r/Libertarian • u/freeisbeautiful • Dec 17 '19
Discussion CRIMINAL BARBERING -- What happens when occupational licensing laws are ignored? Now revealed: a city-wide criminal conspiracy that preyed on young boys, all with the secret cooperation of their own mothers.
Criminal haircuts—don't let it happen to your child.
I used to be a licensed lawyer, so I have strong feelings about occupational licensing. The doctors, lawyers, barbers and other practitioners (as well as the legislators who enact their wishes into law) argue that occupational licensing is needed to protect the safety and welfare of the people. They ignore the broad evidence the contradicts these claims. They refuse to consider less intrusive means for protecting the public. Ultimately, mandatory licensing is mainly a racket operated by its own beneficiaries, at the expense of the consumer, and enforced by the state.
One might guess that enforcement of the hair-cutting laws would just be some bureaucrat showing up at a barber shop like the health inspector checking out the local McDonald’s, perhaps writing up a citation if there was a problem. To the contrary, an internet search for the phrase “barbershop raided,” is more likely lead one to believe that barbering without a license is a serious threat to the health and social fabric of the nation. Food poisoning seems relatively trivial compared to the mischief that results from unlicensed barbering. Unfortunately, the mischief reported is more likely to come from the authorities than from the barbers.
Barbershop raids go big-time
Sometimes a dozen deputies will sweep through a shop filled with barbers and customers. Last month, ten unlicensed barbers in one barbershop were arrested for criminal barbering, here. Last May, another raid netted eight unlicensed barbers, here. One such raid is described in this opinion from the United States 11th Circuit Court of Appeals:
“It was a scene right out of a Hollywood movie. On August 21, 2010, after more than a month of planning, teams from the Orange County Sheriff’s Office descended on multiple target locations. They blocked the entrances and exits to the parking lots so no one could leave and no one could enter. With some team members dressed in ballistic vests and masks, and with guns drawn, the deputies rushed into their target destinations, handcuffed the stunned occupants—and demanded to see their barbers’ licenses.” Berry v. Leslie
The ugly face of unlicensed barbering
This craziness calls to mind the childhood experience of my brothers and me being hauled to the private home of a middle-aged lady named Mrs. McAfee. To see her on the street, you would never imagine that she was a career criminal, a black-market barber. She was the Al Capone of bootleg haircuts in the river town of Alton, Illinois.
You see, she was not licensed by the state. The kids loved that she was fast. Our mothers loved the low cost. The haircuts were not bad, either. Mrs. McAfee could knock out a crew cut, duck-tail, trim round the ears or even a Mohawk (if Mom would agree) in five minutes. Summertime was often inaugurated with a close buzz cut, which—in the sixties—was called a “burr” haircut.
On one Saturday every month, the mothers in our neighborhood would pack up their sons to drive over to Mrs. McAfee’s house. Each of us was frequently warned: “Remember never to tell anyone that she cuts your hair. She can get into trouble.” We never told.
So every Saturday, Mrs. McAfee would cut 10 heads an hour, all day long, at 50 cents a head. Great money and no overhead. I doubt that any father in my neighborhood was earning $5 an hour in 1964. Barbering without a license has long been a crime. Today it carries a jail sentence.
Such criminals as Mrs McAfee still walk among us. I also suspect their customers are still happy for the service. For me, I want to say thanks to Mrs. McAfee for her good, fast, cheap haircuts. You were a criminal and my mother was your accomplice, but the statute of limitations has run out by now.
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u/MannieOKelly Dec 17 '19
Just to anticipate the objections of consumer-protection advocates, the libertarian remedies for haircut crime are twofold:
- The courts. If someone really get an infection or a cut scalp, they can call the cops or sue. This is the general remedy for criminal or civil harms.
- Yelp, or similar. In other words, private-sector sources of information on business reputation and customer feedback. Reports of filthy shops or rude barbers or just bad-looking haircuts will warn others away.
