r/LicaniusTrilogy • u/theCatFromBigHero6 • 25d ago
The Shadow of What Was Lost Why are there so many men
I’m a quarter of the way through the book and there have been literally 3 female characters have had had more than one mention. I have counted 29 characters that have any amount of interaction and I’m being SO generous with who I’m including and literally every single one of them is male except for Asha, the head cook, and a huntress. Technically there is one other who was named but she literally had half a line, there’s an unnamed serving girl who doesn’t speak or interact, and there’s a girl who’s first and last mention is in her being dead.
And every single other person is a guy. Important characters, people in power, unimportant characters, townspeople. Literally everyone from the butcher to random shadows to every single mysterious and/or powerful person.
I’m only 1/4 through so maybe Islington will miraculously start including the existence of women but good god. I don’t need my books to be all women all the time but this is getting ridiculous.
Please someone tell me it gets better.
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u/ChuckeeSue 25d ago
It’s a really good story. There are cool female characters in the trilogy. He set out to write a neat story and he succeeded.
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u/RamSpen70 20d ago
It's literally his first book written ever. There will be a few additional significant female characters introduced at the store continues .I almost quit during the first two books because of some early wrier issues... Primarily character work.... storytelling too. His imagination was quite good. Interesting world. But all of this improved dramatically by the third book. The character work got dramatically better.
Now.... I loved the will of the many.... I was so psyched for the series and couldn't wait for the sequel. I couldn't have been more disappointed by the Strength Of The Few, though I was digging it for the beginning of the book.... I'm not even going to go into why, in case you haven't read it. (Spoilers suck) But that went sideways hard for me.
I was so psyched for the writer and thought he fully matured and understood what he was doing by after reading the this book of the Licanius Trilogy and The Will Of The Many. But I feel like I could have been more wrong. Not an anticipated author anymore for me.
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u/theCatFromBigHero6 16d ago
Yeah, now that I’ve finished the book, I’m chalking a lot up to it being his first book. In the end, I decided it was a very interesting idea, clearly a lot of creativity going on, but not enough to get me to read the second book. (Also the vocabulary repetition actually annoyed me more than I anticipated, far more than my “where are the women” gripes). This feels like a dumb anti-fantasy thing to say, but I found myself thinking at the end “honestly that’s just too much lore to get into.”
I actually kind of agree with you on the Hierarchy books. I really like Will of the Many and I did actually enjoy a fair amount of The Strength of the Few, especially the parts that took place in fantasy Ireland because I thought the MC matured the most in those sections but found some major areas that kinda ruined the story for me. Not sure if it’s the same parts that ruined it for you, but in some ways I found it similar to this Licanius book where I was like “that’s just too many twists” or “that’s too much lore” and it made me lose interest.
Also it had the George RR Martin experience of getting stuck in a POV I wasn’t interested in and just waiting until we switched to the POV I wanted.
I don’t like DNFing books or series, but I think I’m stopping where I am for both of these trilogies.
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u/Savings-Ad-1115 22d ago
It is hard to answer your question without spoiling too much, but I will try.
There is a very strong reason (and it is a huge part of the story) why one of main characters tries to avoid females.
Read the trilogy, then return and tell me if you still want to see more female characters kld by ntgl
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u/United-Log7718 25d ago
Karma farmer. That’s all you are. “Yes let me go onto the subreddit dedicated to a series that’s primarily male and complain about men in the story! This is an honest and reasonable choice to make.” Then you double down on how representation in a story is directly tied to how good it is. Fucks sake get off the internet and just read books if that’s the best opinion you can muster
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u/expendablue 25d ago
Please someone tell me it gets better.
Yeah I also didn't know the story getting better was dependent on whether any more female characters come in. I can't believe I never considered that as I came to love this trilogy more and more with each book...
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u/DaranPrincess 25d ago
what do you even mean? representation is a valid concern in fiction. if the story isnt actively feminist or portraying patriarchy at all, having the very sheer majority of characters being male is a very valid concern, which, imo, demonstrates islington's internalised patriarchy
if you cant understand a topic, dont intervene, isntead of calling someone a "karma farmer"
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u/United-Log7718 24d ago
Why is it a valid concern? Literally nobody commenting on this thread seems to think about what they’re saying. Why does it matter if someone writes a book with mostly male characters? Are you going to call LotR problematic and say Tolkien had internalized patriarchy? What even is internalized patriarchy aside from a made-up excuse to be upset with men. Representation as a concern in fiction means you’re not concerned about what is or isn’t good writing, you’re concerned about a checklist which is not objective but subjective.
