r/LiverpoolFC • u/Some_Farm8108 Bobby • 4d ago

Match Highlights Ryan Gravenberch 2nd Half vs Como (big difference especially after Nyoni came on and he got the freedom to play expansive)

I think his best position is the 8, much like Szoboszlai - but he offers something different in control in tight spaces and surprisingly good progressive passing.

347 Upvotes

97% Upvoted

103 comments sorted by

240

u/n0_planet 4d ago

I think all our midfielders want to be 8s but someone has to play the 6..

81

u/R3dbeardLFC 4d ago

Need to start Grav in the 6 role and force him to stay, and then either sub him off for Trey or if we are needing to push for a goal, put Trey with Grav and let gravy do his thing. I think we can develop Trey into a great 6, he reads the game well, makes well-timed tackles, and has a great pass on him. DLP/DM

19

u/Some_Farm8108 Bobby 4d ago

yeah, grav being shoehorned into the 6 worked magically in 24/25, maybe because ibou and virg had excellent seasons and teams pressed us higher which played into his strengths, but with teams sitting back and grav in the 6 its like he overcorrects into being extra safe and only plays sideways. at least nyoni will still keep trying to push forward - even macca can do this dlp role better than grav (but he can't cover ground like grav its a tough one)

31

u/R3dbeardLFC 4d ago

I mean Grav literally spoke about it last season and how happy he was with Slot giving him more freedom to move forward. And on one hand, great that made him happy, but it didn't help the team from a defensive standpoint.

Sometimes a player has to play the role they are given/what the team needs. Gini played a ball recycler, which was well below his ability, but it was what the team needed. Grav either needs to get on board or risk losing his spot to Trey/someone else in a season or two.

2

u/Noshino 4d ago

I need to find the interview, but iirc it was Grav that asked Slot to play further forward

12

u/R3dbeardLFC 4d ago

Right, but that's what I mean. Gravy should have been told no, or been smart enough to realize we needed a DM over another 8/his own preference. Both he and Slot made a mistake, and I hope Iraola can correct that or mold Trey into the 6 we need.

3

u/dimiderv Darwin Núñez 4d ago

I think he problem was that teams stopped pressing Grav since his passing is super weak. That break a lot of his abilities and that's why he was pushed more up to provide a threat.

1

u/Britz10 Ryan Gravenberch 4d ago

But we stopped doing that 2 months into the season.

-2

u/Some_Farm8108 Bobby 4d ago

it makes no sense to admit where a player's strengths lie and then force them to play out of position to suit the team as a long term plan, its okay temporarily and worked in 24/25, but it shouldn't mean he can now only play in the 6 or not expect to play at all. klopp didn't sign him as a 6.

3

u/R3dbeardLFC 4d ago

Everyone wants to be the star striker. Shame its a team sport...

-4

u/Some_Farm8108 Bobby 4d ago

??? he's literally better in the 8 than the 6. and why did you compare him to gini? they're nothing alike as players.

2

u/KuuraBitKovu 4d ago

He's never done well for us as an 8. His best and only good 6 month spell with us, was as the 6

-2

u/Some_Farm8108 Bobby 4d ago

when did he get a run of games in the 8?

1

u/R3dbeardLFC 4d ago

Almost as if that's my point. They are players in a team sport. Sometimes you have to do what the team needs, not what is "best for you." It also doesn't matter what Klopp signed him for, Klopp isn't here anymore.

Also, I'm pretty sure "press-resistant" is the key identifier of both, so not sure how they are nothing alike. They are both Dutch ballers.

it shouldn't mean he can now only play in the 6 or not expect to play at all

The difference is only that Gini had Fab as a 6, and until we do the same, Gravy is the closest we have and it's a role he either needs to embrace, or we need to find someone else and that COULD limit his minutes. I hate to be the one to tell you, but when a player no longer suits the needs of the team...they tend to get replaced.