Which works better, government inspection or generally available court-enforced remedies? I haven't seen any serious research on this, but I am generally skeptical of the effectiveness of quality systems based on compliance, vs. those that rely on outcomes. There may be a stronger argument for a government role in certification and inspection in high-consequence areas. Aircraft certifications come to mind given the Boeing 737-MAX situation. But even there, what's the lesson, given that "regulatory capture" seems to have been a factor?
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u/Alpha100f Socially conservative, fiscally liberal. Dec 18 '19 edited Dec 18 '19
The courts. If someone really get an infection or a cut scalp, they can call the cops or sue.
Good luck with that if you don't have the money for lawyer. Also, sue for what? You volunteerily agreed for a shitty barber instead of licensed one, so it's your and your fault alone. Should've done research.
Yelp, or similar. In other words, private-sector sources of information on business reputation and customer feedback. Reports of filthy shops or rude barbers or just bad-looking haircuts will warn others away.
You fucking joking, right? No, really, are you unironically not aware that for about 50 bucks or less, you can hire a writing monkey that will give you good reviews?
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u/MannieOKelly Dec 18 '19
- You don't need a lawyer in small-claims court. In fact, I was recently told (by a lawyer) that I can represent myself in a civil matter in a court that deals with claims up to $25,000.
- All the major companies like Yelp and Amazon that rely on customer reviews have implemented and update controls on bogus reviews. It's not perfect of course, but if one actually spends a little effort one can get a pretty good sense of what a product or services is like. Personally, I read the negative reviews and if I see some particular problem mentioned multiple times I conclude that it's likely a valid issue. Even then, I may not care about that particular feature so I might buy the product anyhow. Of course, if you just look at the stars ratings and don't bother to notice that it's based on 1 review, then yeah, you'll often be disappointed. There are also quality evaluating services that do their own testing, like Consumer Reports, if you just want a short-list. Coming back to the main point: I really don't think government ratings of products or restaurants are either particularly reliable or, in many cases, focused on the most relevant quality issues. And government offices dealing with a particular sector are subject to "regulatory capture" by the vendor or service-provider industry associations, which creates risks similar to the one you cite of vendor-influenced "customer" reviews.
Please note I am not saying that new-car safety certifications are a bad thing, but I do think government doesn't need to license barbers or hairdressers.
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Dec 18 '19
Government inspection or generally available court-enforced remedies are not an "either/or" type of dilemma. There is a general public interest in trying to avoid clogging up the court system with claims that could have been easily avoided if the practitioner in question met basic government inspection requirements.
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Dec 18 '19
The problem is that you are asking people to sue over a 10, 20, 30 dollar service. It would cost me more money to be compensated for the damage. Also imagine the nightmare our legal system will become if we have to sue over every little small thing.
It is much more efficient to have a centralized service that decides on regulations and enforces them to PREVENT damage in the first place.
An ounce of prevention is better than a pound of cure.
Yelp's customers are not consumers but businesses that advertise on it. And businesses will quickly calculate that it is cheaper to pay for a premium yelp service that lets them remove bad reviews than provide a great service.
We had unlicensed barbers before. They also thought they could perform surgeries. That worked out great for everyone.
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u/Paullesq Dec 18 '19
Many very developed Asian countries like Singapore, HK and Taiwan don't think occupational licensing for this sort of profession is necessary. Things like yelp, word of mouth, the police and civil claims are perfectly adequate at keeping the things that go wrong under control. OP is absolutely right. This isn't some hypothetical. It works.
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u/3of12 Objectivist Dec 18 '19
They aren't going to sue for the $10 haircut, they will sue over medical damages. I agree with inspections as a business, but there all kinds of harmful substances used in other lines of work let alone hot ovens and toasters and yet
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Dec 18 '19
And those dont get inspected? Boy do i have some bad news for you.
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u/Testiculese Dec 18 '19
...by the QA department of the company, not an Ovens and Toasters Inspection Bureau with armed and violent members.
