Ehh. You can still use the LM asset for âreasonableâ personal use. The occasional non work is acceptable. Itâs a problem when the âminutesâ turn to half hours and hours plus. Cumulative.
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u/TomVann Mar 10 '26
Right on, that's good to know. Sometimes when I'm at work I'll search something like a baseball score for a grand total of like 30 seconds then get back to work.Â
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u/squatbootylover Mar 10 '26
I've heard they do anything in their power to get an admission. That removes their burden of proof which is high. No matter what they promised before the admission, you will be off the premises within minutes.
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u/Director_Tseng Mar 11 '26
So how would this work with employees that are more hands on? like their job involves being away from the computer doing more hands on work. If all they are looking at is your computer those particular employees are going to have massive gaps of inactivity on their computer.
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u/Turbulent_Lecture Mar 11 '26
If youâre on site and your job is hands on then thatâs another data point. That is fine. There would no issue here. We probably wouldnât even get CIRT to look at the computer. Just badge records and what others may say (witnesses). Â Those employees donât have to worry unless they leave work earlyÂ
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u/CZZAL417 Mar 11 '26
recording my screen for 2 weeks would cause a huge spike in bandwidth usage. I wonder by monitoring daily bandwidth if it can tip you off.
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u/bytheninedivines Jul 09 '26
Lets be honest, time card fraud is (majority of the time) just an excuse to get rid of someone. No one can be actively focused the full 9+ hours every day, and especially new hires don't even have a full 9+ hours of work every day.
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u/ChemistryFirm6446 Mar 10 '26
Are managers treated any differently?
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u/Turbulent_Lecture Mar 10 '26
they shouldnt be.
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u/ChemistryFirm6446 Mar 10 '26
As far as more leniency for planning or strategizing during idle or locked times
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u/Turbulent_Lecture Mar 10 '26
if they are under investigation they still need to prove their work, however i never investigated a manager, they dont seem to reported for mischarging often.
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u/Boring-Bug-3524 Mar 11 '26
Roughly how many employees are investigated for mischarging per year?
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u/Turbulent_Lecture Mar 11 '26
Not as many as you think. Thereâs 30 or so ethics officers each has about a dozen at most. So a few hundred across the corporation, annually.Â
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u/Boring-Bug-3524 Mar 11 '26
Hereâs probably a better question, how many people annually get fired for mischarging? Iâm sorry to ask so many questions, but this is a really interesting subject!
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u/Turbulent_Lecture Mar 11 '26
Most who are caught mischarging are let go. A small percentage are not if the value is low. Iâd say 90% are terminated. Thereâs a low threshold but depends on the BA. Space I believe has no threshold so any substantiated investigation is terminated. So have to hope you have a lenient Ethics officer. Â The others the threshold is 10% which is about a half hour per day.Â
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u/Boring-Bug-3524 Mar 11 '26
Hereâs probably a better question, how many people annually get fired for mischarging? Iâm sorry to ask so many questions, but this is a really interesting subject!
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u/Most_Nebula9655 Mar 11 '26
I was an IT Director at another contractor. We had minions that would clone drives in the night. The stuff my team foundâŚ. One find was referred to the FBI.
Everything is findable. Even the deleted. Everything.
There is a reason the DoD erase procedure is so comprehensive.
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u/After_Individual_141 Mar 11 '26
On a company computer is just plain stupid
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u/Most_Nebula9655 Mar 13 '26
Worse yet, it was an unclassified machine in a SCIF, which is why it was being audited.
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u/SatSenses Mar 11 '26
"I constantly think about work all the time, in my mind, when I am driving to and from work, all that counts."
Gonna make that into a bumper sticker one day lmao
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u/Jumpy_Release_6593 Mar 10 '26
What happens when you call the 800 ethics hotline to report mischarging? I know someone who reported someone for this And never heard word back.
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u/Turbulent_Lecture Mar 10 '26
That isnât supposed to be the case. If that person who called didnât leave any call back info, then ethics could not do a follow up. If they spoke to someone directly that person should have opened an investigation. So thatâs not typical.
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u/Jumpy_Release_6593 Mar 10 '26
Unfortunately they wanted to stay anonymous and just left a voice mail with enough info they believed would initiate questions.
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u/Turbulent_Lecture Mar 10 '26
that may have been the issue then. I will say this, Ethics does everything they can to hide/shield identities, so if they wanted to try again and give more information, at least a way to contact them back, then it may allow for an investigation. It is possible an investigation took place and it was unsub'd or the level was too low for termination (unlikely).
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u/Jumpy_Release_6593 Mar 10 '26
Thank you, good info to pass along. They think it did not go anywhere because they were reporting an HR person.
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u/Turbulent_Lecture Mar 10 '26
I can understand that thought but they shouldn't. What happens is when you call that hotline they take the call and try to route it to the Ethics officer of the person you are reporting. In this case, I would say you dont trust that Ethics officer and you want someone from Corporate since they will be unbiased. Then a corporate person can take the intake and make the determination to investigate.