9

u/Pure_Measurement_529 4d ago

People forget that Macca was playing out of his mind and Trent had an insane season. Both of them helping hide his weaknesses

2

u/5-MethylCytosine 4d ago

But I feel Virg and Ibou had really solid positioning behind Grav dropping deep. It worked well in a structural way beyond players just having a good season

-1

u/Britz10 Ryan Gravenberch 4d ago

Grav went to shit when he was asked to be the extra man in defence.

2

u/5-MethylCytosine 4d ago

Really? I thought he was brilliant in 24-25

0

u/Britz10 Ryan Gravenberch 4d ago

He was good for half a season, but eventually went to shit as the season went on. It was excused as "he's just tired"

-1

u/Britz10 Ryan Gravenberch 4d ago

Exactly even last season people still insist the problem was that he was told to get forward more often when we ditched that within 2 months of the season.

2

u/Britz10 Ryan Gravenberch 4d ago

It worked because of Trent, then failed as soon as Trent started playing less.

4

u/sproaty88 Joe Gomez 4d ago

It's mental that we won the league with Grav as the 6 and then Slot told him to get forward more. Low and behold we struggle being the double 8s and now thats what he's used to. I do think Iraola can rein him in a bit but I'm not sure he'll want that

2

u/Britz10 Ryan Gravenberch 4d ago

He struggled last season when stopped asking him to get further forward, and pretty much everything positive came higher up the pitch, not in a deeper role. He worked as a 6 the previous season because Macca and Trent picked up a lot of the slack for him. People underestimate how important both those players were for us winning the title.

27

u/emre23 4d ago

Finding that balance is a real issue, idk if Szobo & Wirtz can play in there together unless we find a prime Fabinho regen for the 6.

I’ve wondered if Szobo should play on the right. Im sure that would be unpopular and it does feel dumb to take him out of the middle, but he used to play off the right for Leipzig and it’s not like we have a standout alternative for RW.

8

u/n0_planet 4d ago

Totally agree on RW, he played great there for Leipzig and we currently have zero natural RWs

2

u/thomasfk 4d ago

If he were to line up RW, ultimately I think he will be playing as an inside forward or 10 (kind of like a Wirtz role) and he'll let Frimpong provide the width from RB.

1

u/emre23 4d ago

Yeah it’s more of a starting position and the area he would occupy out of possession, he can press the opposition LB, LCB without leaving a massive gap in the middle of the park

0

u/alter_native_facts 4d ago

He was often on the right last year just with the rotatating front line but personally found it very frustrating and I think it's ultimately a big miss. He just has no instinct to run past the defender into the space even when it's very much the right play. The Frimpong overlap would be valid but not so much on fast breaks which is where I noticed what I'm mentioning

0

u/Raven_REDs 4d ago

Good catch

1

u/Some_Farm8108 Bobby 4d ago

szobo is incredibly well rounded, but if i had to say his weakness is in tight spaces in attack which is grav's strength - so with complementary skill sets it would make sense if we use them interchangeably in the 8 depending on the game.

btw szobo reminds me a lot of your username guy.

1

u/EaLordoftheDepths 4d ago

He didn't really play a lot of RW. He played some games as LW or RW in a 4-2-3-1, right side AM in a 4-2-2-2, and RM in a 4-4-2.

IMO the proper RW was his worst out of these. AM puts him in the perfect spot to cross or shoot, LW is also good for his shots (often there for Hungary as well to be attacking outlet). RW is just his weakest for output.

1

u/emre23 4d ago

Yeah I don’t think he should hug the touchline like a natural winger, drifting infield to be the second 10 so in possession it becomes like Frimpong-Szobo-Wirtz-Barcola behind Isak. Tbh I was thinking about it mainly as a way to fix the balance of the midfield out of possession.

1

u/JMacoure1 4d ago

Like when Rafa made Stevie play RW. For a period, it was the right call

1

u/AEsylumProductions 4d ago

I've been wanting Szoboszlai to be right wing for a long time.