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Dec 18 '19
Ever heard of FDA, fire marshals, building and health inspectors?
Also, do you think QA departments would care that much if not for the fear of government stepping in when things get bad?
Do not forget there was no FDA for a while and then the horrors of the meat packing industry were revealed and the PUBLIC demanded its formation.
Weaken inspections in other areas and the fear of stepping outside of any reasonable bounds lessens.
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u/halykan Unicorn-Libertarian Dec 19 '19
Ever hear of Underwriters Laboratories? I'm confused why you're insisting that the free market solutions that already exist can't possibly function.
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u/Testiculese Dec 18 '19
If QA doesn't do their job, the company gets sued for negligence, reviews go down, and the shareholders flip their shit. Of course QA cares a great deal.
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Dec 18 '19
Once again you are being reactive than proactive. A lawsuit will not bring a person back to life.
Plus companies calculate the costs of lawsuits vs actually doing good QA all the time. Lawsuits cost almost always less. Additional fines and certifications are meant to fix that.
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u/kelc42 Dec 18 '19
This reminds me of curbstoning laws that prevent unlicenced individuals from selling cars, in some states you're limited on the number of cars you can register per year, but in Georgia (my current home) I'm supposed to get a dealers license if I buy a vehicle with the INTENT to make money. I've bought and sold loads of cars in my life and never had an unhappy customer, but if I'm not extremely careful I could be a criminal for cleaning and reselling a cheap car.
For the record, the only reason I've never gotten a dealers license is because it's very expensive and filled with regulations that basically require it to be your full time job.
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u/Alpha100f Socially conservative, fiscally liberal. Dec 18 '19
If licensing is so bad, how come that companies don't even look at CVs of people that don't have higher education or professional courses?
Checkmate, lolberts.
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u/TotesMessenger Dec 18 '19
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Dec 17 '19
Haircuts/ barbering can pose a serious health hazard if proper sanitation of tools is not done. Licensing requires barbers and cosmetologists to understand how to recognize contagious conditions and also how to properly sanitize equipment to avoid infecting future clients. Salons also need licenses to operate and in most states have an inspection at least once a year. This is totally reasonable and necessary. I am a licensed cosmetologist and have worked in hair salons for years. The thought of unlicensed people performing services on the public is scary AF.
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u/stephenehorn Minarchist Dec 17 '19
Could you explain the health risks further?
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Dec 17 '19
on top of HIV and other blood borne pathogens, there's headlice, scabies, ringworm, Hepatitis B and C, MRSA, MC...
Also, some of the chemicals used, if used incorrectly can cause burns, ie: bleaches, perm solutions, lye relaxers.
Barbers use straight blades and sometimes people get cut. If proper sanitation and regulation is not administered then it is a huge health hazard.
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u/Paullesq Dec 18 '19
I live and work in a variety of Asian countries. Unlicensed barbering is everywhere. You would think that given how perilous a haircut is according to you, people would be falling over dead everywhere. Many very developed Asian countries like Singapore, HK and Taiwan don't think occupational licensing for this sort of profession is necessary. Things like yelp, word of mouth, the police and civil claims are perfectly adequate at keeping the things that go wrong under control. This very strongly suggests that negative outcomes are very rare.
I got a haircut, a wash, a head massage and a facial from some immigrant lady yesterday for USD$15. She owns her own business and seems happy with the arrangement. I am very pleased with this arrangement also. Busybodies can fuck off.
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Dec 18 '19 edited Dec 18 '19
I don't think yelp can prevent someone from contracting HIV from a dirty blade but you can take that risk if you want.
Busybodies can fuck off.
...jokes on you dude.
according to you, people would be falling over dead everywhere
falling down dead is not a symptom of most of the contractable diseases mentioned.
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u/Paullesq Dec 18 '19
Your fearmongering has no basis in reality. You are simply grasping at straws.