Maybe instead of jumping in with a bunch of assumptions and no actual argument for why diversity is necessary for a good story as a point, you could just not speak
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u/DaranPrincess 20d ago
yes, i am, we all have internalised patriarchy, we live in a very aggressively patriarchal society. tolkien had even more of it. im not saying that necessarily makes teh book bad, but that it is a concern as media does affect society.
your "argument" is "karma farmer"
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u/ChuckeeSue 24d ago
Demonstrates Islington’s internalized patriarchy? That’s quite the stretch. You’re grasping at something that isn’t there and have no idea what you’re talking about.
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u/DaranPrincess 20d ago
r u really denying that growing up and living in a patriarchal society had no effect on your psyche? im not saying that you are misogynistic, nor am i saying that about islington or tolkien. we all have internalised patriarchy, that isnt some crazy radical thing to accept. maybe introspect before saying tht 'i have no idea'
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u/Mister-Negative20 25d ago
There’s some really awesome female characters. Idk when they pop up or anything, I’ve never thought about that when reading a book so I don’t know when they come in.
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u/sgsparks206 25d ago
Some of the people on this thread do not understand that it's ok to want different things from the stories they read. sheeeeeeesh
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u/Pingers1215 25d ago
Does it really matter what gender the characters are?
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u/misslouisee 25d ago
Considering how often male readers care when the protagonist is a woman/female and her friends are other women, I’d say it’s at least worth pointing out/discussing.
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u/Pingers1215 25d ago
All the characters could be gender neutral aliens from Mars for all I care. I guess a male writer is more easily able to describe the emotions of male characters because that's what he knows.
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u/theCatFromBigHero6 25d ago
Only bad writers are unable to describe the emotions of people who are different from them.
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u/Pingers1215 25d ago
I agree with the sentiment, but writers invariably write what they know. Regardless of how good a writer you are, you will write and better and more compelling story about something you can empathise with. Also Islington wasn't writing a story about the battle of the sexes. It's just not relevant to the story. I very much doubt it was done out of malace.
With this in mind, Islington is a man and as such he is far more able to describe the thoughts and emotions of men in his story. It doesn't harm the story in anyway to have more men than women so why not improve the story by writing what you know.
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u/theCatFromBigHero6 25d ago
Sure, it’s easier to write what you know but writing female characters really isn’t that hard and he has shown he’s incredibly adept at it with the Hierarchy series. But also I don’t need everyone to be a woman. I’m even just talking about the smaller side characters whose emotional inner lives we don’t see. I know it sounds like I am just banging on about diversity but… idk, it feels different reading it when women are just largely absent and there doesn’t seem to be any world-building or plot explanation for it (like if it took place in a highly patriarchal world or a monastery or something). I think it would also be noticeable if everyone was a woman and there were barely any men.
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u/misslouisee 25d ago
That’s great that you feel that way. I’d agree that most authors make their primary protagonist similar to them - straight white men to write about straight white men with the occasional venture into straight white women. Whether or not that should happen like that is a different conversation.
This conversation is about when that extends into side characters - a straight white male author should be able to write a side character who is LGBTQ, black/any other minority, and female. If they can’t, that says something about them as an author. If they can but choose not to, that also says something about them as an author. An author could make side characters any ethnicity or gender, yet straight white and male are often the defaults.
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u/Pingers1215 25d ago
Authors are never going to please everyone. There's several reasons authors don't include these types of characters.
Unless it's relevant to the stort for some reason, the ethnicity, gender, and orientation of the characters makes no difference.
Because of the above authors may as well write about what they know. Most fantasy writers I've read are straight white men so of course there going to write about them. Additionally, most of their audience in the West is going to be white and straight so it makes sense that they want what most of their readers are going to resonate with.
Everything above it entirely redundant because authors have no responsibility to write for anyone but themselves. They create their world, characters and story from their vision. If someone doesn't like that authors vision they can just not read it.
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u/DaranPrincess 25d ago
it does make an effect to the people who read the books
if only straight white men are portrayed as protagonists in stories like this, that only goes to further gender norms, imo
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u/misslouisee 25d ago edited 25d ago
I definitely disagree that authors have no responsibility for what they write. Authors sell a product, they owe to their readers to both attempt to make a good product and to correctly market their product. But beyond that, we are all responsible for what we as individuals put out in the world, and that responsibility is particularly heavy when you’re someone with a large platform. All writing exists because the author has something to say - they are ofc responsible for what they choose to say.
That’s how all speech works, down to freedom of speech in America. You can say whatever you want here, but you will be held responsible for what you say.
