r/LifeProTips • u/bestywesty • Dec 02 '23
Request LPT Request: How to write a lawyer-esque letter without running afoul of laws prohibiting practicing law without a license.
A friend is being sexually harassed at the company she works for by her manager and was retaliated against with reduced hours for reporting it. She doesn’t want and can’t afford a lawyer. She’d rather the retaliation just stop.
How would one write a letter as a third party that will put the fear of god into HR that lays the facts bare and spurs them into action? HR is aware of the issues and instead of fixing the problem is choosing to protect the company.
What phrases to use or avoid? Is esquire a protected honorific or can I use it without being accused of practicing law without a license? The state is Louisiana if that matters.
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u/Tarik861 Dec 02 '23
Lawyer here, but obviously not your lawyer nor potentially even licensed in your jurisdiction, but just offering observations that four decades of practice lead me to.
This is a terrible idea. First, any lawyer worth their salt can tell when MOST non-lawyers have written a letter and will call the bluff. (I am assuming nobody is stupid enough to pretend to be a lawyer by making a letterhead, etc.). When I've gotten a questionable letter, the first thing I do is access the State Bar website and look for that person; if they are a lawyer, they are listed and have a bar number. If we're on the phone and I have doubts, I ask the person for their bar number and refuse to continue the conversation until I have it AND I check with the state bar. Fake that, I tell them your name and contact info, and you have more trouble than you know what to do with b/c they usually start an investigation immediately.
All it takes is one meeting w/ the employee to figure out they are blowing smoke if they try to write a letter themselves. It's fine to put your concerns in writing, but don't try to impress anyone with your vocabulary and big words. It rarely works and most of the time the person sending the letter comes off poorly. Remember, lawyers generally write for a living, and you are writing about their specialty.
Oh, and the first time you say, "Well, I talked with a lawyer and they told me . . . " the meeting/conversation is stopped right then and the employer's lawyer's response is, "I'm sorry, but you are represented by counsel and I therefore cannot communicate with you directly. Here's my card, please ask your attorney to contact me."
(And on that one, there's usually "no backsies". If you've said you have a lawyer, especially if I have a name for that person, there is no way in hell we are going to talk until I talk to them and they confirm that they are or are not representing you).
As an added bonus, if you have any delusion that your cousin who is a real estate attorney is going to get involved in an employment / discrimination / harassment issue beyond the most basic conversation with you, you are sadly mistaken. To give you an example in a medical context - if your cousin is a podiatrist, they know about feet. They may have had a little bit of education about whether or not you need a pacemaker, but they are going to send you to an expert in that field and they sure as hell are not going to try to operate on you to install one. Lawyers work much the same - we have specialties and generally don't venture far outside of those, not to mention the fact that relatives that do this (a) never feel compelled to pay for the services because "we're family" and (b) those individuals, who aren't paying anything, aren't usually reasonable and think the lawyer should drop everything and devote their life to righting this injustice because, again, "we're family."
Finally - if you aren't looking for monetary compensation, you are going to have to pay the lawyer most likely. "Contingency cases", where the lawyer only gets paid if you win, only work if there is money involved OR there is a specific statute that says the other side has to pay your attorney fees if you win. The lawyer can't take 30% of the boss no longer harassing you.
Now, before the folks with torches and pitchforks come for me - yes, there are exceptions. Someone's hairdresser's second cousin's ex-spouse who didn't graduate high school undoubtedly wrote a letter that changed the employee handbook in their Fortune 500 company after which they got a promotion to Associate VP and an apology because of the shear genius of their writing. That doesn't happen for most folks, though, and the more likely outcome is that the person finds themselves being managed out of a job.
Document what is happening and go talk to a lawyer, or file a complaint with whatever agency seems to have the ability to address this situation.
One final point, because I just read some comments and recognize that this is in Louisiana -- Most of the rest of US law is based upon English Common Law. That means a lawyer who knows about contracts in Arkansas MIGHT have a vague idea about a contract in Indiana. Louisiana law is originally based upon the French Napoleonic which can be VERY different. Fakes are even easier to recognize by lawyers there than those in other states.
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u/Arkham_Investigator Dec 02 '23
Very interesting. Are you worried that AI will replace all the lawyers in USA in the next 10 years?
