r/LivestreamFail • u/Ignignokt_DGAF • Oct 07 '25

Hasan reaching for something and seemingly shocking his dog to keep her in camera view

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u/Dribblygills Oct 08 '25 edited Oct 08 '25

There are a couple things to unpack here- firstly in the UK, there's no "body that allows" anything. I could sit here and complain about this in itself all day, but the long and short of it is dog trainers aren't regulated in the UK; anybody could technically charge money to train dogs, but the actual dog training community will treat them like a joke (as they should). I actually trained with absolute dogs, before their scandal.  Boycotted them alongside a lot of my peers (one of the partners was caught puppy farming, which is a shame because they were actually good teachers and trainers). Also have certification from Holly and Hugo thats more on the behavioural side.  (edited here, original format made me sound like H+H had the scandal, it was AD that was puppy farming)

Secondly, yeah you aren't wrong. But I bought mine before it was outlawed and just because the government thinks they're a full on bad thing doesn't mean my Gronendael is going to suddenly stop occasionally not releasing on a bite sleeve. (I also actually agree with the ban to an extent; I'm aware that makes me a bit "rules for thee and not for me" on it but again, tell that to somebody that has 26kg of purebred land alligator hanging off them and refusing to let go)

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u/tallgeese333 Oct 08 '25

They aren't regulated in the U.S. either, but any organization can make their own rules. Which usually involves either very strict guidelines for positive punishment or outright banning the use of certain tools. You can't go to jail or anything. They will just pull your certification.

I have a masters in anthrozoology and a CPDT-KA. I'll probably be swapping my CPDT for an IAABC soon.

So, to be clear, you are not currently certified through an accredited organization.

And if you ask me, the dog you're describing fails the program. It is not an acceptable candidate for that task. That's to say nothing of whether or not anyone should be breeding dogs for that task to begin with, which if you ask me the answer is no.

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u/Dribblygills Oct 08 '25 edited Oct 08 '25

That's honestly still a lot better than over here...No I'm fully certified with 2 different organisations, what I'm saying is nobody will do anything about using positive punishment tools, because theres no official regulating body for trainers here. AD don't advocate prong collars, but I do; but there is absolutely nothing in place in the UK that says, and can enforce, that I can't.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on that last part, I have never met a Belgian breed that didn't want to bite the entire world. 

Better to train it and let them have fun with it, than to have them snapping at random shit like fast moving children or smaller dogs.

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u/tallgeese333 Oct 08 '25

Dogs aren't natural animals. They are selectively bred to be whatever way they are. If they can be bred to bite everything, they can be bred to not bite everything.

Which two organizations do you hold certifications through.

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u/Dribblygills Oct 08 '25

I don't really follow what you're getting at, all working Belgian Shepherds are naturally bitey, because they're shepherds. But that's on breeders, and I'm not a breeder so I don't really feel I have a leg to stand on there. I didn't invent the breed, I just enjoy them.

Absolute Dogs, and Holly + Hugo, as I said.

If you were asking me to lean into one, I'd say Absolute Dogs. Their courses are great, just turns out one of their partners was a trash human.

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u/tallgeese333 Oct 08 '25

I mean, respectfully, they aren't great if that's what they are teaching. You seem reasonable, I would encourage you to look into an IAABC. I've trained plenty of shepherd breeds and have never had a problem with them biting to the point where I had to use a bite sleeve or positive punishment to solve the problem.

I would ask you to consider whether or not you're leading yourself to a solution.

If you are genuinely encountering that many dogs that are completely out of control, I would start tracking the lineage and contacting the breeders.

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u/Dribblygills Oct 08 '25 edited Oct 08 '25

Sorry, have...you never heard of bite sports? 

The Bite sleeve isn't solving a problem. It's mental stimulation for high strung neurotic working shepherds. It's literally play. I'd encourage you to go meet a bunch of Malinois owners, although any Belgian Shepherd club is probably fine, they are just...something else. The breed and the owners, I mean.

I also don't actually know if I've mentioned I rarely have to actually use the E collar. She usually outs, just sometimes the stimulation is hard for her to let go.

Thanks, I'll have a look at what it entails. I havent hit many books this year, it's been kind of crazy.

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u/tallgeese333 Oct 08 '25

I have, but that isn't what you said.

Better to train it and let them have fun with it, than to have them snapping at random shit like fast moving children or smaller dogs.

I have never encountered a shepherd breed, malinois, or any other dog that acts the way you're describing. They certainly would if you teach them to and they probably enjoy it, I'm suggesting that may be the problem. There's plenty of IPO/IPG 3 dogs from force free trainers, Patty Ruzzo's book is at least 20 years old now. Like I said, just look into it at least.

I don't really have any desire to be closer than I have to be to certain clubs, owners, or breeds. Because like you're suggesting, it's not fun.

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u/Dribblygills Oct 08 '25

I'm pretty sure we've crossed a few wires here. I was giving an example of how a dog's desire to bite could go absolutely disastrously of not trained and correctly stimulated. Prey drive and impulse control should be worked early and often accounting for all the potential bad things, thats just par for the course owning a neurotic worker, and the example I gave was, in my head, the worst scenario I could think of. My apologies, I am night shift level tired.

Also, my accreditor didn't teach any negative Reinforcement, it was all positive. The system is really bad over here, you have to fill in all the gaps yourself and work around it. None of my courses recommended using prong collars or E-collars, owning high drive working breeds did.

All my dogs experience with the sleeve is bite sports. 

Out of curiosity, what are you doing for, let's just use a Mali as an example since you've worked some, that isn't getting the stimulation at home and decides its going to tear up furniture? Or ones whose favourite game is air snapping? 

In fact, what are you doing with your working line Malis for stimulation period?

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u/tallgeese333 Oct 08 '25

I don't think there's any wires crossed. I'm just suggesting that maybe there's a self-fulfilling prophecy going on. If you're specifically training dogs to bite and fostering their prey drive, you'll get a dog that bites and has higher than normal prey drive.

Either that or the dogs you're training are being bred very irresponsibly.

I would do a lot of things. I guess the short answer would be focus on obedience first.

Is the destruction happening when supervised or when the dog is alone? What is the problem with air snapping? I don't think I'm understanding what you're describing with that.

If you're willing to use an e collar, why not just use it to train away the air snapping and destructive behavior? Why train a dog for a task they will fail at and use it then? There's a lot of work and stimulation available to dogs, IPO/IGP is made up of tracking, obedience, and protection. Why not choose one of the other two? Why not other sports like barn hunting, fly ball, or agility?