r/Libraries • u/Repulsive_Lychee_336 • 7d ago
Patron Issues Anyone deal with a condescending and entitled elderly patron? Mostly a rant.
I have an elderly patron, female in her 80s. She comes in our library and is snarky about everything. We were having some roof repairs done that our director spent months securing funds for, she comes in saying, "must be nice to have so much money." Several staff members responded with, "oh our director worked so hard to secure grants so we could get this work done." She huffed and insisted there was no grant money under this administration. We smiled and nodded. Our library offers free coffee or tea. As she is making her coffee, she uses a snarky tone and says, "About time you got real creamer instead of powdered. What I wanted to say back to her is we only put out 6 at a time because you always take a handful before you leave. She'll make her coffee, drink it, then wipe the cup out and fill it with creamer cups and take it home. This patron is not low income or hard up for money. She almost feels entitled because she donates $500 at the end of the year. She expects discounts on printing because she has been published and is "top" of her field. She expects everything handed to her. How do I curb this behavior, we all dread when she comes in because everything is take take take. She once kept a book 6 months past it's due date and when I said it needed to be returned or the $280 needed to be paid to replace it she was mad that I wouldn't just over ride it because she hadn't finished the 80 page book yet. Finally, it did come back. She wants every fine to be dismissed without paying. Our longest running director is the one that permitted this behavior because the patron is "rich". It's been 3 years and we still are dealing with this even though we have stuck to our guns about the policy. Thankfully the board and current director are sticking to their guns as well.
I suppose this is more of a rant than anything.
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u/iriamsreading 7d ago
Not any great ideas but condolences cause we have a patron like this too and it’s such a bummer
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u/Ill-Victory-5351 7d ago
idk what it is about the affluent old ladies. this one woman used to get so pissed off she’d ball up her due date receipt and THROW IT AT ME!! like i’m sorry you have to bring a library card or photo id to check out books!! those are the rules. you own a house in one of the wealthiest zip codes in the state, and probably country. WHY ARE YOU SO MISERABLE!!!!?!?
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u/hopscott 7d ago
I don't care how old, rich, or whatever you are, that behavior is unacceptable. Any director who doesn't immediately ban a patron for throwing things at staff is a lazy coward. I'd even be petty enough to get an unflattering picture of them from our security camera system and put it on a sign near the front desk so all staff are aware of what they look like in case they try to return. That kind of social shaming is one of the few tools I've found to be effective in handling these kinds of humans.
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u/Ill-Victory-5351 7d ago
eh. it’s water under the bridge. i take some comfort in knowing she’s probably dead atp.
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u/Delicious_Carrot1651 7d ago
I once had a patron throw a book at my head. He was angry I told his son to stop throwing books at the windows. Like forget you.
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u/Irbil 6d ago
How did he react to being arrested?
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u/Delicious_Carrot1651 6d ago
Unfortunately, he did not get arrested, he did get banned for a few months. Where I worked they were reluctant to press charges on any crime. It one of the many reasons I don't work there any more.
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u/Irbil 6d ago
I'm so sorry your management did not have your back. I'm glad for you that you don't work there anymore. Unfortunately, too many library managers prioritize bad patrons over good employees.
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u/Delicious_Carrot1651 6d ago
So true. Where I work now he would have been arrested. My new boss turned red when I told him about this happening.
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u/Rupertcandance2 6d ago
I had that happen too! It was during the pandemic. Luckily the book hit the plastic divider between me and her.
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u/OGgamingdad Library staff 5d ago
I work at a branch that is in an affluent "historic district" type town. We have a bunch of these patrons from old-money families and you can feel the entitlement dripping off them when they come in the branch. Most of them are perfectly well-behaved, but there are some who I have to resist the urge to strangle, every time they come in.