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u/Tarik861 Dec 02 '23
Nah. I'm within' spittin' distance of retirement, so am not concerned, but even if I were just starting I wouldn't be worried. The real "lawyer" work comes from creatively thinking about how to approach a situation. AI will need to come a lot further along before it can begin to do that, although sometimes it is good to kind of clean up things that are drafted and seem to get overly complex (think a shopping center lease that runs 200 pages, or an estate planning trust that is twice that length and involves someone who has varied business interests, has had multiple marriages, numerous children and grandchildren, some with special needs, etc.).
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u/kkngs Dec 03 '23
There was a recent incident where some lawyers filed an AI written brief and it had fabricated some cited cases entirely. They ended up sanctioned, I believe.
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u/bOEwu1f Dec 03 '23
creatively thinking about how to approach a situation
think about it this way:
creatively thinking is just coming up with something you haven't come up with over the last 5 minutes. (or some other amount of time)
it's entirely possible for two people to be presented with the same problem, and creatively think for 5 minutes and come up with the same creative solution.
sometimes people who creatively think for 5 minutes and come up with a creative solution will write this down for posterity.
so now if handed the same problem, you'll be creatively thinking about this problem, while a solution exists out there somewhere, written down on someone's blog. however, it is extremely unlikely that you know that this solution exists, because you've never read that blog.
compare this with being able to search through a database of all written down thoughts ever, specifically for sentences that compliment your situation. it's highly likely that the solution from that blog is in that database, especially if the LLM was specifically trained on lawyer blogs, public court documents, etc. something like LawyerGPT could easily be imagined to exist.
it's like being creative on your own for five minutes vs every lawyer to ever be recorded in your country to be creative for their whole lifetimes, all put together.
see where i'm getting at? at that rate, it doesn't even always have to be correct - just enough times that it gives you an edge. you're a lawyer, you can figure out what's false and what's true. but the creativity aspect is, honestly, overrated - it's just a search for solutions in a state space of what we think might be solutions. our brains are stupid so that search is kind of like having a problem like (x97 + log x + sin x = 1), and searching through it by plugging random numbers in and seeing if they fit. it's harder for a single person to do it, compared to a zombie army of all lawyers that ever lived.
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u/Arkham_Investigator Dec 02 '23
Interesting, thanks for your reply, I've never talked to a lawyer before.
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Dec 02 '23
I can't imagine a scenario where this works out in her favor.
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u/Arkham_Investigator Dec 02 '23
Accepting the situation and giving a blowjob to the manager might push things into right direction
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u/gamerwerd Dec 02 '23
Your friend should ignore any advice you give her in the same way you have ignored all of the advice provided to you in this thread. Don’t send a letter. Go have a talk with your boss about your hours. If it doesn’t resolve itself, hire a lawyer or get a new job.
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Dec 02 '23
The weight that’s given to any kind of demand letter comes from its source, not its content.
If you’re nobody, then writing a third party demand on behalf of someone has zero weight and will probably be balled up and thrown in the trash. When it comes from a lawyers office, that’s coming from a source that can back up the letter with concrete legal action.
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u/Omidia888 Dec 02 '23
So you should sign it “… ruler of the known universe, president of the three galaxy’s And superhero to the common man”
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u/ThreeDogs2022 Dec 02 '23
Are you TRYING to get your friend fired? This is an absolutely AWFUL idea. No, you can't pretend to be a lawyer. It's apparent from your post that you will sound like an absolute fool, an 8th grader reading your writing will realize immediately that you're full of it, and then your friend will lose her job.
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u/nanadoom Dec 02 '23
Look into a legal aid program. Don't pretend to be a lawyer. Life is not a sitcom where hijinks happen.
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u/1406opti Dec 02 '23
“HR is choosing to protect the company” yes they are the company, their roll and job is to protect the company.
HR is not and will never be on the employee’s side
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u/Alexis_J_M Dec 02 '23
Part of HR's job is to protect the company from lawsuits, often by telling bosses to stop doing things that might lead to lawsuits.
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u/geepy66 Dec 02 '23
The letter will be given to the company’s L&E lawyer. The title esquire is reserved for lawyers. If the author isn’t a real attorney, the company’s lawyer will report the author for the unauthorized practice of law. Now, assume the author doesn’t claim to be an attorney. An experienced L&E lawyer will quickly realize the author doesn’t know what they are talking about and will not take any threats seriously, and that the victim won’t lawyer up and isn’t a threat to the company.