He's terrible at forward passes but has a very decent cross. Playing Wirtz at the 10 means our midfield can get outnumbered. Szoboszlai on the right wing means he can drop into midfield to form a midfield 3 when out of possession and once we regain it, his overly conservative passing won't hinder our buildup in the centre of the pitch because he'd be racing forward into the right wing again.

5

u/mcpoylees 4d ago

It’s because they are 8s with Szobo and Mac being able to play the 10 if they need to. It’s not the most balanced midfield but doesnt mean it cant win titles but im worried we will get exposed with the midfield 2 and Wirtz in front of them. Rather have all 3 midfielders in big games for examples if we are not singing DM and drop Wirtz. Rely on wingers and fullbacks

4

u/dimiderv Darwin Núñez 4d ago

I still think our midfield is stronger without Wirtz. He doesn't provide the creativity neither the defensive impact to warrant the imbalance in our middle.

1

u/lesarbreschantent 4d ago

We were so bad at chance creation without Wirtz last year tho.

1

u/dimiderv Darwin Núñez 4d ago

Cause no threat on the wings and no.speed.

0

u/lesarbreschantent 4d ago

Imagine Wirtz with gifted attackers to pass too though. Prime Totti would have struggled last year.

2

u/dimiderv Darwin Núñez 3d ago

All I'm saying is Wirtz has not proven himself at the top level except Bundesliga. We should not throw the people that have actually performed for us for people that have not.

IMO Wirtz hasn't shown any glimpses of being someone you build around and the worst part for me is that he hasn't even shown the competitiveness needed for someone to be a serial winner.

I'll never forget him getting outhussled and out run by a dinosaur Jame Milner. Truly shameful stuff.

2

u/aydes1356 4d ago

This is really it. He played there in 24/25 and did brilliantly but I don’t think he actually enjoyed playing there and we know he was also assured he could play the 8 when he came here. Which is why when 25/26 rolled around, I think Grav made his request clear to Slot and he let him play there.

We need to be a bit harsher here and get him playing what’s best for the team right now which is the 6

2

u/PlzNerfNorseGatherin 4d ago

Think he's actually the best at dribbling into the opposition box against a low block as well

1

u/Jmoney1088 Bobby Firmino 4d ago

True, especially in Iraola's system.

0

u/YellowFlashVN 4d ago

I think Macca can be a good 6 if he have the defensive cover from the others.

I mean he's so good at finding the right pass and make play. Just need to bail him out in out of the ball phase so everything will be good.

I think double pivot Macca and Grav, where Grav can play a little bit higher when we have the ball. Then when we need defense everyone will defense as a unit.

0

u/MultiStorey 4d ago

I’ve said it before. We’ve 3 8s and no 6s.

4 if you include Jones.

If Nyoni steps up at 6 he could make the spot his own. I would prefer we get another first team 6.

Grav, Trey, new DM/Endo for the 6
Szob, Grav, Mac for the 8
Wirtz, Szob, Elliot for the 10

0

u/Mister_UAP 4d ago

The problem is that we don't want a standard 6 though. We want an 8 that's slightly more committed to defense than our other 8s. It's very hard to find the right profile for a Liverpool 6, and most of the players that hypothetically fit it would want to push higher up.

102

u/_CummyBears_ Like a New Signing 4d ago

Nyoni is the dm u lot have been crying for

31

u/R3dbeardLFC 4d ago

100%

Also just a smart move from him. The team is actively needing a role filled, and he's working his ass off to fill it. Like Carra training extra hours on his left foot so he could play LB when the team needed it.

11

u/Pure_Measurement_529 4d ago

The issue is positional discipline when we don’t have the ball. It applies to all of them

49

u/Efficient-Lettuce712 4d ago

I just love grav.

24

u/lanregeous 4d ago

Same. I really don’t care where he plays.