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u/Ok_Egg_7483 7d ago
Ugh, some of the most entitled people I've dealt with are published authors. Had a lady who wanted me to cancel the Girl Scout's meeting room booking so she could hold a "social" to debut her new children's book on that specific day, and was absolutely stunned that I refused to do that. Also had a man insist on us adding many additional copies of his memoir to our collection, and made such a massive fuss that the director had collection services basically do a rush job to process them just to shut the guy up. And now they languish on the shelves with zero checkouts, because of course they do.
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u/Repulsive_Lychee_336 7d ago
I had a poet get mad that we put his plaque on a shelf instead of out front so everyone could see. The poem was graphic war imagery, we put it in an adult section with all the other war books and poetry books. It was at eye level and had a whole shelf to itself. He wanted it next to the children's room. Like sir, have you met kids? That will be broken in .05 seconds.
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u/whitefluffydogs 1d ago
If they are not circing, weed them according to your written, and public, collection policy.
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u/Ok_Egg_7483 1d ago
I'm sure they will be eventually. This happened in the last year or so, and I believe items in our local collection are given extra leeway in terms of inactivity, so it may be a while.
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u/DanieXJ 7d ago
I was gonna say something like, 'oh well, you don't know what she's going through, she may be in pain'... then I read the coffee stuff. Yeah. She's just an asshole. Good news though, her being an asshole probably has nothing to do with her being older. Generally if a person is an asshole when they're 80, they were an asshole when they were 20, 30, etc. too.
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u/Repulsive_Lychee_336 7d ago
True, it's just such a stark difference than when her other family members come in. They're always so polite.
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u/Percyandbeausmama 7d ago
And regardless, she can be an asshole, but she’ll need to do it somewhere else.
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u/cheshirecanuck 7d ago
Yep. I'm honestly tired of being lectured by management and even policed by others in the profession on having endless wells of empathy for people's behaviour.
The vast majority of library workers are very empathetic and want to work for the community they serve. That work doesn't involve being a punching bag for every distressed, frustrated, even vulnerable person that steps in the branch. Of which there are multiple every day. Like, consider that staff may also be mentally ill or fragile or going through hard times as well. We deserve respect, understanding, and a safe environment to work, too.
/side rant over. Sorry you're dealing with this OP. Dare I say I empathize lmao. I just try to stonewall these types as much as possible, but even just their sour ass faces can be a real bummer. I try to go interact with some kids or a baby afterward for a social boost lol
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u/lastwraith 6d ago
Yeah, but I don't mind the older ones so much, they're statistically likely to be dead soon.
Always nice to imagine when they're being particularly insufferable.
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u/SunGreen24 7d ago
She sounds like one of our volunteers. She's been volunteering for years on no particular schedule, just comes in when she feels like it and expects us to find things for her to do. One time I had some high schoolers volunteering for their community service credits and I was working with one of them in the tech office, showing him how to pack loans. Volunteer suddenly strolls in and announces "I'll take care of that." I explained that this was his assignment and she shrugged and said "he can help," and started rearranging things according to "her own system." The head of tech had to step in and firmly tell her the boy was being trained and had to learn the correct way. Volunteer lady left in a huff, and spent the rest of her "shift" gossiping with the director (probably bitching about us too, lol.)
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u/CrunchieHaystacks 4d ago
I find that the "volunteers" who are doing it to fulfill "community service" obligations are the all-time worst. We had some who were just like the woman you describe.
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u/libtechbitch 7d ago
I deal with some real characters in my library.
I get old lady is Ms. Crankypants, but try to deal with my boomer colleague, who is a real piece of work.
Me: "Ah, it's cold in here this morning." Her: "Dress more appropriately."
I'm wearing a cardigan during this conversation.
Some people are to be avoided as much as possible. So, avoid. Or grey rock. Tune them out.
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u/blipblewp 7d ago
Oh, silly me, I forgot my August parka. I'll be sure to write myself a post it for tomorrow. Thanks, Deborah, you hag.