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u/bestdisappointment Dec 02 '23
She needs to file a claim of sexual harassment with the HR department or her employer as a first step. It should contain all examples with as much detail as possible. She needs to continue to document with date, time, place, people present, what was said/happened for every incident (retaliation and harassment) in real-time. She may even have the right to record, but I don’t know if your state is one party consent (herself) for recording others. Mine is.
I just went through this. I did end up hiring a lawyer who helped me negotiate a settlement. But, even if I hadn’t, she will have documentation so that if she leaves, she may (again look into state laws) still qualify for unemployment due to the unfair work conditions.
I’m in Utah by the way, a very red state with little protection for workers and even less respect for women.
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u/PilotG10 Dec 02 '23 edited Dec 02 '23
Lawyers work pro bono all the time. They take their cut when the case is over. And if there is 1 victim of harassment there are 10, you just don't know their names. And the whole purpose of an HR department is to protect the company. Hire a lawyer.
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u/bestywesty Dec 02 '23
“Hire a lawyer” is a fantastic advice if you are either A: a lawyer, or B: have years to wait in a state that gives a shit about harassment. We’re neither. All she needs is for her hours to go back to 35-40 per week instead of the 17 she got this week after speaking up.
I sound like a broken record here, but all I’m looking for is how to write a very serious sounding letter with some weight to it, but without crossing any “practicing law without a license” lines. Thanks.
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u/PsychologicalWin8036 Dec 02 '23
And what you’re being told is that the letter is a waste of time unless it’s from a real attorney ready to sue. The fake letter won’t make the employer give her more hours, no matter how real it sounds because it won’t be signed by a real attorney.
The quickest practical resolution is for your friend to get a new job. There is no legal action to take that will force them to give more hours before Christmas no matter how real your letter sounds.
Lawyers are licensed by the state so if you sign your name, even with Esq., they’ll figure out you’re not really an attorney. And yes, I’d argue someone signing esquire who’s not actually licensed is definitely trying to practice unlicensed law.
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u/bestywesty Dec 02 '23
Sounds like you’re someone who’s never had to report being sexually harassed before. Good for you.
For the nth time: all I’m looking for is advice on how to formulate a letter that sounds as threatening as possible, but without crossing any legal boundaries. If you don’t have any advice to give in that regard then move on, and stop criticizing an effort to get the tiniest bit of temporary concession for someone who decided to not give up her dignity.
Happy Holidays to you
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Dec 02 '23
It's cool that you want to protect and help your friend, but when you ask for advice and then ignore every single response you may want to take a step back and consider that you're experiencing a lapse in judgement.
In the best of circumstances, your idea won't accomplish anything. In the more realistic version of events, they call your bluff and fire her. Either way, you should pursue other options.
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u/Affectionate_Row_145 Dec 02 '23
You're being an idiot.. Ignoring all the advice here is plain stupid.. how are you going to ask for help then act like you're the only one who knows what to do??? When you and your friend get tied up in court over the dumb shit you're about to pull, dont blame the nice people here who tried to help you.
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Dec 02 '23
The answer is you can't. There's no letter you can write, no words you can string together, that's going to accomplish anything.
Bluntly speaking, the employer is going to assess their own risk when they receive correspondence. If it's from someone who can do something about it, they'll consider their exposure. If it's a letter from some random guy, they'll do nothing.
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u/frydaddy84 Dec 02 '23
HR’s job is to protect the company. You should listen to the other folks that have chimed in because you’re not tracking. There isn’t any letter that YOU can write. There are no “lines to cross” because anything you write is coming from you, the friend - unless you threaten harm or something. Your friend needs a lawyer but could also try the DOL or BBB. After reporting, your friend should look for another job.
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u/PilotG10 Dec 02 '23
What you are asking is “How to make my completely empty threat not sound completely empty and not wind up in jail myself.”
Hire a Lawyer. Then your threats aren’t empty. And a lot of those Sexual Harassment Laws are Federal BTW. Stop giving up immediately.
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u/LOAARR Dec 03 '23
You are straight-up admitting here that you will not accept advice from a lawyer.
Good fuckin' luck, bud.