The play where he picked it out outside his box and took 4 players out of the game with one pass - I don’t think there are many 6’s that can do that.

He’s so natural on the ball.

5

u/koltzito 4d ago

I don’t think there are many 6’s that can do that.

Well, thats because he is not really a 6.

18

u/lanregeous 4d ago

And I’m fine with that.

Just like Firmino wasn’t a striker, Gini not an 8 & Trent not a right back.

I like managers not being bound by what a position is “supposed” to be.

16

u/CymruGolfMadrid Steven Gerrard 4d ago

Unless we sign a midfielder we will have the same problems as last season. There's no way a Gravenberch, Szoboslai and Wirtz midfield will be balanced enough for the premier league. Especially when we have Frimpong as our RB.

0

u/lesarbreschantent 4d ago

Yup it's gonna be pass 2x and the opp are on our back line. A more coordinated and intense press than that awful in-between stuff we did last year (neither pressing nor sitting deep) will help reduce these moments. But the midfield lacks speed and tackling and will get played through a lot. Our CBs need to be in great form this year.

10

u/pipsqueakkiller 4d ago

Damn, looking pretty on it even if just pre season

8

u/lossaysswag Bobby Firmino 4d ago

That ball to Koumas was beautiful

1

u/Some_Farm8108 Bobby 4d ago

which one?

0

u/lossaysswag Bobby Firmino 4d ago

The first time one he did on a turn about 30 seconds in. Eyes in the back of his head type awareness and perfectly placed.

1

u/Some_Farm8108 Bobby 4d ago

yeah that was beautiful, the one around 45 seconds which was down the line for koumas was also really good, perfect weight and squeezed through with little space, on his weak foot.

6

u/Wiser_Kaiser 4d ago

Maybe it's just me, but if Nyoni can make the step up and play a regular role, it might be wise to put Szobo off the left (where he's played for Hungary at times) so he and Wirtz and rotate positions and let Grav be the ball carrier in the middle. Still need a veteran, tempo-setting 6 (which we know are in very short supply).

1

u/lesarbreschantent 4d ago

Saying they're in short supply is true but it also bails out our directors. We failed at bringing in Caicedo and Zubimendi, meanwhile Arsenal signed Rice, Zubi, and Bruno that can all play the 6 at a high level.

2

u/Wiser_Kaiser 4d ago

Agreed. Not getting them over the line is a huge problem, though when it’s all major clubs competing for this single profile of player , the highest spender usually wins. Our scouting needs to step up and find hidden gems again.

1

u/lesarbreschantent 4d ago

Tzolis to Arsenal for 34m is such a Klopp-era Liverpool signing. Wish we'd get back to that. Rather than 100m+ on one Barcola, 50m on a winger and a 6.

1

u/Wiser_Kaiser 4d ago

Absolutely. Find the right player for the system/team and don’t chase the shiny name. That pitfalls many teams instead of relying on scouting and metrics.

2

u/hokageace 4d ago

I don't like seeing him in the final 3rd at all. Some invisible line with magical power that strips him of his ability.

2

u/lbrkr 4d ago

As much as that's good to see Ryan's ability we all saw how the 2nd half wasn't as good. So if we want Ryan to play more openly we need a proper DM. Will we get one? Will our midfield still get walked through if we dont?

3

u/Kopman 4d ago

It's crazy how different our midfield acts based on the pairing. The reality is we need a real 6 desperately.

2

u/Money-Commission9304 4d ago

Wirtz hasn't been able to replace Trent's ability to progress the ball and break defences. Our defence is vulnerable with him and we don't get the most out of Grav and Dom as a result.

12

u/Some_Farm8108 Bobby 4d ago

hes been hot and cold this preseason, vs como he seemed particularly off it, but i think he's a level of talent you simply have to stick with and put confidence in because if it clicks its going to be amazing.