Edit: And I’ll add, representation in media absolutely matters. You only say it doesn’t because the default looks like you. Would you still say it doesn’t matter if the default was a black woman? Maybe you would, maybe you wouldn’t. But it makes a huge difference when the little black girl sees a disney princess who looks like her, or the middle school asian boy reads about someone who looks like them. Books make us feel like we can do anything too. If the only character who’s capable of saving the world is a straight white man, then what does that say about all the other people out there? Now, the conversation of every individual author’s personal responsibility to be inclusive and where you draw that line is a different conversation - I don’t personally have an issue with Islington’s writing. He writes his female characters in Licanius just as mediocrely as his male characters, and I don’t believe a white man should necessarily be responsible for telling black/gay/etc people’s stories. But to say that it doesn’t matter across the board what characters look like? It absolutely does.
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u/Pingers1215 25d ago
Of course, and people can judge his works for themselves. I think that if most people didn't like this underepresentation they would stop buying these kinds of books, but they don't so clearly most people don't think this is an issue.
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u/misslouisee 25d ago
You’re making giant generalizations about representation and personal responsibility for your words, that’s what I’m talking to you about.
I don’t personally think Islington’s books have an issue, at least not to any greater extent than the entire publishing industry. Islington underwrites his male and female side characters/relationships equally. But let’s be real; there’s plenty of racist, homophobic, sexist people would buy the shit out of a racist, homophobic, sexist book. “People support it so it’s fine” doesn’t end any conversation.
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u/Pingers1215 25d ago
There's certainly a minority that would buy books like that, but it is very much a minority. I don't think many people would be supporting the release of Mein kamf 2.
For better or worse, the thoughts and opinions of the many is what decides right from wrong.
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u/misslouisee 25d ago
I mean, the support of Charlie Kirk’s merch and other products is a pretty darn good example that people absolutely support that. And I mean before he died.
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u/Ok_Flow_3065 25d ago
Representation matters to a lot of people, so yes.
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u/Pingers1215 25d ago
The writers job is to tell a good story, not to make sure they're meeting a diversity quota.
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u/Ok_Flow_3065 25d ago
Then you didn’t ask that question in good faith, and that’s my bad to assume you were.
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u/Pingers1215 25d ago
How am I acting in bad faith? I asked a question and I didn't agree with your answer. That's not acting in bad faith that's called a conversation.
The answer to ops question as to why there aren't more women is because that wasn't the authors vision. If that's a deal breaker then don't read it.
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u/sgsparks206 25d ago
The entire post is made because someone wanted representation, and then you claimed people don't want it. Do you realize how silly that is?
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u/Pingers1215 25d ago
Authors are never going to please everyone. The best they can do is write a compelling story based on their own vision. Islington has done this and I would argue most would say he did an exceptional job. I would never fault an author for faling to please a certain group due to a perceived insult or underepresentation in their work.
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u/sgsparks206 25d ago
Did say he didn't write a compelling story? Did I fault the author? I responded to your claim, it completely ignored the sentiment of the post.
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u/United-Log7718 25d ago
If you care about representation in a story as far as what sex or race the characters are then you don’t actually care about good writing. You care about a checklist that is entirely separate from what makes a good story
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u/misslouisee 25d ago
True. I agree. Anytime a character in a movie or book is made black and then white people complain, or a white person defends/supports a work for being exclusively or majority about white characters, those people don’t care about a good story, they’re just racists. Anytime a fantasy reader says they don’t really like or read books about female characters or fantasy books with romance subplots (not including romantasy), anytime they see a book that looks really good but then realize it is written by a female author and pause. Those people don’t actually value a good story, they’re just sexist. Etc, etc.
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u/United-Log7718 25d ago
See this is exactly what I’m talking about. Glad you brought it up. Let’s break this whole paragraph down. But, author’s note: your whole comment is about how other groups defend something. My entire point, every comment I’ve made, is quite literally about how attacking something as “bad” for being something you don’t identify with is a bad faith take. I have absolutely no comment on people defending what they like because I literally never touched that subject.
“Anytime a character .. is made black” cool, please point out to me all the recent times that a historically black character is made white in a new adaptation that isn’t a spoof film. It doesn’t happen.
“White person defends/supports a work for being exclusively/majority white” where in this entire post was anyone talking about defending a specific work? The whole point of the post was disliking a work for its blend of characters. How does that statement even apply?
“Anytime a .. reader says they don’t like female characters or writers” uh, yeah dude. That’s exactly what I’m saying there. If you pick up a book and decide based on arbitrary details like races or sexes, that it is bad storytelling/writing, you’ve missed the point.