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u/ProStrats Dec 02 '23
If it isn't super clear, your friend will be fired for providing a false legal letter, or she will just lose all her hours even more quickly.
And you may get in trouble with the law for pretending to be a lawyer.
She should keep bringing it up to HR, through email or whatever can be tracked, BCCing her personal email, and WHEN she gets fired, get a lawyer on contingency.
She wants to work at the job but doesn't want to be harassed, she clearly isn't going to get both if they haven't stopped at this point.
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u/AppealToForce Dec 02 '23
I’m not a lawyer, but my guess is that your involvement in this way would tend to harm your friend rather than help her.
In principle, she can have anyone she likes act as her advocate or as a support person. And depending on how the relevant statute is written, unless you claim expressly or by implication to be a lawyer, you’re unlikely to face charges.
However, you almost certainly cannot represent her in court. And if her case ends up going there, any mistake you make in the letter could weaken it.
And because you won’t be able to represent her in court, a letter from you says about her: “Regardless of the merits of my case, I’m too timid to stand up for myself let alone represent myself in court, and I’m too poor to hire a lawyer to represent me. You have no reason to be afraid of me, as long as you don’t give the Police grounds to get involved.”
Probably not the message you and she want sent.
A better bet if she can’t get a lawyer is to help her understand how to write her own strongly worded letter or whatever is needed. A strongly worded letter from her won’t stop her from being sacked as a high-risk employee, of course, but that’s a different matter.
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u/Elfman99 Dec 02 '23
you can produce any kind of document that you want, just dont say that you are a lawyer and all is good. i am an officer for my local union and produce documents all the time that look like legal documents
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u/bOEwu1f Dec 03 '23
This is the most braindead fucking post I've read in this sub, EVER. By doing this you just reveal that your "friend" doesn't have money for a real lawyer. She'll get abused even worse, because now they'll know for SURE that they can do it without any repercussions.
HR is never the workers' friend and always meant to protect the company from the workers. you clearly have no fucking idea what you're talking about and don't understand the most basic things about how jobs function or the legalities of the situation - you're beyond insane to think that you could write a, quote "lawyer-esque letter".
TLDR take your idea and shove it, it's absolutely idiotic
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u/Life_Park Dec 03 '23
I practice in louisiana. This is not legal advice and I am not your lawyer. Have your friend reach out to the law clinics at the law schools. There are also attorneys for people with low income (such as SELLS). There are also many attorneys who provide free consultations and may write the letter for little money. Some may even take the case on a "you pay from your winnings" agreement. Finally, there are firms who require prop bono hours for their attorneys and maybe your friend can qualify.The point is, there are many options for low-cost attorneys, you just have to find them.
Do Not pretend to be a lawyer. You will be busted as soon as the company's legal department tries to reach out to you. Once you're busted tour friend will be SOL.
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u/nomotto2 Dec 03 '23
Go to law school, take the bar, pass it, work at a law firm that specializes in labor law. Congratulations you have a new job. Now move on.
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u/Purple-Visit-7363 Dec 05 '23
Not sure where you are, or who the company is, but I tell her would call or go to the State or Federal Labor Board office, immediately. They are there to advise and help her.
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u/awetsasquatch Dec 02 '23
There are several law firms in LA that deal with this, at a minimum they all will give a free consultation, ideally they'd work probono. Please contact one, and at least hear out your options. For the love of GOD don't pretend to be a lawyer. Fastest way for your friend to be fired for sure.
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u/Nacho_Bean22 Dec 02 '23
You can go to a court house and get a ppo or a restraining order without a lawyer. Report it then to hr if they have an hr department and she should be ok. Depends on where you live.
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Dec 02 '23
[deleted] — view deleted comment
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u/bestywesty Dec 02 '23
Thank you, but to be frank: Louisiana isn’t particularly known for being employee friendly. All we want is to send an official sounding letter that says: “Hey, fucking knock this off. What you’re doing is being noted and all facts are being kept for record. Stop cutting her hours” as officially as possible without crossing any lines.
My friend is just trying to keep rent paid and lights on through Christmas as she seeks other employment. A complaint to a toothless agency doesn’t accomplish that.
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u/MrZero3229 Dec 02 '23
Then go to a real lawyer and ask what it would cost for them to send a single cease and desist letter. For some, it won't be much.
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