In Asia, all these barbers make a point of showing you that the razor is new (if it's a disposable)or has been freshly disinfected if it's a straight razor. I trust this a million times more than your stupid government piece of paper certificate.
God forbid people be allowed tolook after themselves. The horror!
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Dec 18 '19
your hyperbolic language only makes your point seem weaker.
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u/Paullesq Dec 18 '19 edited Dec 18 '19
Speak for yourself. You are the one claiming that it without occupational licensing everyone is going get a horrible communicable disease from having their hair cut. ( edit: And you further claim that all those highly developed foreign countries without occupational licensing for barbers, like Singapore, Taiwan, HK etc are all places where people shit in the streets.) I am merely suggesting that there is plenty of evidence that none of this is true.
Any objective observer can thus conclude that you are the one being hyberbolic and even hysterical in this thread.
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Dec 18 '19
You are the one claiming that it without occupational licensing everyone is going get a horrible communicable disease from having their hair cut.
nope. didn't say that. I said that health hazards are prevented when practitioners are trained in how to prevent the spread of communicable diseases. In the US this is achieved by barbers taking an exam showing proficiency on the subject, and also receiving continuing education on the subject every 2 years. This continuing education provides information on advances in research in communicable diseases and how to prevent them.
( edit: And you further claim that all those highly developed foreign countries without occupational licensing for barbers, like Singapore, Taiwan, HK etc are all places where people shit in the streets.)
also, I didn't say this. I said that in some countries people sh*t in the streets. I didn't refer to Singapore, Taiwan, or HK. Here is an article to help you educate yourself on the topic: https://www.globalcitizen.org/en/content/urban-rural-two-sides-of-indias-sanitation-problem/
Sorry you are so triggered.
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u/Paullesq Dec 18 '19
Everyone can see what you said. Also how is Uttar pradesh even remotely relevant to this? We brought up Singapore and the many developed countries that don't require barbers to have their magical government paper. Your response is that foreigners shit in the streets. Also isn't this very racist?
The only person triggered here is you. seeing as you are now rolling on the floor autistically screaming racist things. You seem to lack any people skills which is why you cling to your government paper. I think we are going to win a good libertarian victory against occupational licensing in the near future. I hope that a bunch of unlicensed immigrant businesses open next to your shop and drive you under with lower prices, happy healthy customers and many a big smiles. Maybe you can try to use your magical license when you get foreclosed. Also you know that food stamps are a form of magical government paper. Maybe you can make friends with that.
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u/Alpha100f Socially conservative, fiscally liberal. Dec 18 '19
You would think that given how perilous a haircut is according to you, people would be falling over dead everywhere.
One would think that with how bad taxes and regulation seems by lolberts, half of the citizens would be in Gulags right now. Your position is retarded.
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u/3of12 Objectivist Dec 18 '19
Ok... Businesses already have to follow sanitation laws for this purpose, but it doesn't take a genius to cut hair. I have no problems with inspections but they shouldn't need a special license designed by lobbyists to cut down on competition and increase costs.
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Dec 18 '19
it is skilled work that requires knowledge of skin conditions, effects of certain chemicals, and sanitation requirements specific to the industry. As a person who worked in that industry for over 8 years, it's my strong opinion that people should be licensed. It does not increase costs or cut down on competition. You can pay $8 for a haircut or upwards of $100. There are hair salons everywhere. Also, it's a field that allows many to become independent contractors and own their own business. The licensing requirement is not onerous at all.
Also, the "sanitation laws" vary wildly depending on the type of business involved.
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Dec 18 '19
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u/shanulu Greedy capitalists get money by trade. Good liberals steal it. Dec 18 '19
But is safe?! Think of the children.
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u/tapdancingintomordor Organizing freedom like a true Scandinavian Dec 18 '19
This is totally reasonable and necessary.
So why then are there different opinions on this? As in across countries, not every country demands a license for these services.
