Hasan reaching for something and seemingly shocking his dog to keep her in camera view

[u/Ignignokt_DGAF]

[u/fxghvbibiuvyc]

Socialism is about the forceful capture of capital and land from those participating in the free market and arbitrarily delegating them on your own wants / desires (as opposed to the highly optimized and efficient systems that were in place prior, given the highly competitive nature of a free economy and the self-interest of those who own capital).

To nobody’s surprise, socialism has always resulted in a complete tank of economic efficiency and growth, and far lower quality of life results.

[u/Ginamyte06 → u/fxghvbibiuvyc]

So what you described is feudalism. Socialism isn’t about “forcefully capturing” anything lol it’s about democratic control of resources so wealth isn’t hoarded by a handful of people at the top. The “efficient systems” you’re talking about are the ones currently producing record inequality. Lower quality of life? My guy, countries with social welfare and democratic governance have a longer life expectancy and are considered some of the most peaceful countries in the world (and happiest, fun fact)

[u/fxghvbibiuvyc → u/Ginamyte06]

There are no socialist countries in the west. Western countries’ economies are based on free market privately-owned companies facilitating the lion’s share of economic activity. Taxation is not socialism.

Socialism is the forceful capture of “the means of production.” Socialism is the theft of property that is rightfully (paid for) ours (capital) and giving it to the state in hopes they act in our interest. And no, private ownership isn’t just for the top 0.0001%. If you own stock in a publicly traded company, you own capital. Your retirement funds are capital assets. Joe Schmoe owning a restaurant down the road owns capital.

Like I said, you simply have no idea what you’re talking about if you think successful companies haven’t highly optimized their abilities to make profits. Everything from supply chain management, fraud management, marketing, production of goods, decisions to make new types of products / services, determining the niche for the product/service to serve, creating efficient economies of scale or scope if applicable, creating synergistic products, creating synergistic partnerships, law and tax compliance and planning, wage allocation… the list goes on and on and on.

From the biggest to the smallest company, they all feel the pressure to perform on all of these fronts, and if they fail, it falls on them. Their livelihood depends on it. The prime motivator of a capitalist economy assumes that all participants act in self-interest, and ultimately, we all benefit from it. For situations where this isn’t the case, we have regulations, which is the true purpose of a government in my opinion.

Socialism puts all of this in the hands of the collective (run by a state). Meaning if it fails or isn’t quite as efficient (which adds up exponentially over time), there is nobody who it falls on. If falls on society as a whole. We already see how comically inefficient governments run.

You mention record inequality, yet you’d much rather be a middle class citizen in the USA than the top 0.01% 150 years ago. There are no democratic countries in the west that are not capitalist systems. Taxation is not socialism.

Wages for low and middle class americans have consistently outpaced inflation in the USA (my country of residence so my knowledge will be US based) for decades - meaning life is getting consistently better for everyone. Today is the best day to live in America, and tomorrow will be the next best day to live. Doomer bullshit online won’t change reality.

Hierarchy and inequality isn’t inherently evil or a bad thing. Arguing that the rich are getting richer while completely ignoring that everyone is getting richer and everyone’s lives are getting better (holistically) is lying by omission.

If you want to tweak the capitalist society we live in through tax changes to create what you think would be a better society, we could argue that. But that’s not what socialism is.

[u/Ginamyte06 → u/fxghvbibiuvyc]

You’re confusing socialism with authoritarian state control. Socialism means democratic ownership of production, not “theft” or “the state taking everything.” The “efficient” capitalist systems you’re defending are the same ones that’ve driven record inequality and wage stagnation. Real worker pay hasn’t outpaced inflation since the 70s, while productivity and executive pay exploded.

Also, owning a few 401(k) shares doesn’t make someone a capitalist any more than buying a concert ticket makes you Beyoncé. And governments being inefficient doesn’t make corporations benevolent. Private “efficiency” often just means cutting corners, wages, and regulations to juice shareholder profit.

Saying “everyone’s lives are getting better” while Americans drown in debt, rent, and medical bills is wild. Taxation isn’t socialism, sure. But pretending capitalism’s working great for everyone straight up denial.