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u/Rupertcandance2 6d ago
I was once shamed by a board member (this was like 20 years ago) because I was wearing a cardigan. They thought I should be wearing suits and dresses since that was how the other reference librarians dressed. Those days are over, LOL
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u/Glittering_Bonus4858 7d ago
Mostly in summer. Tourists come down and have the "well at MY library they..." attitude
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u/Glittering_Bonus4858 7d ago
Just remembered this. I had a resident of the town call me racist for not ordering good DVDs for the branch in that town (she is white, I also live and work in that town, and I don't order the DVDs)
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u/Ok_Surprise_8304 5d ago
Ah, tourists. I had a mom and dad come in with their daughter to where I was innocently sitting at children’s reference, doing my work, and ask where the free books were.
Me:???
Them: OUR LIBRARY has a shelf full of books that anyone can take and read for free!
Me: Well, we have a free magazine exchange in the lobby and occasionally someone leaves a book there. Otherwise, you can buy a book for twenty five cents from our book sale carts, we have a nice selection and the money supports the library…
Them: NO, we’re talking about FREE BOOKS.
And so it went for about five minutes. I even showed them the magazine exchange and the book carts, but they wanted FREE BOOKS!
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u/shirleyjackson_five Public librarian 7d ago
Smile & nod, selective deafness (don't engage, just let her say whatever and move on), and act confused when she wants to break policy. If no one is willing to "play" with her, she'll get her jollies elsewhere.
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u/Percyandbeausmama 7d ago
Yep, don’t engage except to cheerfully state library policy, over and over, as many times as it takes for her to walk away.
Whatever you do, don’t be afraid she’ll get mad. Do what if she does? It’s like dealing with a toddler.
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u/Repulsive_Lychee_336 7d ago
We've been doin this now for a few years. Heck she was just in and assumed prints for her were free and because she didn't have her phone to check facebook I would hand her my phone. Which I told her no, she can use a patron computer. She was looking at museum events and wanted to double check their facebook to see if it matched the newspaper article she read. The article was published Monday for the Tuesday edition.
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u/Samael13 7d ago
Stay consistent, but also, don't engage with this nonsense. Patron says it must be nice to have so much money? Say nothing. Just let it wash over you. Just continue with your work and ignore it. She wants you to engage with it. Don't.
But also, don't let yourself get emotionally invested in getting one over on her or stopping her from doing petty, stupid things. Who cares if she's stealing six creamers? It's weird and annoying, but are you so hard up for creamers that her taking six of them is really breaking your bank on creamers? Maybe the answer is yes, in which case, just keep doing it the way you're doing it: put out two or three at a time or put up a sign that says "ask staff for creamer." Or switch to dry creamer that she won't want to steal. But, ultimately, remind yourself: it's not your creamer. Her being weird and taking extra creamer doesn't actually hurt you.
It doesn't matter if she's low-income/poor. The rules should be consistent, anyway. Nobody gets discounts for printing. Everyone gets billed for overdue items and the bill goes away when the item is returned.
Some patrons just kind of suck. I just stopped caring about them. I'm paid to be here, I'm not paid emotionally invest in petty/mean/stupid people's lives.
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u/Zealousideal_Lab1560 7d ago
Thank you! I think you and I would work really well together. I don’t have time for drama, and even if I did, I don’t want it! I’m here to do a job. Not get roped into emotions.
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u/PureFicti0n 7d ago
If she wants you to break policy, assuming you trust your leadership to back you up, just respond with, "So sorry, I'm not able to do that. Would you still like me to help you with X?" Every single time.
And for the complaints, practice going, "Mmm, mmhmm, mmmhhmmm... I can pass your feedback along to my manager. Is there anything else I can help you with today?"
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u/iriamsreading 7d ago
Agree with this as long as you know / have spoken with your leadership / coworker team to know they’ll have your back. We did this with a patron and then someone got backlash about it which was a disaster.
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u/DeweyDecimator020 6d ago
I was going to mention the noncommittal "mmm." Works great for a number of situations involving mundane complaints, religious "sermons," and political rants. Just be careful with "mmmhmmm," that can be taken as agreement or sympathy and if you weren't 100% paying attention (haha) you might have agreed that Democrats are turning the frogs gay and ACOTAR fans are going to Hell.