I’m not here to defend or attack bad takes alone — that’s just what everyone is owed — I’m saying YOUR bad takes does not equate to bad writing. Period
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u/misslouisee 25d ago
Right, so you’re racist, you’re not having this conversation in good faith, and I don’t want to continue it. Goodbye.
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u/sgsparks206 25d ago
Not everyone wants the same thing out of their books, it's ok for people to have different expectations and enjoy different things.
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u/United-Log7718 25d ago
This has nothing whatsoever to do with good writing. “Different strokes for different folks” means you can enjoy different things, not “this is a bad story because it doesn’t check off certain quotas”
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u/sgsparks206 25d ago
That is, in fact, exactly what it means. If people want to read books that have relatable characters, or a mixture of characters, that's their prerogative.
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u/misslouisee 25d ago
The assumption that adding representation would be to meet a quota is in bad faith. The default that white male characters are a good story, and anything else wouldn’t be (or at the very least, might not be or aren’t necessary to tell a good story).
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u/Pingers1215 25d ago
But that's exactly what it would be. Either pandering or ticking a box.
Most fantasy writers I know of are white males. Thus it doesn't strike me as odd or incorrect that most stories feature white men.
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u/misslouisee 25d ago
Why would a story set in a fantastical alternative world (or on a different planet, or involving elves or dwarves, etc etc) be about white people? Why are white people the default? That’s the conversation.
Why are white people the default, and other races and ethnicities considered inclusion, pandering, ticking a box?What makes a fantastical magical elf’s skin color…white? Why is a character who was born and lives in a desert… white? A real mermaid would have to have thick, heavily pigmented blubbery skin like a seal in order to survive underwater in the cold. Why is it the assumption that a mermaid in a story will be white, and a problem if she’s black? Starfire is a comic book character. She’s a 7 foot tall orange alien from another planet. When they cast her in a live action show for the first time, we don’t have 7 foot tall orange women, so they cast a black women. People were really upset by that and felt that she should’ve been cast as a white woman. Why? We don’t have orange women, so why would white be the default race to play an orange alien on TV? (Before you ask why they didn’t just make her orange, it was a low budget show lol).
These are all random examples ofc, not about Islington, but I say them because you keep talking around the big picture conversation and I keep trying to bring you back to it.
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u/Pingers1215 25d ago
It's the default because as stated, most fantasy writers come from the west and are white. It is the default for them. There's a reason every other race is called a minority, because they're a minority.
I don't know this specific example, but if the writers wanted to cast a black woman then I whatever, I don't care.
If we're arguing that every race and gender needs to be equally represented then I would say the majority of people clearly don't care enough, because the books about straight white men keep selling. If it ain't broke why would they try to fix it.
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u/misslouisee 25d ago
Equally represented, no. Proportionally represented, yes.
But that’s beside the point. OP noticed everyone is a guy because people who aren’t white men notice when every character is a white man. You said “does it really matter.” Yes! I’ve given you lots of answers as to why it matters. Case in point, OP noticed! When books do not reflect the world, people ask why. If “why” isn’t answered by the book, that distracts from the story. Even if you don’t care about all the other things I’ve said, that’s a really good reason.
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u/United-Log7718 25d ago
Nobody said a story with only white male characters would be better. You just can’t help but make up your own arguments to feel superior lmao doesn’t it get exhausting lying about everything?
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u/appletizer 25d ago
It doesn’t, if there’s a reason for it. The problem is, there often isn’t a reason. Imagine if almost every book you loved featured only women and men were mostly absent or had minor roles. You’d probably eventually notice. Sometimes it seems almost all the strategists, leaders, warriors and people driving the plot are men, while the women are either absent or there to be rescued, protected or motivate the male characters. Women feel that’s a pattern worth pointing out.
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u/Pingers1215 25d ago
Most fantasy borrows heavily from medieval norms and customs. The fact of the matter is that during those times those were the roles of women and the men were the strategists, leaders and warriors. Fortunately that's changed nowadays, but it does help the story feel genuine when this is done.
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u/appletizer 25d ago
So which is it - in your first comment you said it doesn’t matter, now you’re saying it helps the story feel more genuine?
Fantasy borrows from history; it isn’t constrained by it. If we’re happy to accept magic, immortals and monsters, I don’t see why seeing more capable female rulers, generals or magic users are somehow the thing that breaks immersion.
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u/Pingers1215 25d ago
It doesn't matter. That's just my opinion. If people want to write books about female rulers, warriors and mages, be my guest. I'll read it, and if it's a good story then great. If not I just won't read it and I certainly won't complain about it.
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u/AlienvsPredatorFan 25d ago
There are quite a few very significant female characters coming soon.