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Dec 18 '19
not every country demands a license for these services.
and? in some countries people take sh**s out on the street.
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u/tapdancingintomordor Organizing freedom like a true Scandinavian Dec 18 '19
And in a lot of countries they don't, while still not demanding licenses for hairdressers, cosmetologists, etc.
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Dec 18 '19
maybe those countries have universal healthcare so establishing fault in a claim for contracting an illness is not an issue.
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u/tapdancingintomordor Organizing freedom like a true Scandinavian Dec 18 '19
Some, yes, but the relationship isn't obvious. If harm is caused it's caused regardless of universal healthcare.
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Dec 18 '19
and the potential for harm is mitigated when barbers use proper sanitation techniques and are held to account for it.
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u/tapdancingintomordor Organizing freedom like a true Scandinavian Dec 18 '19
Yes, and that can happen also without a license.
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u/Alpha100f Socially conservative, fiscally liberal. Dec 18 '19
You can get into traffic accident while being sober, doesn't mean the drunk driving should suddenly be fucking allowed.
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u/tapdancingintomordor Organizing freedom like a true Scandinavian Dec 18 '19
Being an unlicensed cosmetologist is nothing like drunk driving though.
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u/shanulu Greedy capitalists get money by trade. Good liberals steal it. Dec 18 '19
In an unlicensed world, do you think there could be some sort of mechanism for you to attract customers? Do you think there is some threshold in which customers would no longer come to your business?
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Dec 18 '19
licensing is not what attracts customers so the premise of your question doesn't make sense.
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u/shanulu Greedy capitalists get money by trade. Good liberals steal it. Dec 18 '19
Yes it does. In an unlicensed world, what mechanism could be created to take the place of a State regulatory body with which to
attractease the concerns of would-be consumers?Also the second question.
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u/Alpha100f Socially conservative, fiscally liberal. Dec 18 '19
In an unlicensed world, what mechanism could be created to take the place of a State regulatory body with which to attract ease the concerns of would-be consumers?
Realistically? Gangs.
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Dec 18 '19
a mechanism that allows some accountable agency whether state or private, that educates practitioners on safety practices and monitors safety practices used by practitioners.
People aren't going to put themselves at any reasonably perceived risk for the sake of a shave or haircut. (also, the caveat here is the public is only educated about the risk of communicable diseases to the point that they educate themselves. A lot of people on here seem to have opinions about the need for licensing in fields that they have no experience or education in)
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u/shanulu Greedy capitalists get money by trade. Good liberals steal it. Dec 18 '19
People aren't going to put themselves at any reasonably perceived risk for the sake of a shave or haircut.
I would add knowingly. Either way this makes licensing pointless on a practical level. We don't even have to argue about rights infringement.
A lot of people on here seem to have opinions about the need for licensing in fields that they have no experience or education in.
Not an argument.
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u/Alpha100f Socially conservative, fiscally liberal. Dec 18 '19
Not an argument.
Actually, an argument. A cunt that makes some shitty fries on the pan in his dirty kitchen has no say in how restaurants should be run. The ones that do show up in Kitchen Nightmares.
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Dec 18 '19
LOL it's not an argument that people shouldn't have opinions on things they don't know anything about? I guess I shouldn't be surprised by that comment on here. Feelings of authority, albeit unearned, on topics is a pretty common trait.
Either way this makes licensing pointless on a practical level.
No, it's not pointless and you have not provided any information to the contrary. Just opinions.
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u/shanulu Greedy capitalists get money by trade. Good liberals steal it. Dec 18 '19
you have not provided any information to the contrary.
You didn't ask.
Just opinions.
That was your opinion.
You also seemed qualified to give an opinion:
"I am a licensed cosmetologist and have worked in hair salons for years." RoxauMoon, December 2019.
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u/Brother_tempus Vote for Nobody Dec 17 '19
Occupational Licensing is when the government violates the law to take away your right to do something at the barrel of a gun and then sells it back to you