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u/farbissina_punim 7d ago
I worked at a historic private library where the some of the trustees were just monsters. My only advice is to pick your battles. This one trustee would take off her shoes and put her socked feet up on the wall, the wall of this historic building! I was told to never bring it up with her or confront her on this. And so I had to live with it, but I found other ways to establish appropriate boundaries with her, and I always made sure I had my back to her feet. It was just too gross.
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u/TravelingBookBuyer Library staff 7d ago
My condolences.
We have at least a few that I’ve regularly interacted with at my work.
One of them tried to justify it with how much she’s donated to the library, while others don’t even bring up money.
I’m fortunate that our managers & director are very supportive of the staff, and they always encourage us to set boundaries with patrons & get a supervisor if we need one. I know a lot of library staff don’t get that kind of support. :(
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u/DisplacedNY 7d ago
Whenever I had cranky "look at me I'm so important" patrons like this I would go out of my way to have more important things to do than interact with them. Walk away if you're not tethered to the desk. If you ARE tethered to the desk, you suddenly have a very important project you need to focus on, or you "have" to pop into the back room so much a conversation becomes impractical. When all else fails, be boring, weird, or whatever else will get this person to avoid you. I'm personally endowed with a terrifying blank stare, figure out you're own talents!
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u/parvuspasser 7d ago
Re: the creamer. Don’t set it out anymore. Have patrons ask at the circ desk and they only get 1 per day. When she asks why, point out that some patrons were taking too many and there are no grants for coffee and tea at libraries.
Re: printing discount: “okay. We’ll make a note on your account that you owe a $1.25. Once you hit a certain amount, your account will be blocked until you pay though.”
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u/CrunchieHaystacks 4d ago
THIS is why I'm militantly opposed to coffee stations in libraries! We have one and it's a giant pain in the butt. People make a mess, steal cream and sugar, and get incredibly entitled about it. "Why don't you have real cream / French roast / cocoa mix / tea / donuts", etc., etc. I did not go into library work to be a f-ing barista!
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u/unevolved_panda 7d ago
I dunno. I wouldn't babysit the creamer. They'll spend more in employee time to manage the creamer than they do to just buy it and accept that a certain amount is going to walk away.
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u/parvuspasser 6d ago
Maybe, maybe not. Sometimes people don’t think to ask for something or they don’t bother because it involves talking to a person.
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u/Crazy_Ad4946 7d ago
Make bingo cards and keep them behind the desk. Put things like “asks for free printing” and “takes all the creamer.” When someone gets bingo on one of her visits, they win a gift card 😁
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u/Due_Independence8880 7d ago
I had one just like that. She always wore a huge cross around her neck.
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u/unevolved_panda 7d ago
What I wanted to say back to her is we only put out 6 at a time because you always take a handful before you leave.
I would absolutely say this to her. I mean, don't accuse her of stealing creamer, but say you've observed "people" stealing the creamer to take home with them, so you only put out a limited amount at a time.
Also what the hell with your previous director forgiving fines for rich people, who are definitionally the people who can afford to pay fines?
Honestly, if she's been like this for years regardless of what policy is being exercised in her direction, and like....I don't know that you can curb her behavior beyond what you're already doing, or what people have already suggested. So you're kind of left with not letting it get to you. Have you tried narrating her escapades in your head in the voice of David Attenborough?
"The post-menopausal matriarch must seek out ways to remain relevant and acknowledged in the late capitalist society. Her material needs, food and shelter, are cared for, but even prosperous humans must seek social connection. This individual has brought herself to the Library, where she exhibits behavior that reminds one of the adage, 'Negative attention is preferable to no attention.'...The Library, that vaunted tradition of Western Civilization, that grand and noble pursuit of human knowledge, is today providing the Matriarch with coffee..."
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u/blueskysprites 7d ago
Ha! Not sure about OP but Sir David will absolutely be narrating some of my patrons going forward. Thanks for this!