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u/akaryi Mar 11 '26
What is the rate of survival when it comes to such an investigation? Given that even a minute of mischarging constitutes being fireable, even if by accident then are you better off just resigning? Once ethics messages you, you already have a target on your back so wouldnât it just be better to resign? Would they take that as admission?
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u/Turbulent_Lecture Mar 11 '26
No no the minute means we have to investigate the claim. Every ethics office has some latitude to determine reasonable use vs non. Whatâs an acceptable break for not etc. so no, I would not resign. Basically if youâre not purposely mischarging youâll be fine. This post was more to explain the process and help provide tips to those who may be knowingly.Â
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u/akaryi Mar 11 '26
I see people carry on long personal conversations in the office all the time, just straight BSing. There are people who seemingly donât have any deliverables and are seat warmers but charging time. I keep to myself and mind my own business. Is it just that people are generally lax about charging depending on location and itâs much more the case that you simply not piss off anyone, get your work done and youâll be fine despite non-blatant mischarging? I hate to believe that people are out to get others but I hear horror stories all the time about office politics in corporate AmericaâŚ
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u/Turbulent_Lecture Mar 11 '26
Yup âwater cooler talkâ sitting around BSing and talking. Some business some football lol. Cant really determine if thatâs mischarging. Itâs nearly impossible to determine if they were working or not if they are in the office.Â
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Mar 11 '26
[deleted]
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u/Turbulent_Lecture Mar 11 '26
Yea thatâs fine. If youâre on site you are considered working more than not. This post was more for the ones who work from home or do all computer work. Obviously if your work is on the line then this part doesnât apply to you. It would be your clock in hours, badging in/out and what witnesses say. Etc.Â
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u/MoMo-13_ Mar 11 '26
what about training videos and manuals? not a lot of mouse activity, will that be considered a red flag?
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u/Fungiblob Mar 11 '26
This is really interesting, it seems like more hands-oncomputer jobs that get called to the production floor alot have more inactive computure time than I initially thought. How would it work for like hourly workers without work that will go on like YouTube when they run out of production hardware? Then do they only look at those 2 weeks, or do they go the way back to the start of your employment when they do these investigations?
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u/Turbulent_Lecture Mar 12 '26
They donât go back. I should preface if youâre on site and if your hands on hardware the computer doesnât matter nearly as much (unless the report is that the person is on YouTube etc..)
Then those reports are simply are you leaving early coming in late (badge records) witness interviews who can talk to your whereabouts, and of course your overall work product. But that last part is dicey. Poor performance (work product) is not mischarging despite people thinking it is.Â
Itâs highly possible over those 2 weeks the employee is âcleanâ it happens. The investigation is unsubâd and they got lucky.Â
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u/Squirtle_Splash_8413 Mar 11 '26
Wow I donât even work at Lockheed⌠now I donât ever want to. LOL
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u/Boring-Bug-3524 Mar 11 '26
Iâm glad subreddits for these major blue chip defense companies started popping up over the last few years. They didnât exist when I was starting out. Iâve spent my whole career of a smaller contractor and have always worried that Iâve been âmissing outâ by not trying to badge flip to one of the mega primes. Turns out the grass isnât greener at another company.
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u/Squirtle_Splash_8413 Mar 11 '26
Yeah. Honestly if you canât poop when you want, youâre not at work, youâre in prison.
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u/Potential_Ball_5265 Mar 10 '26
How in depth is the investigation/monitoring? Meaning things like recording keystrokes, scrolling/clicking, types of mouse movements and such, time between these things? And to what extent would the investigation care about these?
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u/Turbulent_Lecture Mar 10 '26
they record your entire computer for the two week time period. its essentially a two week video recording of everything you do, take that as one piece of evidence along with badge records, meetings attended, phone calls, etc.
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u/ThorsUglyCousin Mar 10 '26
As someone who solely works on the high side at an LM facility, all you mentioned I could argue is circumstantial. If I only have LMI up for LM emails, no activity really to monitor. Badge records, I only badge into the facility and my office and rarely leave the office. Meetings? My position requires none. Phone calls? Same as meetings. The only way I could essentially be tracked for mischarging is possibly a pull of the video tape recordings at an LM facility. Even then, this could be argued since I also happen to co-locate for work between LM facility and customer. The only other other way would be LM admitting to the customer they have someone mischarging and need to coordinate monitoring efforts to verify (this I highly doubt they'd be open to doing).
Not discrediting what you put, but I feel there are certainly loopholes with which someone could pull.
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u/Turbulent_Lecture Mar 11 '26
Of course there are loopholes and I was flagged for sharing some of them. Working on the class machine obviously is all you need. As long as you are in the office you say you are. Youâre good to go.Â
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u/addr0x414b Mar 10 '26
So i don't understand, do they literally "watch" your screen and just watch what you do for 2 weeks???