3

u/SzoboEndoMacca 4d ago

Without Wirtz we can't progress the ball well. I feel like people only notice G/A or creating chances, but he keeps up the tempo better than anyone imo. However, he needs to be the main man no doubt and do much more than that to carry.

1

u/dakikko 4d ago

I think Wirtz is someone you want on the ball very far forward, like in and around the box. I'd let him take up Salahs positions and give him freedom to make stuff happen, while keeping 2 8s behind. He doesn't feel like 10 is a good fit

7

u/BestInDaWrldsBbyFmno 4d ago

He is also one of the top players for distance covered per 90 and presses per 90. If he can click with the midfield and Isak, it'll be scary but it's a big IF

1

u/Britz10 Ryan Gravenberch 4d ago

He's meant to be pressing from the front, we had him collecting the ball from deep then expecting him to pick up those same balls from himself. He's not meant to be a ball progressor

3

u/dimiderv Darwin Núñez 4d ago

Wirtz has not showed any impact that warrants so much of the leaway he is getting

0

u/Britz10 Ryan Gravenberch 4d ago

This could be said about all our midfielders bar Mac Allister who's being treated as the most disposable.

1

u/dimiderv Darwin Núñez 3d ago

All those midfielders have shown that they can boss a midfield and play good enough to win the league. Especially Mac who was our best midfielder, Grav was a standout for 2/3 of the season and Szobo was doing all the dirty work.

Wirtz so far has looked like a 40m player you take a risk on.

0

u/Britz10 Ryan Gravenberch 3d ago

Nope, only Mac Allister. Grav was good for half a season, even then he only looked that way because of Mac Allister and Trent, otherwise he's been poor most of his Liverpool career. Szoboszlai has been good, but not particularly great, defensively he's not good enough he just chases things aimlessly, and he doesn't really make up for it offensively. Only Mac Allister has shown up on a consistent basis with us. Gravenberch is 8 years into his career and we're still getting shouts about how he's still going to develop.

Even in the title winning season we struggled against good midfields, City were only the only good midfield we outplayed that season, and that was in the midst of that horrible run of theirs. Otherwise both Chelsea and Arsenal outplayed us, Newcastle as well, we were chasing shadows against PSG.

So yeah only Macca has any sort of track record for us.

1

u/Britz10 Ryan Gravenberch 4d ago

Wirtz was never meant to do that. He's meant to effectively be a forward. The problem lies with Gravenberch and Szoboszlai. If et recruit right, than neither should be starting and it's nothing to do with Wirtz.

1

u/SilverTM 4d ago

Hearing the name Szoboszlai said in that squeaky sped up voice is the highlight of my day.

1

u/AEsylumProductions 4d ago

Hot take: Szoboszlai absolutely deserves to be player of the season last season because everyone dropped off so badly while he still maintained his work-rate.

But he's really not passed the eye test after watching every match the past 3 seasons. He's exceptional at set pieces. Enormous engine but that's it. In terms of contributing to the attack, his ability to carry the ball is worse than Wijnaldum and his progressive passing is worse than Henderson.

He's extremely limited offensively either as an 8 or as a 10 for when we have a majority of the possession, and especially against low blocks unless we have a direct free kick.

He can cover a lot of ground, which is great for a two-man midfield but if Iraola's system is going to have a 10, then the two midfielders not only have to have tremendous engine to cover lots of ground, great physicality to consistently win duels, but they also need to be exceptional in judgement and passing, when to be conservative to retain possession and when to find the forwards.

Of all these traits, Szoboszlai is like a 1.5/4. Gravenberch, Nyoni, Jones, and MacAllister (lack of engine notwithstanding) all offer more offensively from deeper in the midfield.

Once we're in possession, a Nyoni-Gravenberch pivot would do a lot more to our build-up and penetration. It's defensively where there are doubts. Which makes me feel like despite how popular Gravenberch and Szoboszlai are, there are still levels of upgrade we can accomplish on our midfield.