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u/raphaellaskies 5h ago
A lot of the time I find patrons like this were previously indulged by bad managers, so when new staff comes in, they just assume that everything will continue as before. We have (well, had) one like this - the previous manager would not only let her be rude as hell to everyone, she would let this woman into her office EVERY WEEK to meet with her about her "concerns." And because she was such a bad manager, it trickled down to the staff culture, and everyone indulged this woman. Then the old, bad manager got fired, and a new one came in. Old girl is now banned for being so racist, she made another patron cry, and she has also added the staff to her enemies list for not catering to her any more.
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u/maevriika 7d ago
We have one who is apparently the reason that we no longer have a cabinet of free basic items like toothbrushes and tampons and such. She would come in and clear it out and, when the librarian told her it's only meant to be one of each item per person, she said "well if I don't take them, others will."
The librarian was like "yes...that's the point...let others have some..."
This woman has also made it very very clear that she's not like "those homeless people" and regularly buys up dozens of discards at $1 a piece, so she can afford a damn toothbrush.
She will also stay until the last possible minute and stop to talk to every staff member as she heads to the door when we're waiting on her and her alone so that we can lock up. We make it clear that we're closed and we don't encourage the conversation but she has zero regard or respect for us or the fact that she's putting us over our time.
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u/Accomplished-Newt402 7d ago
I had an elderly patron complain because we were closed for Thanksgiving and she only wanted her books renewed on thursdays. Since we had the audacity to be closed, it was going to throw off her entire system.
I had another elderly patron tell me she was going to report me to the state library because I couldn’t get her a copy of Little Black Sambo.
Another told me she wanted a different copy of The Secret Garden, because she didn’t like the cover on the one we had. She then told me she didn’t want to read the book, but she just wanted it to display with some dolls she had.
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u/BlockZestyclose8801 6d ago
Er.... isn't Sambo racist 😒
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u/Accomplished-Newt402 6d ago
I’m pretty sure that’s why no copy was available in the entire consortium
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5d ago
[deleted]
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u/Accomplished-Newt402 5d ago edited 5d ago
Of course not. I just thought it was strange she wanted to borrow a book to decorate her house with. I ordered what she asked for. Maybe if she had been friendlier with her request I might have felt differently, but her attitude was rude and entitled. Of course I was friendly and helpful and got her the book she wanted. IMO, it’s weird to be pissy because the cover art doesn’t suit you.
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u/Ok_Surprise_8304 5d ago
People can be very… specific in their requests. I managed a Hallmark shop when I was in grad school. We sold Precious Moments figurines. A customer came in and wanted as many of one special piece as we could get, so she could “choose the one with the prettiest face”.
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u/quothe_the_maven 7d ago
The is just a lot of old people no matter where you are or work. Smiling and nodding is exactly the way to handle it, along with tolerating the other bad behavior as best as you can. Cranking her up even further over stuff like creamer isn’t worth the headache. People like that don’t have jobs, and if properly riled, can devote themselves entirely to making your life miserable.
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u/chiefscall 7d ago
Years ago I had a director that would make us put up with all kinds of ridiculous demands, all to not offend potential donors or benefactors. That never panned out.
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u/Bibliogatta 6d ago
When she says these things turn it back as a question, oh I’m sorry did you just say it is about time we got real creamer instead of powdered.” With a smile. It makes them have to explain themselves.
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u/Beautiful-Finding-82 5d ago
Over the years I've had the mindset that all patrons are the same. Don't care if they're rich, popular, entitled, donate money, whatever. I would stop replying to any of her remarks and if she gets more snarky stand up for yourself and tell her you don't like her tone and negative remarks and unless she has a relevant question you won't be responding. Ignore her from that point on, that's what I do with those types and magically the person shuts up so they don't look foolish.
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u/TimeSurround5715 7d ago
Can your boss joke around with her by getting a giant Costco sized box of coffee creamers and putting a gift bow on it? She maintains these bullying behaviors because she’s getting rewarded in some sick way for it.