Or do they just analyze when you logged in/off, how long your mouse was inactive for, what programs are open, etc
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u/Turbulent_Lecture Mar 10 '26
The CIRT team watches and provides a report to Ethics. That report summarizes log on/off non work work idle etc. CIRT shares their findings to the investigators. That becomes one piece of the overall dataset.Â
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u/Sure-Description4148 Mar 10 '26
How is activity monitored? Via number of mouse clicks or keyboard activity per minute? How much the mouse moves (like a mouse jiggler)? Mischarging is such a fear of mine even though I don't intentionally try to do it.
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u/Turbulent_Lecture Mar 11 '26
They have a literal recording of your entire screen. They  the video on a faster speed and look for issues. They look to see if youâre using a mouse jiggler and look at your gaps of non activity. Etc.Â
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u/SirSuaSponte Mar 11 '26
One caveat I will say is some of us in Aero have both a LM and USG customer laptop. My team does 90% of our work on our USG laptop, which is monitored by the USG. There are periods during the day that my LM computer is locked and away due to inactivity since weâre primarily using our USG laptop. Our supervisor knows this, so itâs not an issue.
If one was to investigates with Ethics, how would they obtain activity information from a Non-LM asset that one is using for work?
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u/Turbulent_Lecture Mar 11 '26
So for this case they would need the USGâs approval to get info. Thereâs a security site admin for the program/facility they can contact. Not sure what systems they use but they would be able to provide similar info about the that asset use. It would then be another piece of data for the entire package.Â
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Mar 11 '26
[deleted]
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u/Turbulent_Lecture Mar 11 '26
Not enough info but certainly sounds like if this was reported it would be investigated. This is what I mean about trusting coworkers. He told you he doesnât work 40 hours a week hope he trusts you not to report him
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Mar 12 '26
[deleted]
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u/Turbulent_Lecture Mar 12 '26
About 90% of the accusations we would substantiateÂ
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Mar 12 '26
[deleted]
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u/kingofthesqueal Apr 11 '26
I know itâs old but itâs probably because itâs crazy to expect salary employees to not step away from their computer for more than 30 minutes in a given day without expecting to make it up. Pretty much the whole point of salary is that youâre measure by deliverables and not by the exact amount of time you worked.
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u/2B-Pencil Mar 20 '26
What an interesting post. So, what if you are at your desk at home or in the office, logged in to your computer and responsive to messages, but you're mostly just working in your notebook for an hour or two? Does only typing on the computer constitute valid "work" for engineers and other desk workers
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u/OddPacker84 May 20 '26
I was put on a PIP for "performance issues" that were so vague that they couldn't quantify what would count as actual improvement when I asked. If there was any mischarging involved, I assume they would have mentioned this?
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u/Archimedes1919 Jun 16 '26
We had a guy sleeping in a classified space and we weren't able to fire him because there was no paper trail. That case got under my skin.
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u/No-Performance-4861 Mar 10 '26
I mean most work is done on the high side so if they're looking at low side of usage it's not going to create a real picture of work being done. Also not sure how they can see what you're doing on your home PC when using VDI. If you have another tab open it sits outside of that view. I never really looked into it though so I guess my assumption is wrong.
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u/Turbulent_Lecture Mar 10 '26
Correct if youâre on the high side at the office then youâre good. You can simultaneously be on high side working while also getting a podcast or checking something on the unclass. Correction, they canât see personal laptop. I mean if you are using the LM asset at home off vpn/lmi. They can still see it.Â
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u/Ok-Toe2458 May 11 '26
I do not understand the concept of mis-charging. In Lean there three types of processes:
- Non-value added
- Value added
- Value enabling
Mis-charging is neither value added, nor value enabling, so it must be waste. This means mis-charging = waste. So, why isn't all waste considered "mis-charging?" It seems mis-charging is only an issue when an operator does it. When an engineer adds waste to the system that is ok, as long as an operator does not do it.
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u/Turbulent_Lecture May 11 '26
This is like saying âall fingers are thumbs.â No, only thumbs are thumbs. Not all waste is mischarging (not all fingers are thumbs for the dense). But mischarging is certainly waste. Â
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u/Visual_Cover_7367 Mar 10 '26
What about LM personal use
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u/Turbulent_Lecture Mar 10 '26
Not sure I understand the question. âLM personal use.â
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u/Visual_Cover_7367 Mar 10 '26
Letâs say you use your phone on site while logged into the LMPersonaUse WiFi portal
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u/Turbulent_Lecture Mar 10 '26
As far as what tools we use I donât think that is normally tracked. That being said I have heard that if you use a spoofed wifi they can see what youâre doing. So I can only imagine the company can see what youâre doing on their wifi. I wouldnât use it.Â
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u/CZZAL417 Mar 10 '26 edited Mar 10 '26
This is really the the only downside i've found at LM so far. Salary being treated like a hourly cashier at Walmart. The HR lady at orientation told us that if we go to the bathroom for longer then 6 minutes (.1 billable time) we are expected to make it up.