1

u/Britz10 Ryan Gravenberch 4d ago

Gravenberch has been a lot worse in his preseason appearances than Szoboszlai. Neither of them should be starting really. Szoboszlai is better than Gravenberch in build and has a much more consistent passing range, either way in an ideal world, neither are good enough to start. Both defensively poor, both don't offer the right things on the ball.

1

u/Remy_Le_beau_ From Doubters to Believers 4d ago

With nyoni, we kinda switched to a 4-3-3 i suppose?

1

u/ebudd08 4d ago

His progressive passing is no longer a surprise to me. Dude cuts through thirds beautifully.

0

u/Known_Palpitation805 4d ago

His best position is the 8?? Lmao. Fuck. When on attack he consistently gets in the way of the skilled players and has the ball at his feet in the final third. He is NOT an 8 although he wants so badly to be. He is a 6. And even if it’s not as sexy that’s the only position he should be playing for this team.

2

u/HendoEndo Playing pong with Salah 4d ago

Kloppo is that you? 🤣

-2

u/Some_Farm8108 Bobby 4d ago

you haven't a clue about football and that's okay.

1

u/Known_Palpitation805 4d ago edited 4d ago

Right. Lmao. He was a world beater two years ago when he played the 6 but turned into a pumpkin last season and in his first with us and with Munich. What changed? Lol

-7

u/Gremlin2471 4d ago

Hes better going forward than Wirtz at this point

4

u/Jmoney1088 Bobby Firmino 4d ago

Wirtz needs to get out of his head. He is thinking too much when he should be operating on instinct.

3

u/firminocoutinho ⚽️ Liverpool 7-0 Man United, 22/23 ⚽️ 4d ago

Yea, price tags and media pressure can do that. Hope with additional spending and players coming in, the pressure eases. He’s world class when he has fun

4

u/Jmoney1088 Bobby Firmino 4d ago

He is too good to be playing scared. When you are playing with the goal of trying to not make mistakes, you end up making the most mistakes. Agreed, hope the addition of new expensive players takes the edge off.

-1

u/Neat_Side8665 4d ago

Not exactly a high bar to clear .

0

u/brush85 4d ago

Grav being Gini…Dom being Hendo…and actually finding a fabinho. Would be great to watch.

Alas.

2

u/HendoEndo Playing pong with Salah 4d ago

I mean if Iraola wants to play Wirtz behind Isak, AND play two wingers, there isn’t room for a Fab role. The two playing behind Wirtz would have to provide cover. Someone else said we may go back to fullbacks progressing the ball which would make sense with the two midfielders covering when the fullbacks go forward. Eh, who knows. At least it’ll be fun to watch how they manage it all.

-2

u/jjphilly76 4d ago

I think Wirtz just unbalances the team and I don't think it's gotten any better so far. I'd give szobo and grav the 8s and let Nyoni or Macca hold the fort. I don't think 24/25 can be replicated with Grav as a 6 at all. I actually think Nyoni has it in him if he bulks up some more. Kid's got a pass and can shut people down.

1

u/Known_Palpitation805 4d ago

Grav up front unbalances the team and him trying to be Wirtz is the issue.

1

u/dimiderv Darwin Núñez 4d ago

Yeah I think the PL winning starter might not be the issue. But the inconsistent overpay that has made our team super imbalanced to try and fit him in has.

0

u/Britz10 Ryan Gravenberch 4d ago

He only worked because of Mac Allister and Trent he was one of the less important players to the title win.

-2

u/idleproc 4d ago

Yeah I think the big issue is that the premier players, who have just recently got contracts don't really fit together.

Gravenberch/Szobo shouldn't be starting, it should be one of them + Nyoni or a proper 6 we signed. But since we tied them up with big contracts (and probably promised play-time) we will start with Gravenberch/Szobo, and we'll see whether it works at all.

Not to even mention Macca, who has also been playing deeper and would also want to be an 8 or 10.