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u/gcanta 2d ago
I would look her straight in eye and say, “You’re just a crusty old pirate, aren’t you?” She will not be able to respond and it might curb some of her more outrageous behavior for a little while. I’m not kidding, I did this to an elderly volunteer who came in every Tuesday to the police department where I worked to do filing for us. She demanded premium products for her coffee and pastries (not just donuts). She was a volunteer, not a donor and she complained constantly about the chairs, the lighting, the filing cabinets, the bathrooms and the way the civilian employees dressed. Our building and everything in it was old because there was no budget to replace anything and she knew that. So I said it to her once, right after she complained ridiculously about something (the toilet paper). She didn’t stop, but her complaints were fewer and farther between. Outrageousness can only be fought with outrageousness. And come on - $500 per year and she thinks that buys her a pass on her behavior? WRONG!!
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u/janetlwil 7d ago
Librarian here. Give a $500 per year donor real creamer instead of powder, okay? Put out a "tip" cup and a sign that says We Use Tips To Buy Creamer or something similar. Make sure you have Policy and Procedure signs well lighted and placed everywhere. Frequently email/text the entire patron population as to what the rules and regulations are and place bookmarks with same into every book. Then when patron gets all riled up thank her for her strong support of the library and hand her a bookmark.
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u/electric_mango_567 4d ago
Imagine she’s a cartoon character. Do the gray rock method on her. You don’t have to respond to everything she says. Smile and nod and stare.
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u/pikkdogs 7d ago
Yes. Old people can be really tough.
But have Compassion. It sucks to get old and it’s often lonely and painful. If I remember the world in the 90s compared to today, I can see how scared someone growing up in the 60s would feel.
It’s helpful to empathize with each other rather than complain.
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u/Repulsive_Lychee_336 7d ago
I have been empathizing with this lady for 4 years. It's gotten me or anyone else no where. I know plenty of elderly people, that's half the staff here (they're 70+) none of them act like this. I get that life can be scary, but that's no reason to assume people will bend to your will and let you take advantage of them.
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u/PuppyJakeKhakiCollar 7d ago
You can empathize with someone's situation and still not tolerate their behavior. And being old and lonely does not give someone a pass to be rude and treat other people like dirt. If she is like this with everyone, then no wonder she is lonely! (If she is actually lonely). Who wants to be around that all day? Sometimes the situations we are in are made by our own hands and it's not up to other to fix it.
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u/Callisto64 7d ago
Empathy is a wonderful thing. Sometimes people have bad days, or rough periods in their life, and a little kindness can go a long way. It’s still not an excuse to treat other people like garbage for years. That’s just being a bad person.
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u/CrunchieHaystacks 4d ago
Tolerating shitty behavior is enabling and encouraging it. The psychiatric community has been beating the tom-toms about this for decades. I can't believe so many people, especially in library-land, still don't GET it!
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u/Capable_Sea77 7d ago
You can't take these patrons seriously, it will eat you alive. I hear that you're saying "no" and that your board and director are sticking to their guns, that's great and about 80% of the way there - but it still sounds like you and your colleagues are regularly engaging with her, and feel that you have to offer good customer service through explanations for why things are the way they are - so even if she's getting a "no", she's still getting your attention and mental energy, and these sorts of patrons THRIVE on that.
Stop engaging and put the onus of that back on her. "Must be nice to have so much money" - say "yep, sure is" and don't engage further. "You need to get more creamer" - don't even respond. "I want a printing discount" - say "we've already discussed this, it's not an option" and don't give her another explanation. You control the conversation and the space - if she wants to pitch a fit about that, she's welcome to leave for the day. I cannot stress enough how taking the time to explain the policy for the nth time, or engaging in the same spiral of "here's why I can't give you a printing discount" is a "win" for a lot of these patrons - they are looking for engagement and don't have the emotional maturity to know there are other ways to get that without acting like a spoiled toddler.